Sunday Laws

[Bravus]

There have been various posts about proposals to close businesses on Sunday for economic reasons, suggesting that these are harbingers of 'The Sunday Law'. But it's a loooong step from making Sunday a day when people don't work to making Sunday a compulsory day of worship, and from there to making it illegal, punishable by death, to worship on any other day. But this last is what I have always understood by 'The Sunday Law'.

I guess what I'm saying is that it's not a linear progression, really. Causing businesses to close and people to stop working is a commercial and industrial (in the unions/workforce sense) decision. Forcing them to worship is a religious decision. It would require a government that thought it was a theocracy, and a comprehensive breaking down of the Constitutional protections against the establishment of a state religion.

Wouldn't it be signs of the latter development that would be much more reliable and urgent early indicators of the coming Sunday Law than any of the developments people are heralding now?

[there buster]

Quote:

It would require a government that thought it was a theocracy,

Not at all. All it would require is an electorate that thought is was a righteous thing to do, whatever their rationale. It could just as easily be because of "global climate change." Reduce the usage of energy by 14%. And because of the 'deadly effects of climate change,' punishments could become increasingly draconian.

We already have extraordinary punishments for a person holding and expressing the 'wrong' beliefs. WE call them 'hate crimes.' And in Canada and the U.S. Christians have already been accused under those laws.

Personally, I do not believe that is how the final Sunday law will come about. But all the pieces are in place. All it would take is a serious drought in North America. We've already seen what happens when there's even a slight decline in the corn available for food. If people were convinced such a catastrophe was the result of anthropogenic global warming, strong measures would fly through the upcoming congress. And "deniers" might well be the object of sanctions, as well.

[Bravus]

But that still stops people working on Sunday, but doesn't either (a) force them to worship on Sunday or ( stop them from worshiping on any other day.

That was kind of my point - I take your point that the rationale for stopping working on Sunday can be based on a wide range of considerations. But climate change is not going to be the rationale for coercion of how and when people worship.

[there buster]

Quote:

But climate change is not going to be the rationale for coercion of how and when people worship.

I said I did no think that was how it would happen. But climate change already makes claims about worship.

[phkrause]

I agree with all your posts. But its not a far stretch from all those things that you mentioned to see worship to be included. Things can change very quickly. With all the moral decay in the USA slowing going downhill. I can easily see the moral right or the christian right or what ever there name will be asking for some kind of family or worship day. I used to get a magazine called Liberty, not sure why I'm not receiving it anymore, but anyway I remember reading that there are many religious liberty law, bills, just waiting to be passed. So yes what your saying is true but even you know that things can move very quickly. For its more of a thing to always be ready so that when things happen I'm not caught with my pants down.

pk

[Sulla]

If you look back at history people have been surprised many times by how fast things changed. For example Jews did not believe Hitler and the German people could do such terrible things. But Hitler never really faced any real oposition from the German people.

Another thing we learn if we study about the holocaust and general studies of human behavior is about 90% of people or more will do what they are told my people in authority. I would suggest reading Ordinary Men - Reserve Police Battalion 101 and The Final Solution in Poland. You will see it was ordinary people killing the Jews. Bankers, lawyers, bakers, and other respected people. And it fits with the studies. Most people went along. Some really enjoyed it and a handful said no.

This ability to murder on even a mass scale is just below the surface of society. Its been proven in in Germany, Cambodia, Russia, China, Rwandan, Turkey and many more places just in the last 100 years or so. We some how thing we are to modern for these things to happen so easly. But so did the people in these countries.

[Stan]

Back to another conversation, are Sunday Laws in Croatia (Croatia means Catholic bty) worse than Sabbath Laws in Isreal?

[Bravus]

I agree with the points Sulla made. I still think people are jumping at the wrong sort of shadows. It is government-legislated religion that ought to be the trigger for disquiet, rather than specifically Sunday.

I said that pretty carefully - I agree that both sides of politics in the US legislate their values. But the values the Democrats legislate tend to be secular (unless religion is defined incredibly broadly) whereas the Republicans tend to legislate values based in Christianity. Now, as Christians, I can understand that we tend to prefer the latter many times. But it's a slippery slope if we recognise that the Sunday Law is legislation of religion.

[Bravus]

The other issue, of course, is how US-centric the idea of the National Sunday Law is. I know things can move fast, but an International Sunday Law that includes India and China and Europe seems even further away.

[Sulla]

I would suggest overlapping goals will come into play. Enviromentalists already favor one day without work a week. And evangelicals favor it for another reason. And for Hindus and Muslims etc it does not really matter much. They already tend to work around the US and EU week. Now on top of this you add calls for new world wide bodies to regulate finance to keep up with our global system and really all the pieces are falling into place.

Not to mention that by and large pope is now respected around the world by protestants and catholics and others to an extent not seen in hundreds of years. Most main stream historic protestant churches shrinking. Advanced talks with several churches becoming part of the Catholic church again.

Taking all this into account things seem to be getting interesting.

[Robert]

When this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations [Matthew 24:14]; it will polarize or divide the human race into only two camps — believers and unbelievers [1 John 5:19], those who are fully resting in Christ and those who have ultimately rejected Christ. All who come under the banner of Christ will in the end-time worship the Lord of the Sabbath and their Sabbath keeping will be the outward sign or seal of the righteousness they have already received by faith, just as circumcision was to Abraham “a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised” [Romans 4:11].

Those who have deliberately and ultimately turned their backs to the free gift of salvation in Christ will all worship the dragon which gave power unto the beast [Revelation 13:3-4]. These will exalt Sunday as man’s day of rest in defiance of the Sabbath, God’s rest day. The issue then in the final conflict will not be between two groups of Christians or even two rest days, but two opposing methods of salvation: the Sabbath, signifying salvation by faith alone, versus Sunday, signifying salvation by works or human effort. [JS]

Any Sunday law that is to be enforced will be in direct opposition to "the everlasting gospel" being preached at that time.

[John317]

I believe Jack Sequeira is essentially correct, but can you tell us what will cause millions of people at that time to begin keeping the Sabbath and why they are THEN willing to die rather than disobey God as regards the Sabbath?

[John317]

If it is okay to keep Sunday and not keep the Sabbath at this time, why will it be wrong AT THAT TIME to do those things?

What is it about that gospel which will cause people to keep the seventh-day Sabbath?

If the "end-time" is not now, when is "the end-time" and when will people know it?

[there buster]

Quote:

But the values the Democrats legislate tend to be secular (unless religion is defined incredibly broadly) whereas the Republicans tend to legislate values based in Christianity.

I guess you don't read either Sojourner's or Spectrum.

[Robert]

I believe Jack Sequeira is essentially correct, but can you tell us what will cause millions of people at that time to begin keeping the Sabbath and why they are THEN willing to die rather than disobey God as regards the Sabbath?

When the true gospel of righteousness by faith will be fully recovered and preached into all the world, every person will have to make the choice, either for or against Christ [Deuteronomy 30:19,20; Joshua 24:13-15; Romans 9:30-33; Philippians 3:3-9]. At that time, the Sabbath will become the seal of God, representing righteousness by faith. In contrast, Sunday will represent the Mark of the Beast, signifying man’s rejection of God’s saving grace in Christ [Revelation 14:10-11]. Therefore, when the Sunday (blue) law will be legally established, it will indicate the world’s deliberate and ultimate rejection of God’s loving offer of salvation through His Son.

This is the “abomination of desolation” Christ spoke about [Matthew 24:14-22]. Those who will then insist on Sunday rest, in willful opposition to God’s Sabbath rest, will receive the plagues, the wrath of God poured out without mixture [Revelation 14:9-11]. In contrast, those who will stubbornly keep the Seventh-day Sabbath will be manifesting a faith in God that is unshakeable. They will go through the great time of trouble and wash their robes white in the blood of the Lamb.

Because of the mixed, confused ideas of salvation, the true controversy between God’s Sabbath and man’s Sunday is today still foggy and not clearly understood. But when the two opposing methods of salvation come into clear focus, then the true importance of the Sabbath will be seen clearly. May God give us, at that time, the grace and courage to stand for truth. [JS]

[Bravus]

Have read both, though not regularly, and would tend to stick by my generalisation, while realising that it is as limited as most generalisations.

But I honestly didn't start this thread as a front for a political argument, and I'm sorry I introduced that theme.

Can we return to the question? Which I take to be about what steps we might see that have a *real* potential to lead to a Sunday Law.

I do admit that part of my motivation was to reduce the 'jumping at shadows' that takes every suggestion that it might not be economic for businesses to be open 24/7 in a depression to be a Sign Of The End.

[Robert]

The Sunday law legislation will be the result of the rejection of the full and complete gospel or "the truth as it is in Christ".

Our only hope is the righteousness of Christ! Ellen says it well:

One interest will prevail, one subject will swallow up every other,--Christ our righteousness. 1888 765

Those who reject that man is incapable of gaining heaven through his own good works will turn to the power of the state. They will seek to silence those who are presenting the gospel.

That's the way I see it.

[Pockey]

I do admit that part of my motivation was to reduce the 'jumping at shadows' that takes every suggestion that it might not be economic for businesses to be open 24/7 in a depression to be a Sign Of The End.

Why does it bother you that people are looking for and discussing possible signs of the end?

[Bravus]

It bothers me that they're discussing false signs of the end, because it is *exactly* the situation addressed in the fable of "The Boy Who Cried 'Wolf!'"

[Sulla]

Bravus I dont think its a matter of crying wolf. While we do not know when things will happen we can clearly see trends. For example the coming together of the Catholic church and protestant churches. Or laws against insulting religion in both countries and now gaining steam in the UN. A coming together of different groups that all think its a good idea for a sunday law. This should spur us to do more while we can to spread the 3 angels message.

[Pockey]

It bothers me that they're discussing false signs of the end, because it is *exactly* the situation addressed in the fable of "The Boy Who Cried 'Wolf!'"

Wow. It is not *exactly* the same. Not even close. In "The Boy Who Cried 'Wolf'", the boy cried wolf for his own entertainment. He knew there was no wolf when he cried it. In contrast, discussing possible harbingers of the end times is different. We know there's a wolf coming, and we're just trying to put our heads together to see how it may come about so we can be ready. Unless you're assuming that we're discussing it out of our own entertainment to scare people and don't really believe a wolf is coming? Also, that is a major assumption saying a sign is "false" or not, when the passage of events related to that sign have not played out.

[Bravus]

Sorry, I probably should have been more precise: I meant in terms of the effect on the audience, not the motivations of the crier. The cries in this case are definitely sincere. But if every time someone decides to close their shop on Sunday we cry that the National Sunday Law is just around the corner... well, let's just say we've been doing that for 150 years already.

[Bravus]

Incidentally, my mood throughout is quizzical and interested, not hostile, despite what seems to be some hostility coming back. I'm not making some huge case or argument, I'm asking a question. I want to understand the path from the 'signs' we're seeing now to what we understand the Sunday Law and the Mark of the Beast to mean. I guess I'm suggesting that I don't find the currently expected paths particularly convincing. I suspect others are in the same position.

Do others of you think that many, many 'signs' being publicly heralded and then not leading to anything reduces our credibility? Or can we just keep on crying 'Wolf!' forever without cost?

[Pockey]

So you think we shouldn't discuss it, since we've been discussing it for so long and the Sunday Law etc. hasn't come yet? Because that's the impression I get. You said it "bothers" you. Don't you want us to be vigilant even though we may make mistakes about how events may play out? I know it can be frustrating, if we've been waiting patiently and nothing's happened. But don't give up looking for signs...I think things can happen in the blink of an eye. It already has in the past 7 years since 9/11.

[Bravus]

'bothers' was your word - I just mirrored it

you didn't answer the credibility question

and yeah, I'm fine with being vigilant, it's the public proclamation of things that are very tenuous indeed that I'm querying