Jesus is coming sooner than some think!

[Woody]

Quote:

"So I will be your representative in heaven. The Father beholds not your faulty character, but He sees you as clothed in My perfection. " DA 357

[John317]

Those who are true to God need not fear the power of men nor the enmity of Satan. In Christ their eternal life is secure. Their only fear should be lest they surrender the truth, and thus betray the trust with which God has honored them.

It is Satan's work to fill men's hearts with doubt. He leads them to look upon God as a stern judge. He tempts them to sin, and then to regard themselves as too vile to approach their heavenly Father or to excite His pity. The Lord understands all this. Jesus assures His disciples of God's sympathy for them in their needs and weaknesses. Not a sigh is breathed, not a pain felt, not a grief pierces the soul, but the throb vibrates to the Father's heart.

The Bible shows us God in His high and holy place, not in a state of inactivity, not in silence and solitude, but surrounded by ten thousand times ten thousand and thousands of thousands of holy intelligences, all waiting to do His will. Through channels which we cannot discern He is in active communication with every part of His dominion. But it is in this speck of a world, in the souls that He gave His only-begotten Son to save, that His interest and the interest of all heaven is centered. God is bending from His throne to hear the cry of the oppressed. To every sincere prayer He answers, "Here am I." He uplifts the distressed and downtrodden. In all our afflictions He is afflicted. In every temptation and every trial the angel of His presence is near to deliver.

Not even a sparrow falls to the ground without the Father's notice. Satan's hatred against God leads him to hate every object of the Saviour's care. He seeks to mar the handiwork of God, and he delights in destroying even the dumb creatures. It is only through God's protecting care that the birds are preserved to gladden us with their songs of joy. But He does not forget even the sparrows. "Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows."

Jesus continues: As you confess Me before men, so I will confess you before God and the holy angels. You are to be My witnesses upon earth, channels through which My grace can flow for the healing of the world. So I will be your representative in heaven. The Father beholds not your faulty character, but He sees you as clothed in My perfection. I am the medium through which Heaven's blessings shall come to you. And everyone who confesses Me by sharing My sacrifice for the lost shall be confessed as a sharer in the glory and joy of the redeemed.

He who would confess Christ must have Christ abiding in him. DA 357

[Kountzer]

It has been 156 years, give or take, since 1844. Compared to eternity that is just a blink of the eye.

Noah preached 120 years. They had other religions then. They had false prophets and mega preachers saying smooth things. They laughed at Noah and his message just like they are scoffing at the sda idea that Jesus' return is imminent. There are a lot of parallels.

Personally, if I didn't believe this msg I'd be out of here. A lot of churches do the peripheral stuff as good or better. Praise music, praise dance, preaching, you name it, they can do it better.

DB

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Has there been a "delay"? What's He waiting for anyway-- a certain time, or something else?

"But like the stars in the vast circuit of their appointed path, God's purposes know no haste and no delay." DA 32

Ellen White doesn't contradict the above statement. What must be considered is the context of that quote from DA. It is dealing with the First coming of Christ, not the Second. The Second Coming is far different matter. As I said before, the very year of the first coming was predicted in Bible prophecy, in Daniel 9. On the other hand, no one knows the exact time of the Second Coming because God is not waiting for a certain time to occur. He's waiting for a certain condition, as the following statements make clear:

“Had the purpose of God been carried out by His people in giving to the world the message of mercy, Christ would, ere this, have come to the earth, and the saints would have received their welcome into the city of God.”—“Testimonies for the Church,” Vol. VI, p. 450.

“If every soldier of Christ had done his duty, if every watchman on the walls of Zion had given the trumpet a certain sound, the world might ere this have heard the message of warning. But the work is years behind. While men have slept, Satan has stolen a march upon us.”—Id., Vol. IX, p. 29.

[Woody]

Quote:

"But like the stars in the vast circuit of their appointed path, God's purposes know no haste and no delay." DA

GOD's purposes know NO haste and NO delay.

Perhaps we could have a discussion on what things qualify as GOD's purposes and whether there were any exceptions implied in this statement.

I prefer to believe in an all wise God .... who knows what HE is doing. I believe HE is in control. And things will play out according to HIS will.

[John317]

Quote:

"But like the stars in the vast circuit of their appointed path, God's purposes know no haste and no delay." DA

GOD's purposes know NO haste and NO delay.

Perhaps we could have a discussion on what things qualify as GOD's purposes and whether there were any exceptions implied in this statement.

I prefer to believe in an all wise God .... who knows what HE is doing. I believe HE is in control. And things will play out according to HIS will.

Was it God's will for Lucifer and 1/3 of the angels to rebel? No, and yet God knew what He was doing and He was still in control, wasn't He?

Was it God's will for Adam to fall? (Notice this is different from asking if God was caught by surprise or if God knew ahead of time what Adam would do.)

Was it His will for there to be a delay in Israel's entering into the Promised Land?

Yes, of course God knows the end from the beginning. That's not the question. The question is, was it God's will for those things to happen?

Ellen White and the Bible say plainly that the church can hasten or delay the Second Coming. In fact, Ellen White says it in unmistakable terms.

It was not God's will for World War I and WW 2 to happen. He's allowed those things to happen because of the response of the church to the messages He sent to us. And Ellen White says we may have to continue many more years in this world due to insubordination, but we should not think that it is because of God's will.

That does not mean God does not know what He is doing or that He is not in control in the ultimate sense.

God knew what He was doing and He was in control during the Exodus, but He allowed the Israelites to do many things outside of God's pleasure and will. He allowed them to cause a delay in going in to the Promised Land.

The same applies to the church today. There has been a delay.

[Bravus]

It's an interesting question: do we see any progress toward this condition of the church? Probably depends who you ask. Many would probably say we see regress. Which suggests he may never return. I'm interested in how this notion of the church ties in with the doctrine of Laodicea, too.

To put it simply, I'm much more comfortable saying 'it's in God's hands' than 'it's in the church's hands'.

[John317]

It's an interesting question: do we see any progress toward this condition of the church? Probably depends who you ask. Many would probably say we see regress. Which suggests he may never return. I'm interested in how this notion of the church ties in with the doctrine of Laodicea, too.

To put it simply, I'm much more comfortable saying 'it's in God's hands' than 'it's in the church's hands'.

It seems to me that we see exactly what the Bible and the Spirit of prophecy said we would see. We see a widening of the division within the church. I think it's the same thing that we will see in the world at large. There will be a division of the whole world into two camps. The larger camp will consist of those opposed to God and aligned under Satan's rule. The smaller camp will be those who are determined to obey God no matter what.

I believe the answer to understanding how this takes place lies in the Investigative Judgment. The vast majority of the church will be shaken out and God will eventually have a pure church-- the remnant of the remnant, as it were. The ones who are not shaken out become more and more like Christ, whereas those who are shaken out become more and more like the world. There will be millions shaken out, and their place will be taken by millions who hear the message and accept it.

The shaking comes as a result of false doctrines and persecution. For instance, if people have to suffer for their belief-system, what percentage believe it deeply enough that they would go on even under the worst suffering imaginable, including death?

False doctrine does the same thing, causing confusion because some people have their feet on sand and not on rock.

When God sees that a significant number in the church are ready to be sealed, the sealing will take place, and so will the end-time events that lead up to the Second Coming. God won't allow those things to happen until He knows the righteous are prepared for it. If He were to allow those terrible things to happen now, there would be many lost because they're not settled deeply enough into the truth so they can't be moved. That's why Jesus waits.

[Aliensanctuary]

Daniel, in Ch 7 seems to indicate that the Son of Man arrives in the clouds in the sky after the Iron-Toothed 4th Beast is destroyed. A that time he will be given his Kingdom.

[jasd]

Quote:

Quote:jasd

1 Thess 4:14 ...even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

"...bring with Him?" ?? What of those who 'sleep in Christ'?

>>The Holy Spirit inspired Saint Paul to tell the Thessalonians, who were worried about their beloved death, that they would see them at the Second Coming.<<

Exactly. He did so with the statement found in 1 Thessalonians 4:14 – a statement of such exactitude as to surprise. Strictest reading of what St Paul set forth – seems not to lend itself to the extraction of linguistic ambiguities.

>>Notice that Paul does not comfort them by telling them, "Your beloved dead are now in heaven with God."<<

He did exactly that by informing them that when Gd comes – He will bring those that sleep in Jesus – with Him. The inference is readily apparent.

>>Who will God bring with Jesus? Those who died in union with Jesus.<<

Semantics. Sleep? “in union”? Nevertheless, it remains, “them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.”

>>They will be resurrected and together...<< [ed.jasd]

That is not the textual reading. What you suggest in the immediately above quote overbears upon the exposition of 1 Thessalonians 3:14, imho.

>>...both the newly resurrected saints and the ones who had never died will be caught up in the air to meet the Lord.<< [ed.jasd]

I agree that ‘newly resurrected’, that is, “the dead in Christ” (1 Thess 4:16) will precede the remaining/living saints “to be caught up to meet the Lord in the air’ ... Moreover,

it can hardly be said that those who die in Jesus Christ today will be ‘resurrected’ and caught up to meet the Lord in earth’s atmosphere – and from there Gd will bring them – to where? back to earth? from where the birds fly? No, indeed, Gd brings those that sleep in Jesus Christ from other than a rest stop in earth’s atmosphere.

>>In this manner (says the apostle) we will be forever with the Lord.<<

Yes, but that precludes remaining “forever with the Lord” – in the clouds of heaven, or the heavenlies; rather, all of those various of the tagma return to earth together with the Lord – thereafter – shall the righteous “forever be with the Lord” (whether figuratively spoken or whether excursionary). That is, they will inhabit the millennial Earth. (that does not yet address others who, at that time, may or may not hitherto – have been ‘robed’ upon with Jesus Christ’s faith and righteousness)

>>Paul has just explained how we go to be with the Lord, and it is not by dying.<<

It seems St Paul takes issue with you in his passage to the Thessalonians; namely, the above referenced 1 Thessalonians 4:14, per the anteceding verse 13 – together with the factoring premise of verse 14 “...if we believe...” Note: text does not read – ‘those whom Gd will meet in the atmosphere of earth...’

>>It is because of the resurrection and the Second Coming. Compare 1 Cor. 15.

All the Bible agrees: the resurrection of the body is absolutely essential.<< [ed.jasd]

“the body” – ??

1 Cor 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

>>Without the resurrection there is no hope of life with God.<<

Uh, purportedly, there is – according to the dogmas and doctrines of the .Org; that is, it advances that Enoch was translated – to the heaven of Gd – despite:

YLT Jn 3:13 and no one hath gone up to the heaven, except he who out of the heaven came down -- the Son of Man who is in the heaven.

Should Enoch have been translated to the heaven of Gd – how much more so might it be posited that the saints, post-crucifixion, have access – ascended?

As per 1 Cor 15: is there a parallel with...

Jn 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

Jn 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: (herein, is reflected ‘traditional’ resurrection)

Jn 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? (herein, Jesus Christ established NT epistemology re “those who sleep in Jesus” – rendering “die” a euphemism)

in that Jesus Christ, in the above texts, revealed and emphatically emphasized a demarcation from then existing OT doctrine? Seems so...

Given, that St Paul, in speaking of ‘the resurrection’, used the OT signifier ‘Christ’ (the promised Anointed) in his letter to the Corinthians – versus Jesus (the realized Redemptor) in his letter to the Thessalonians – do you suppose that St Paul was forwarding oppositional Theologic paradigms? much as Jesus Christ did in the above texts of John 11? Seems so, else, why does St Paul restrict his dialogic in Corinthians to the use of the significant term, Christ?

Christ. Jesus. Used singly, are disparate signifiers, which in the one instance, carried the title and the sense of Messiah/Christ, ‘Anointed; and in the other instance, denoting the proper name Jesus/Yeshuah or Joshua, meaning ‘Redemptor or Salvation’.

>>That would not be the case if we go to be with God as soon as we die.<<

Ah, John317, but we do continue... in Jesus Christ.

[John317]

Daniel, in Ch 7 seems to indicate that the Son of Man arrives in the clouds in the sky after the Iron-Toothed 4th Beast is destroyed. A that time he will be given his Kingdom.

The Iron-Toothed 4th Beast is no longer on the stage of history at the time the Son of Man arrives on the clouds. He has been replaced by the little horn power. See parallel verses in the 8th chapter. Also compare Daniel 2. The book of Revelation also deals with the same events and time period.

Dan. 7: 10, 11 show that the heavenly court is in session at the same time that the little-horn power is speaking its boastful words.

Where does v. 13 say the Son of Man goes on clouds of heaven?

[John317]

Quote:

Quote:jasd

1 Thess 4:14 ...even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

"...bring with Him?" ?? What of those who 'sleep in Christ'?

>>The Holy Spirit inspired Saint Paul to tell the Thessalonians, who were worried about their beloved dead, that they would see them at the Second Coming.<<

Exactly. He did so with the statement found in 1 Thessalonians 4:14 – a statement of such exactitude as to surprise. Strictest reading of what St Paul set forth – seems not to lend itself to the extraction of linguistic ambiguities.

>>Notice that Paul does not comfort them by telling them, "Your beloved dead are now in heaven with God."<<

He did exactly that by informing them that when Gd comes – He will bring those that sleep in Jesus – with Him. The inference is readily apparent.

Notice 1 Thessalonians 4: 13. Paul says, "We don't want you to grieve for those who have died." Does Paul then say they are alive in heaven? No, he says you will see them at the time of the resurrection, when Jesus returns.

For proof of this, see v. 14 where Paul uses the word "thus" [Greek, houtos]. He says that just as God raised Jesus from the dead, thus-- in this way, in the same circumstances-- God will bring with Jesus those who have died, i.e., they will be resurrected. This is made plain in v. 16 which refers directly to the resurrection of the righteous dead.

V. 15 would make no sense if the dead preceded the living to heaven. Here Paul says that those who are alive at the time of the Lord's coming will not precede the dead. If the dead precede the living to heaven, Paul would simply have said that the dead are already in heaven and hence do indeed precede the living. But instead Paul says that both the righteous living and the resurrected will go "together" to be with the Lord.

Verse 17 says that the way we will be with the Lord is that the righteous living and the resurrected will be caught up together to meet the Lord in the air. That is how the Thessalonians and their beloved dead will meet. They don't meet when they die but at the resurrection and the return of Christ.

Some versions make this point plain--

Quote:

"Because we believe this [the resurrection of Jesus] we know that God will bring to life again all those who belong to Jesus." (New Life)

13-14 And regarding the question, friends, that has come up about what happens to those already dead and buried, we don't want you in the dark any longer. First off, you must not carry on over them like people who have nothing to look forward to, as if the grave were the last word. Since Jesus died and broke loose from the grave, God will most certainly bring back to life those who died in Jesus. (The Message.)

John 14: 3 makes it very plain that Jesus' followers do not go to be with Him when they die. If that was true, Jesus would not have told them that He is coming back for them so they can be with Him.

Your argument also has the problem that the Bible teaches the non-immortality of the soul and that humans do not know anything after they die.

[John317]

Jn 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

Jn 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

Jn 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

It is very obvious that Jesus is not denying that those who believe in Him will die. Jesus is saying that those who believe in Him as their Savior will not die the second death; that is, they will not have to pay the penalty for sin, which is endless death. In verse 25, Jesus plainly declares that He will raise up the dead The death they will never die is the penalty of sin, which Jesus died in our stead.

[LifeHiscost]

Praise music, praise dance, preaching, you name it, they can do it better.

DB

One man's opinion does not reality make. One may do all those things better and still lose their salvation. The way of salvation is not a competition. The person/s who excel in those attributes, when given by God, will be using their gifts to enable others to find the way of salvation without thought of personal reward.

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

"Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash." " Matt 7:21-27 NASB

"Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights" James 1:17 KJV

"Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven."

Matthew 5:16 KJV

Regards!

[melvin mccarty]

Did Lazarus have to die again or is he perhaps now in heaven with Moses and Elijah?....mel

[John317]

Interesting question. I've wondered that, too. I think he died again, but we really don't know. It's possible he was taken to heaven at the time of Christ's ascension, along with others whom the Bible says were raised from the dead. We do know, as you've alluded to, that there are already humans in heaven. Rev. 5 may be referring to them when it speaks of "elders."

I'm not aware of any information that either the Bible or the Spirit of Prophecy give us about him which would help us to be sure of the answer.

[Planey]

Did Lazarus have to die again ?

What about all the other people that we know were raised from the dead?

The son of the widow from Nain, Jairus' daughter, the servant of the Roman officer, and those raised by Peter abd Paul. (yes, I know that it was God who raised them back to life, but Peter and Paul were the human instruments used.)

Do we believe that each one of these was taken to heaven and did not die again?

Graeme

[melvin mccarty]

Well....and why not? Have you any good reasons for believing otherwise?....mel

[Joe_in_RP]

SOP does say they wanted to kill Lazarus also because he was a constant reminder of what Jesus did. I have not read what actuality happened to him.

[Tallmark]

What's to get ready? Either you've accepted Him as Lord and Savior, or you haven't. Kind of like being pregnant. You are, or you aren't.

[Woody]

What's to get ready? Either you've accepted Him as Lord and Savior, or you haven't. Kind of like being pregnant. You are, or you aren't.

[jasd]

Quote:

Quote:jasd

1 Thess 4:14 ...even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

"...bring with Him?" ?? What of those who 'sleep in Christ'?

>>Notice 1 Thessalonians 4: 13. Paul says, "We don't want you to grieve for those who have died." Does Paul then say they are alive in heaven? No, he says you will see them at the time of the resurrection, when Jesus returns.<<

I reprise: He did exactly that. That is, St Paul “did then say...” – by informing them that when Gd comes – He will bring those that sleep in Jesus – with Him. The inference is readily apparent.

>>For proof of this, see v. 14 where Paul uses the word "thus" [Greek, houtos ]. He says that just as God raised Jesus from the dead, thus-- in this way, in the same circumstances--<< [ed.jasd]

Why do you ‘colorize’ and ‘size’ me? I proffer that I am fair to middlingly able to read sufficiently well, without being, shall we say? – ‘fonted’. That noted,

St Paul did indeed use houtos and, yes, it may be translated “thus” – as it may, likewise, be translated – “after that, after (in) this manner, as, even (so), for all that, like(-wise), no more, on this fashion(-wise), so (in like manner), thus, what” – etc.

I think the KJV and other translations that concur – capture the sense of the passage with their use of “even so”. That said,

I prefer, houtos, as utilized in 1 Thessalonians 4:14 – particularly, translated with the sense of “under these circumstances”; moreso, than “even so” – per the KJV.

So, with houtos being an adverb functioning as qualifier – it is my opinion that in this instance it does so as an intensifying qualifier of the specific words which gives the clause its active ‘voice’; to wit, “if we believe” – rather than to the denouement of that belief – that is, “Jesus died and rose again”.

We might paraphrase:

“under these circumstances, that is, believing what I say” [...] then, believe thou this also, that those who fell asleep in Jesus, Gd will bring with Him.” (jasd 12:12 ;-)

The clause following is dependant upon the preceding ‘premise’ of believing the words of St Paul and not upon the ‘resurrection’ per se. (remember, that the Apostle St Paul, under duress, left the Thessalonians prematurely – without having sufficiently elaborated upon dogma and doctrine)

>>God will bring with Jesus those who have died, i.e., they will be resurrected. This is made plain in v. 16 which refers directly to the resurrection of the righteous dead.<<

1 Thess 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

I, again reprise: remember, that the signifier Christ is a title only – with nothing inherently salvific in a title. Realization of the signifier Christ/Anointed occurred in the proper-named Jesus, Gd in the flesh, who became, post-crucifixion, Redemptor. Big Difference – (with, perhaps, the matter of ‘first-fruits being a caveat). Those who ‘died’ in Christ did so pre-crucifixion; that is, they ‘died’ in the signifier or title promised anointed, that is, Christ.

I think we may agree that a simple signifier or title did not, nor does not redeem us – ipso facto, the explicative of Jesus Christ in:

Jn 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

Jn 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: (herein, is reflected ‘traditional’ resurrection)

Jn 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? (herein, Jesus Christ established NT epistemology re “those who sleep in Jesus” – rendering “die” a euphemism)

>>V. 15 would make no sense if the dead preceded the living to heaven. Here Paul says that those who are alive at the time of the Lord's coming will not precede the dead.<<

St Paul was very specific in saying that – “we which are alive [and] remain” – will not precede “the dead in Christ” in ‘the rapture’.

>>If the dead precede the living to heaven, Paul would simply have said that the dead are already in heaven and hence do indeed precede the living.<<

There are many ways to say the same thing... and, St Paul did, re those who ‘sleep’ in Jesus, state that fact.

There are differences inherent in the Biblical use of the generic term “dead”. It is impossible to ignore inherent aspects in text when parsing Holy Writ.

Matt 13:52 Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe [which is] instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man [that is] an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure [things] new and old.

St Matthew seems to be saying that we ought not to simply ‘reject’ out of hand that which does not necessarily align with how we perceive or what we most favor.

>>But instead Paul says that both the righteous living and the resurrected will go "together" to be with the Lord.<<

More specifically, the above statement ought to rightly read: “the pre-crucifixion (or Gd-come-in-the-flesh as Redemptor) ‘dead’ in Christ shall precede the righteous living – together, at the rapture.“

>>Some translations make this point plain--<<

...and the Traditional, Standard, Literal – the ‘Tried and True’ translations concur with the KJV and YLT.

[John317]

Quote:

Quote:jasd

1 Thess 4:14 ...even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

"...bring with Him?" ?? What of those who 'sleep in Christ'?

>>Notice 1 Thessalonians 4: 13. Paul says, "We don't want you to grieve for those who have died." Does Paul then say they are alive in heaven? No, he says you will see them at the time of the resurrection, when Jesus returns.<<

I reprise: He did exactly that. That is, St Paul “did then say...” – by informing them that when Gd comes – He will bring those that sleep in Jesus – with Him. The inference is readily apparent.

No, he did not say that they are in heaven. Saying that God will bring [to life, as in resurrection] with Jesus those who are asleep [dead] in Christ is not the same as saying they are in heaven.

If that were the case, He could not possibly have said things like 1 Cor. 15: 18, where Paul makes plain that without the resurrection, the dead have absolutely no hope of life. If they are in heaven now with God, they don't need a resurrection in order to experience the joy of God's presence.

And if they go to be with Jesus after death, Jesus would not have told us that He is coming back for us so that we can be with him. He has no need to come for us if we go to him at death.

Besides, the Bible is very clear that the dead do not know anything and that humans do not have immortal spirits or souls.

Greek > Houto

Strong's Number: 3779

hoo'-to Adverb

Definition

in this manner, thus, so

It says, "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, thus-- in this manner, i.e., resurrection-- also God will bring [back to life] with him those who die in Jesus."

"Those who die in Jesus" means those who die trusting in Jesus as their Lord and Savior.

[Lineman]

"As Joshua pleaded before the Angel, so the remnant church, with brokenness of heart and unfaltering faith, will plead for pardon and deliverance through Jesus, their Advocate. They are fully conscious of the sinfulness of their lives, they see their weakness and unworthiness; and they are ready to despair.

The tempter stands by to accuse them, as he stood by to resist Joshua. He points to their filthy garments, their defective characters. He presents their weakness and folly, their sins of ingratitude, their unlikeness to Christ, which has dishonored their Redeemer. He endeavors to affright them with the thought that their case is hopeless, that the stain of their defilement will never be washed away. He hopes so to destroy their faith that they will yield to his temptations, and turn from their allegiance to God.”

[Joe_in_RP]

Quote:

We are told that travel will become extremely difficult, but that is not the case yet.

Look at whats happening with national id. Every country is going to that. So movement can be tracked and controlled.

Quote:

In a vote that largely divided along party lines, the U.S. House of Representatives approved a Republican-backed measure that would compel states to design their driver's licenses by 2008 to comply with federal antiterrorist standards. Federal employees would reject licenses or identity cards that don't comply, which could curb Americans' access to everything from airplanes to national parks and some courthouses.

http://news.cnet.com/National-ID-cards-on-the-way/2100-1028_3-5573414.html