Sunday Laws

[Pockey]

'bothers' was your word - I just mirrored it

[Bravus]

Did you check the post of yours immediately before the post where I said 'It bothers me...'? You asked 'Why does it bother you...'? I mirrored your language.

And I see you still haven't answered the credibility question. Yes, I'm asking you.

[bygjymbo]

Didn't Noah preach that "the sky is falling" for 120 years? Not only did he preach it, but you could tell by his actions that he believed it. He spent a very uncomfortable week in the ark on dry land looking pretty foolish to the outside world.

Is it not the truth that the earth, as we know it, is in it's waning moments? Five, ten, twenty or 100 years, it's going to end. How long do we wait before we tell the world??

"Fear God, and give glory to Him , for the hour of His judgement has come..."

It's not OUR credibility but GOD's credibility that's being questioned. Don't you think that He can take care of Himself, while we just stick to the truth? Should OUR credibility or reputation even be part of the equasion?? Did Noah have any credibility amoung his peers? Not until it was too late.

"The end of the world" is not the main thrust of the Three Angel's Message, but it certainly is a part of it.

Back on topic...

Granted, no "conspiracy" (as we like to call it) is viable proof that the world is ending today. Maybe a little tact is required.

It won't happen all at once. It'll be a gradual slide toward "the time of sorrows". Every one of these actions chips away at the Kingdom of God.

I think that Satan will use every means that he can to capture the hearts and minds of men.

Forcing them to worship is a religious decision.

Money is the God of this age. It's not a far jump between the two.

[Tom Wetmore]

Incidentally, my mood throughout is quizzical and interested, not hostile, despite what seems to be some hostility coming back. I'm not making some huge case or argument, I'm asking a question. I want to understand the path from the 'signs' we're seeing now to what we understand the Sunday Law and the Mark of the Beast to mean. I guess I'm suggesting that I don't find the currently expected paths particularly convincing. I suspect others are in the same position.

Do others of you think that many, many 'signs' being publicly heralded and then not leading to anything reduces our credibility? Or can we just keep on crying 'Wolf!' forever without cost?

At the risk of engendering even greater reactions of hostility, even though I too am in the quizzical mood, I might suggest that the sign/seal/mark may be different than we expect, less specific or perhaps diverse in manifestation. If we are only focused on Sunday laws as the mark of the beast and the Sabbath as the seal of God and only look for which day rules, we may not be open to understanding the deeper spiritual signs that God is on the move and the deeper spiritual marks of a surge of evil toward the end of all things.

The message for the end times is found in the 58th chapter of Isaiah. In may be less about which day we worship and more about which way we worship. What is the true spirit of the Sabbath?

Tom

[Pockey]

Did you check the post of yours immediately before the post where I said 'It bothers me...'? You asked 'Why does it bother you...'? I mirrored your language.

[Bravus]

'Mirroring' your language is just a simple literary technique: you introduced the word and I just stayed with it to parallel what you wrote, even though it was stronger than my actual feelings on the topic. Let's leave this aside: rather than explain it in literary terms, let me just acknowledge that 'bothered' was a stronger word than I'd have otherwise chosen.

And I see you *still* haven't answered the simple question!

Just postulate, for the purposes of the question, that sometimes we guess wrong. Like the people who claimed that the Y2K bug was going to be the trigger for the End Times, as one example. Don't you think that's a problem? Can we keep relying on people who *aren't* completely converted believers in Adventism to just conveniently forget when we get it that wrong, and accept the next 'trigger' we come up with?

[phkrause]

I don't need to study the holocaust. I had my father to ask if I needed to know anything. Being that he was from poland and spent 2 years in labor camps and 5 years in concentration camps. Yes many of the people helped the germans gather together the jews and told on them, but not very many if any did any killing of the jews. My father said that other people would turn them in but that's about it. My point to bravus was that there are right now many blue laws on the books, which basicly deal with sunday. And there are many sunday laws being passed throughout the world as we speak. And many sunday laws just waiting to be passed. When things are just right things will move very rapidly. And when all these laws are in place its not afar cry for them to start punishing worship on all the people. I believe that there motives will be from the heart and maybe for all the right reasons. But we all know how crazy people can become. But I think the most important thing is not to panic because we know all these things are to come to pass. I wish that they would come sooner that later. I can't wait for all these to be over, all the death, suffering, etc. We have nothing to fear. So I'm not sure why we are so against this happening or so afraid?

pk

[fccool]

I certainly disagree with anyone who thinks that it will be a gradual decline into the end times. There are enough indications that it will happen suddenly and everything will seem like a flash with not enough time to react to what's going on as nations will be in state of shock.

People are the most suggestible and mentally open at the moment of shock and fear. The Red Russian revolution took place with only a couple of people dying. It was the fear in minds of people about the overwhelming power of Communists, or Nazis that gave way to such incredible conformity from millions. Multiple shock and awe things happening all at once is the goal IMO, and those who are prepared are those who know what's coming. Perhaps they don't know when, but they will know when it's here and it's time to go (underground once more), or face up what's coming if there is not means to do that.

Ironically, I think that Zombie films are a fair representation of the times of the end. The "walking dead" chasing the few that are alive and are not "infected" in order to satisfy their irrational and brain dead urges that is caused by the virus. A good social end time commentary if you ask me.

Call me alarmist, but I think that things are about to take a major turn for the United States and subsequently the world, and the government actions turning the recession into depression. I think that the next thing is the retail failing in January, and coming inflation as it is the last action of any government in history to attempt to save economy by printing money. I certainly hope that's not the case, but I think everything points to just that.

We already see the foreshadowing of riots... such as in Greece (which were chalked up to killing youth, but were because people were fed up with government looting their savings). And young people who right now get out of college with 50k debt, and can't even find jobs at local food joints will be the ones who will spearhead all of this.

Again, it's sounds like a worst case scenario right now, but 5 years ago recession was only worst case scenario too.

[phkrause]

I really can agree with your post. I really think that we have nothing to fear and be thankful that the end is around the corner. Lets get this over with, and go live with out Saviour.

pk

[Pockey]

Bravus, I see where you're coming from with the Y2K example. Let's say someone is predicting than an event (like Y2K) will occur, and that the specific event will trigger an end times scenario. So let's say that event (Y2K computer meltdown) never happens. If that person were to say over and over again, "Y200x is going to result in a computer meltdown, which will then trigger the doomsday scenario", and that never happens year after year, then yes, that person's credibility would not just be questioned, but would be thrown out completely.

But It depends on what events one is analyzing. In your opening example regarding the stores closing on Sunday, and the possible correlation of the economic reasons behind that leading to the Sunday Law, there is a difference between that and Y2K. The difference is the outcome. In Y2K, it (the computer meltdown) never happened. In this example however (the stores closing on Sunday), it is happening. So now the question is, will this be a catalyst for the Sunday Law? We know there will be a Sunday Law. But we don't know whether this event (stores closing on Sunday due to economic reasons) will lead to the Sunday Law. However it definitely seems like a possible scenario or an event in a series of events. At least a significant even enough to discuss and tell each other about. In scenarios like these, no I don't think it damages our credibility.

[Joe_in_RP]

I suspect we will be discussing this more next quarter. It should be interesting.

[fccool]

Sid, you will not be able to force the free world of today to comply with Sunday Law. You need to look at the larger picture. You can't go from

1) Godless society to 2) Society of universal worship

By means of economy going bad. IMO for it to happen, there have to be serious calamities of unseen proportions that shake up the world and then some kind of Messianic figure coming down as people seeing these calamities will believe that anything is possible now. I believe that is the plan. The time is right, because people are hoocked on technology and totally dependent on Government for survival and order.

It is nothing even close to the Great Depression days when people grew their own food, and lived in closed knit communities that helped each other through trouble.

Corporate America with help of government has successfully consolidated by destroying small business groceries by means of Soviet Style collective farms and factories... but this time with a bit of profiteering motive. We don't have local farm markets in scale that we had them even merely 20-30 years ago.

Same goes for food, clothing, medicine, production, and even church business. It's hard to fail a country that consists of a millions of small businesses that revolve around supporting communities. It's really easy to bring it down once you consolidate everything needlessly and out of proportion... until it comes down crashing unable to sustain its own weight. And the crash is loud because the entities that are crashing are so large that they have swallowed up almost everything around and all of the alternatives either died out, has been bought out or joined in. And all because the government policies were favoring that consolidation, while ignoring the small businesses and claiming that it is the way for our collective prosperity.

Frankly I am terrified to hear all of the stories about lost jobs, not because the jobs are lost and people are in despair. But because of the mentality behind it.... That the most innovative people on the planet have to have a job to make a living. It's ridiculous notion!

As Christians, we need to get back to small community living, and support each other. We hardly have that anymore. We drive 10-20-100 miles to go to our churches... or to work for that matter. It's grossly inefficient way of life, and there's a reason it falls apart once it all said and done... and all on its own.

That's why people who think that we are going to have Great Depression type of problems.... it's going to be different, I believe. Much worse, because American public is grossly unequipped and unprepared to what is coming our way. We need to talk about practical preparation along side with the spiritual. Spiritual and physical go hand in hand.

[Pockey]

Sid, you will not be able to force the free world of today to comply with Sunday Law. You need to look at the larger picture.

What makes you think I'm not seeing the bigger picture? I was giving one example in response to Bravus's question. I wasn't hanging my hat on one theory or one event TU

[fccool]

Thank you for clarifying.

[Woody]

Seems to me that the signs are there to point me to Christ and encourage me to accept Him as my Saviour. But what good is it to just talk and study the signs if we don't do what they are telling us to do. Once we do that .... we really then don't have any need for the signs ... for we would then be ready.

[jasd]

Quote:

Quote:pkrause

...we have nothing to fear

Even the Apostles feared. Aye, you will fear – for the things coming upon this earth!

:: We’ve had Sunday and other sumptuary laws on our books since the Puritans landed. That is not to say that we will not have such – implemented again; perhaps, sooner than later. I agree with fccool re the

predictable mind-numbed inertia of the general public in times of great uncertainty, which in turn, quite possibly will lead to grievous acts on their part versus – ’others’.

Quote:

Quote:Joe Knapp

I suspect we will be discussing this more next quarter.

Some, what says that the end of the next quarter will see the ‘sum of all things’ begin its cascade. Yes, it might prove

>>interesting.<<

Quote:

Quote:fccool

Same goes for food, clothing, medicine,

Re “food”: especially protein shortage. Re “clothing”: especially warm and weatherproof. Re “medicine”: sheesh! where would one begin? That said, especially, from your local Co-op, Veterinary Penicillin G with procaine and Tetracycline (both injectable and powder). Medium to large bore needles would be a plus as Veterianary antibiotics are not filtered as finely as that carried by your local druggist. Ampicillin is exactly the same from either source.

And, should you be late arriving at that little ‘cottage over hill, over dale’ (per the advice of EGW) – you’ll be hoofin’ in on mare’s shank – and needing sturdy hiking boots ($200-350 per pair) that support the ankles. Carrying any kind of load and misstepping a pebble can cause a three-weeks to three-months incapacitation. Big help to your family under those conditions, yes? Mebbe, even critical...

Quote:

Quote:fccool

As Christians, we need to get back to small community living, and support each other.

Unlikely, when the Xtian, comfortably ensconced in his or her pew, is assailed by the constant admonition that – recourse to one’s own planning – confirms one’s lack of faith.

Quote:

Quote:fccool

That's why people who think that we are going to have Great Depression type of problems.... it's going to be different, I believe. Much worse, because American public is grossly unequipped and unprepared to what is coming our way. [ed.jasd]

And, because, we’ve lost the moorings... our forefathers bequeathed us.

[delta]

Just a friendly reminder..........................

Speaking of "Sunday Law", most the Seventh-day Adventists Churches use the Dec 25th-Christmas Day-as a good illustration to penetrate the hardest hearts of unbelievers as well as a special call for the skepticisms that too much emphasize on: 1. The liberty in the freedom United States., 2. Different faith/religion must make the sunday law should not applied to them.

However, when the Dec.25th comes, almost all stores, businesses, and any services are closed, including the stores that open 24/7 such as Wal-Mart, Stater Brothers, Food 4 less...How about fast food restaurants? Well, you can see that most of Mc Donalds, Del Tacos, Burger Kings, also any Pizzas stores etcs. should be closed on Christmas day.

So technically speaking, no one could buy or sell on that day. We need to make our own observation on the Christmas Day.....and no matter you'd believe it or not, sooner rather than later this scenario (no business at all on Christmas Day) shall be applied on every Sundays. That's point # 1.

Point # 2 is that you must enforce yourself to believe that in most parts of Non-Christian countries, the Dec.25th is not a 'business-as-usual day', but legally applied as a national holiday....this holiday is not excluded to moslem countries since they also have the day off on every 25th of December. Yet don't stop at this point. We also need to ask ourself why in Non-Christian countries, even in moslem countries, no matter how extreme the people are, yet those fundamentalist moslems have the weekly holiday on Sundays, not on fridays or Saturdays.

When they believe that Christian is an unclean religion, so why those moslem people not trying to move the weekly holiday to fridays instead of sundays, then stop considering the 25th of Dec as a legal holiday? Why not? What a strange spirit and phenomena! However, the Bible makes sure that Sunday Law will be a "go international enforced law".

So if you still have skepticism that Sunday Law is impossible to be appied globally, please contact your friends or families if they're now in the Non-Christian countries especially in the moslem countries to see if the businesses and economic activities are open as usual on the Dec 25th. Don't forget then to ask why legal weekly holiday is sunday.