All the world wondered...

[olger]

There is an interesting phenomenon starting to manifest itself. People in positions of authority are "converting" to Catholicism. For instance:

Jeb Bush (former governor of Florida)

Alan Hunt (Nationally syndicated talk show host - was Methodist Pastor).

David Pendelton (Adventist pastor and State Representative of Hawaii)

Dr. Beckwith (president of the Evangelical Theological Society)

In my conversations with scholars, I am seeing a pattern emerge here. Conservative individuals are slowly moving towards those who have standards. As the churches get more liberal (permissive & postmodern) it is driving the conservative towards more fundamental groups.

It would not surprise me at all to see president George Bush convert to Catholicism after he leaves office. In fact, I look for it to happen.

oG

[Lineman]

I work for a Catholic hospital and just last night I was thinking about what Jesus was asking His people to do:

Quote:

Revelation 18:4

And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

and I realized again that there are many of God's people in that system yet. Where I work I find so many fine Christians, though I think many are not Catholic, but I also see many who are. God loves them too of course. How do we reach them?

It's sad to see so many influential people going in rather than coming out, though I am sure that there are many coming out too (Praise the Lord!). It would be good for us see how God is drawing influential people out as well. Anyone able to share something on this?

[Lineman]

Quote:

Laws enforcing the observance of Sunday as the Sabbath will bring about a national apostasy from the principles of republicanism upon which the government has been founded. The religion of the papacy will be accepted by the rulers, and the law of God will be made void.--7MR 192 (1906).

[John317]

I see this happening because protestants no longer understand why they are protestants. There's also the fact that the protestants have allowed so many false doctrines into their churches that they have no firm ground under their feet. And lastly, they believe the Catholic Church has changed for the better. They don't realize that it's the protestants that have made the changes.

[Joe_in_RP]

Don't forget Tony Blair. He resigned so he could become catholic.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2007/jun/22/uk.religion1

[ChildofChrist]

I met an interesting young man a few months back. Several years back, a small group in Umatilla FL found a historical (Chapel) church building that we were able to rent. Fast forward ... I happened to say something to this young man and we clicked.

He had been attending the Methodist church (the one we was renting) since childhood. One day he happened to present a question to his minister that was not answered to his satisfaction. The family was passing one Sabbath morning and decided to stop in and see what the Seventh day Adventists were all about. (We had a little sign out front by the street.)

He was amazed at how much different our knowledge of church history was compared to his own denomination.

It wasn’t long before they joined us in faith and baptism.

I believe it takes a thinking individual to arrive at the ‘logical’ conclusion. It is my opinion that few folks aren't still enough to hear the Lord speaking with them. And others--they take pride in their conclusions.

[John317]

That's wonderful to hear. I know these kinds of things happen far more often than we realize.

I would be interested in learning-- if you know-- what they had asked the Methodist minister, and also what sorts of knowledge of church history made them amazed.

[John317]

It doesn't look like Blair ever seriously considered any church besides Roman Catholicism. I wonder why he evidently did not even consider the Anglican church.

[olger]

Blair - yes, thanks.

[Bravus]

I'm not sure there's only the liberalism of the protestant churches as a factor, though I'm sure it's one factor. There are plenty of protestant denominations that are much stricter again than Catholicism (especially post Vatican II, but many of those reforms are being unrolled and Catholicism is moving stricter again).

I wonder whether it's more of a 'thinking versus feeling' thing? Catholicism (and I know I'm over-generalising) can tend to be more mystical in terms of the experience of the everyday parishioner, where protestantism tends to be a matter of the logical presentation of beliefs. Mind you, I have to admit that I'm feeling the pain of low fat, dry milk, typical topical sermons rather than real meat in some of the churches I attend too.

(In other words, I'm agreeing that we might be seeing such a trend, and agreeing with some of the reasons proposed but suggesting some other reasons.)

The bottom line is that people are searching spiritually, and what we're offering is not fulfilling them. In one sense we have to 'not govern by the polls' - not change the gospel to make it more palatable. In another, though, we do need to see whether we've somehow already done so, and a return to the gospel would meet the real needs of many more people.

[Doug]

David Pendelton was my HS history teacher.

[Robert]

Revelation 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

We shouldn't say, in my humble opinion, that the RCC is "Babylon"....In the end Babylon will be much larger then just the RCC. Remember that the issue will be apostasy from the everlasting gospel. This is yet to be fully realized.

Only after the restoration of the everlasting gospel will you have Babylon. That doesn't mean that I agree with the RCC for I do not! It is legalistic and it attacks the true gospel, but I'm sure that the RCC disagrees with me.

[John317]

What are your memories of him? What was he like as a teacher? Were you surprised or shocked to learn that he joined the Roman Catholic Church?

[Doug]

What are your memories of him? What was he like as a teacher? Were you surprised or shocked to learn that he joined the Roman Catholic Church?

Well as a teacher he was really good. Probably the only time I really liked learning about History and politics was when he taught us. When I was there he was studying for his bar.

I am pretty shocked that he became Catholic. When I saw the name I was hoping it wasn't the same person. Did a quick google and it is so. I am trying to think what would make him switch over.

[John317]

We shouldn't say, in my humble opinion, that the RCC is "Babylon"....In the end Babylon wbe much larger then just the RCC. Remember that the issue will be apostasy from the everlasting gospel. This is yet to be fully realized.

Seventh-day Adventists have never taught that Babylon is solely the Roman Catholic Church.

Babylon is the false religions which have fallen away from the truth, and the RCC did that a long time ago. Rev. 17 shows very plainly that the Roman Catholic Church is a major part of Babylon.

It's very important to know this because God is even now calling His people out of Babylon.

There are several "falls," and Babylon will fall still farther away from truth, but the point is that the false religious systems will not improve but will get worse. Therefore, God calls people out of those false systems and into the church that is preparing for Christ's return and proclaiming the truth as it is Jesus.

See GC 378-390, esp. 383.

[John317]

Based on things he wrote about it, he was influenced by the Catholics he met while working in politics in Hawaii. He said that he found out that there were a lot of good Catholic people. He said that was contrary to what he had been taught before. I have a hard time believing this because everyone with his knowledge should know that there are millions of good, honest, sincere Christians in the Catholic church. Ellen White herself says this in the book, Great Controversy. He also said that he was very impressed with Roman Catholic services. It would be very interesting to ask him about his reasons.

[Woody]

We know that in the end ... people will throng towards legalism. Those churches who have established rules like the Jews of old will experience growth. But God is calling us out of that. He wants us to love him and reject legalism.

[Joe_in_RP]

Quote:

He also said that he was very impressed with Roman Catholic services.

I know someone who switched because of that. Its really not a new thing. For thousands of years God has wanted a direct personal relationship with us. But some people want to stick a middle man in there.

[John317]

Yes, Ellen White wrote about the attraction of the Catholic ceremonies & services in GC 566. She says that they "silence the voice of reason and of conscience. The eye is charmed." There are some protestant services that do the same thing, using different techniques.

For many people it's a welcome thing to have a middle man, because he removes our responsibility. It's always nice to be able to surrender the burden of our freedom to choose and be able to simply rely on the authority of a leader who claims to guarantee our sins are forgiven.

[Kountzer]

There is an interesting phenomenon starting to manifest itself. People in positions of authority are "converting" to Catholicism. For instance:

Jeb Bush (former governor of Florida)

Alan Hunt (Nationally syndicated talk show host - was Methodist Pastor).

David Pendelton (Adventist pastor and State Representative of Hawaii)

Dr. Beckwith (president of the Evangelical Theological Society)

In my conversations with scholars, I am seeing a pattern emerge here. Conservative individuals are slowly moving towards those who have standards. As the churches get more liberal (permissive & postmodern) it is driving the conservative towards more fundamental groups.

It would not surprise me at all to see president George Bush convert to Catholicism after he leaves office. In fact, I look for it to happen.

oG

Those who have standards? I've known several catholics. I work with 4 or 5 now. Nice people. Still, they carouse, drink like fishes, gossip monger with the best of them, conduct bazaars and zydeco concerts, and bingo games at the church, and will eat just about any animal that moves, especially in the Gulf coast, texas/louisana area.

DB

[Bravus]

But basically all you've done there are apply Adventist standards - teetotaling, certain tastes in music and entertainment, kosher - to them. Maybe others judge by justice and mercy and kindness...

[Taylor]

We know that in the end ... people will throng towards legalism. Those churches who have established rules like the Jews of old will experience growth. But God is calling us out of that. He wants us to love him and reject legalism.

Redwood where does it say that in the end times people will throng towards legalism? What I have read seems to indicate the exact opposite. I think there will be distinct polorizations on both sides..the legalists will become more legalistic but I think the vast majority will become more and more lax till "anything goes" and "god's truth will be of non-effect".

[olger]

true Tay

[Woody]

This is what Babylon is all about ... They think that they are saved within themselves. But then that is another topic.

[John317]

The religion of Babylon says that as long as you do certain things-- such as make confession once in a while, go to mass a couple times a year, etc.-- you can pretty much do anything you want (except commit a mortal sin!). It says people will be cleansed of sin after they die so there is no need to be cleansed beforehand, in this life. Only the worst will suffer the fires of hell; most will be cleansed in Purgatory and make it eventually to heaven. The road of Babylon is very broad. No worry.

Babylon also says you shouldn't be concerned about end-time events, and it puts the Second Coming off to many, many years in the future.