Adventism and Conspiracy Theories

[Sulla]

Has any one else noticed the tendency to conspiracy theories in Adventism? And do you think its hurting the work of getting out the 3 angels message?

Being a student of history and tending to do research on these things I can say the vast majority are hogwash. I will also point out most of the conspiracy theories are recycled from early times. I also think its interesting Ellen White while mentioning some things did not dwell on them.

Some examples would be...

The Amero and the North American Union. And just a short study will show that there is no support for this an its only been talked about by a few academics. And the Amero has not been made. The one used in the scare videos is a novelty item that any one can order online. Here is a nice article on it if any one is interested. http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2007/11/25/the_amero_conspiracy/

Evil Bankers controlling the world. With any real study people can see that this all has roots in racist anti-semitic history. The only thing thats changed in Adventist circles is that they are not called jews now just bankers.

Jesuits infiltrating ever thing and behind every tree. While clearly the Jesuits have an agenda and a long history they only have 18,815 members. And if they are running everthing they have not been doing a very good job it:) And the sources most used about the current plots of VERY unreliable and probably out right false. Just read about the sources.

The UN. The UN is full of curruption and burocrats its not a giant conspiracy.

And I could go on and on with theories about contrails, drinking water, food, money, taxes, tv, mind control, weather control etc etc.

And I know lots of adventists that believe a few or almost all of the theories. I just had an Amazing Facts evangalist send me an email about the North American Union. I have know Adventists that dont believe income taxes are legal. I know Adventists that distribute information on all of these things at a much greater rate than about the 3 angels message.

And I have not even got into extreme views on diet and health going far beyond and even contradicting what Ellen White said.

Any way I worry that mixing the truth with the most outlandish conspiracy theories will hurt the work. And again I find it very telling Ellen White did not dwell on these things.

So what does every one think?

[Bravus]

Link that with things like Amway, too.

[Sulla]

What about Amway?

[Bravus]

How many SDAs have got very energetically into various multi-level marketing schemes like Amway? Lots here in Australia at least - I'd be interested to hear the North American situation.

I don't mean to be disrespectful to my fellow SDAs, at all, but I guess the point is that my answer to your question about conspiracy theories is that SDAs are typically True Believers. They are the type of people who are selected, by Adventism's set of beliefs, which are quite complicated and structured, who will tend to also be vulnerable to believing wholeheartedly in other complicated, highly structured sets of beliefs.

Tie that in with the search for 'signs' of the end, stir in a dash of Jack Chick... and it does tend to explain the things you were asking for an explanation of...

[Sulla]

Well I have know an Adventist or two to do Amway but I do not know how widespread it is really. Not saying either way.

Well was not really asking about why they believes so much as does it hurt the spreading of the 3 angels message. But why is also interesting. But I dont think its something special to Adventists. Remember all of these theories were started by non-adventists and some very very long ago. Plus I think there are several reasons people believe them.....

1. They are exciting to read about.

2. Any problems can be blamed on them. A good illustration of this is the Muslim world. These theories are much more widely believe in Muslim countries. For example something like 70+ percent of Muslims in the middle east believe 9/11 was done by the Massad or CIA. And its about the same with Mulsims in the US. I have a lot of Muslims friends and I asked them all about who did 9/11 I was curios. The majority of them said cia, massad or they did not know. Any way if you look at why it seems to be this. Islam has been in decline for a very long time. This goes against the Islamic world view so they have to make excuses why. They normally have two. 1 they have gotten away from real Islam. 2. They are held back by the evil jews and others controlling the world.

3. For Adventists its normal to believe in secret dealing of the catholic church and masons etc. And many people have played on this to sell lots of books and tapes to Adventists and other protestants. For example Alberto Rivera. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alberto_Rivera . From best as I can tell he is the one that has started the theory that the Catholic church started Islam. Now this just sounds crazy if you know anything about the history of Islam but I have had several Adventists repeat this to me.

[Amelia]

I have never had an interest in conspiracy theories so I've not heard of many of those you mentioned. I don't go out of my way to delve into wild notions unless someone on the board makes a big brouhaha about one. Mostly conspiracy theories are the devils way of taking ones sight off God.

[Joe_in_RP]

We have already had this conversation.

The management here has made it clear that we don't want to cover the details of this type of thing.

If you have questions about the Jesuits I recommend you read page 234-235 of the Great Controversy. I promise you will find it interesting in light of your comments.

Quote:

And do you think its hurting the work of getting out the 3 angels message?

What is the Mission of the church? I doubt 1 in 20 can answer this correctly.

Hint: It is stated on adventist.org.

[Pockey]

Mostly conspiracy theories are the devils way of taking ones sight off God.

How does it take one's sight off God? I find them interesting, where are you guys getting them from? Is it the theories themselves that you disagree with, or is it the way they are presented?

I think it could for someone point them back to God...trying to figure out how things will play out, how the events in the world are connected or not connected, or how prophecy is being fulfilled. If the theories aren't "out there" or ridiculous, and seem plausible, why not discuss them? Isn't our goal to let our non SDA friends know what's up and what's coming? Would not we need practical examples of signs of the times?

[Joe_in_RP]

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Has any one else noticed the tendency to conspiracy theories in Adventism? And do you think its hurting the work of getting out the 3 angels message?

It is sad that most people do not understand what a conspiracy is.

There are people in the American culture who want to marginalize people by labeling them.

Let me ask you this: Is God's church big enough to hold people of different opinions?

Or do we need to start talking about marginalizing some because they are not like us. Someone may come on here and say those liberals are destroying the church. They are watering down our message.

How do I know for a fact that God did not send that person with His message? As I read my bible there have been many messengers of God who were not popular with the people. Some were even murdered by God's people.

All this does is cause division in the church. In my opinion these type of discussion do far more harm that the people who we discuss. If we want to discuss the merits of an idea that's one thing but to say that certain elements are harming the church is in itself harmful. God has called all kinds of people with all kinds of methods to reach a diverse population. Lets not undermine that.

[fccool]

The problem with all of the conspiracy theories talks that I've heard is the right out assumption that these are so outrageous and therefore these are automatically invalid.

But I agree, the claim that Papacy is in cahoots with US to establish a world wide Sunday law... that's not as outrageous as fluoride in drinking water... that chemical waste from aluminum factories that has been linked to hyperactive behavior in mice and many authorities and studies are now coming out telling that the benefits are minimal compared with harm caused.... sure that's an unsupported "conspiracy theory".

Does it even begin to compare? These are not unsubstantiated if you really begin to dissect it.

Think about what these people said:

Edward Bernays : " The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the [public] is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country.'"

Oscar Callaway :In March, 1915, the J.P. Morgan interests, the steel, shipbuilding, and powder interest, and their subsidiary organizations, got together 12 men high up in the newspaper world and employed them to select the most influential newspapers in the United States and sufficient number of them to control generally the policy of the daily press. … They found it was only necessary to purchase the control of 25 of the greatest papers. An agreement was reached; the policy of the papers was bought, to be paid for by the month; an editor was furnished for each paper to properly supervise and edit information regarding the questions of preparedness, militarism, financial policies, and other things of national and international nature considered vital to the interests of the purchasers.

Sir Winston Churchill :From the days of Spartacus, Weishophf, Karl Marx, Trotski, Belacoon, Rosa Luxenburg, and Ema Goldman, this world conspiracy has been steadily growing. This conspiracy played a definite recognizable role in the tragedy of the French revolution. It has been the mainspring of every subversive movement during the 19th Century. And now at last this band of extraordinary personalities from the underworld of the great cities of Europe and America have gripped the Russian people by the hair of their head and have become the undisputed masters of that enormous empire.

William Colby :The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media.

John F. Kennedy :The high office of the President has been used to foment a plot to destroy the American's freedom and before I leave office, I must inform the citizen of this plight.

Franklin D. Roosevelt :The real truth of the matter is, as you and I know, that a financial element in the large centers has owned the government of the U.S. since the days of Andrew Jackson. History depicts Andrew Jackson as the last truly honorable and incorruptible American president.

But you are right, the people who are above... they are fringe lunatics. I should believe you and not them. Forgive my sarcasm.

[Amelia]

The views expressed are mine alone and not associated with anyone elses views. LOL

I guess because the few theorists I've been in contact with have been fanatics. So narrowly focused and sheilded that other views or ideas are attacks to their way of thinking. They feel that everyone else is blind and need to have their eyes opened to the conspiracy. Hard to talk about God and blessings to someone like that. Again, my views alone.

[Woody]

Conspiracies don't belong out where all can see. This forum has a place to put such garbage. Maybe you can ask Admin for permission to post on the conspiracy forum. But they certainly don't belong in TownHall. Just my humble opinion.

[Kountzer]

Quote:

Has any one else noticed the tendency to conspiracy theories in Adventism? And do you think its hurting the work of getting out the 3 angels message?

It is sad that most people do not understand what a conspiracy is.

There are people in the American culture who want to marginalize people by labeling them.

Let me ask you this: Is God's church big enough to hold people of different opinions?

Or do we need to start talking about marginalizing some because they are not like us. Someone may come on here and say those liberals are destroying the church. They are watering down our message.

How do I know for a fact that God did not send that person with His message? As I read my bible there have been many messengers of God who were not popular with the people. Some were even murdered by God's people.

All this does is cause division in the church. In my opinion these type of discussion do far more harm that the people who we discuss. If we want to discuss the merits of an idea that's one thing but to say that certain elements are harming the church is in itself harmful. God has called all kinds of people with all kinds of methods to reach a diverse population. Lets not undermine that.

Well said.

DB

[jasd]

>>And just a short study will show that there is no support for this an its only been talked about by a few academics.<<

I remember that John Q Public was against the giveaway of the Panama canal by about 75% to 25%; yet, the canal was given to Panama with the subsequent fact that now China has de facto control of it.

Lousy Statecraft on our part? or intended ? ...meaning, conspiracy.

>>the 3 angels message.<<

Holy Writ explicitly tells us that it will be an angel who delivers the Third-Angel’s Message.

>>Any way I worry that mixing the truth with the most outlandish conspiracy theories will hurt the work.<<

Is it not “outlandish” to ‘peculiarize’ a part of the Body of Jesus Christ by attributing – where no attribution is intended?

One’s critique of “conspiracy theories” can, often as not, run to one extreme or the other – with the fact of it lost in a milieu of biases, prejudices and sundry assorted opinions.

>>Evil Bankers controlling the world.<<

Disabuse me should I think that they, largely, do.

Historically, banker-priests have inordinately influenced “control” of the world – as fractional banking was invented in Babylon. (per current charges that prophetic Babylon is inextricably linked to ‘religion’ ignore the fact that the religions of Ancient Babylon had their origins in Persia; whereas, ‘Banking’/lending upon interest {or usury} was uniquely Babylon by inception)

>>With any real study people can see that this all has roots in racist anti-semitic history.<<

And, being as their “roots” have been determined to lie here or there – does that, of itself negate the charge or suggestion? (Incidentally, ‘Semites’ include vast numbers of others not typically thought Semites and are diametrically opposed to the matter of lending upon interest {or usury})

:: Conspiracies have, practically speaking, existed since forever; like, mebbe, even since ‘before the beginning of time’ – in Heaven. Further, it is also a natural extension of the human experience – some being determined true, some not, some small, some large, etc... Determinations re such – require necessary input – hopefully, factual input. Moreover, I suppose one might want to

define how one proffers the term: for instance, was it simply a family matter, sound business sense, or ‘conspiracy’ that saw the Rothschilds (Red Shield) become the preeminent ‘bankers’ of Europe, Russia, the Americas, the world...?

Perhaps, you’d like to be more specific in setting forth reasons why you dismiss the particular “conspiracies” you’ve listed...

[Pockey]

The views expressed are mine alone and not associated with anyone elses views. LOL

I guess because the few theorists I've been in contact with have been fanatics. So narrowly focused and sheilded that other views or ideas are attacks to their way of thinking. They feel that everyone else is blind and need to have their eyes opened to the conspiracy. Hard to talk about God and blessings to someone like that. Again, my views alone.

Fair enough, that would drive me nuts too. :D

[Pockey]

[Pockey]

Conspiracies don't belong out where all can see. This forum has a place to put such garbage. Maybe you can ask Admin for permission to post on the conspiracy forum. But they certainly don't belong in TownHall. Just my humble opinion.

I actually think that would be pretty neat to have a conspiracy thread/forum so we don't "junk" up the townhall. I agree there's a lot of nutty theories out in the internets, but I think I could learn a lot from some people here, and we could share info/thoughts without being ridiculed.

[Sulla]

Well first let me say am not trying to label people or force people out of the church. My question is simply this. Do these wild theories hurt the message. I personally think they do. Any one with any study knows that most of these theories are just silly. So its damaging to put these false theories with the truth.

What I have also found from study is that peoples percieved best interest explains the vast majority of actions. From the white house to the vatican to the UN.

fccool interesting how you use some rather iffy quotes to back up your point.

Quote:

I remember that John Q Public was against the giveaway of the Panama canal by about 75% to 25%; yet, the canal was given to Panama with the subsequent fact that now China has de facto control of it.

Lousy Statecraft on our part? or intended ? ...meaning, conspiracy.

A well documented move with lots of support in the goverment. To give back to Pananama something they should control. Not to mention if in some case there was a war China could never hold the area.

Quote:

Holy Writ explicitly tells us that it will be an angel who delivers the Third-Angel’s Message.

I think its clear the church will have its part in spreading the message. By what writ says:)

Quote:

Is it not “outlandish” to ‘peculiarize’ a part of the Body of Jesus Christ by attributing – where no attribution is intended?

One’s critique of “conspiracy theories” can, often as not, run to one extreme or the other – with the fact of it lost in a milieu of biases, prejudices and sundry assorted opinions.

All I can go by is what I have seen. I have seen unending the wild theories turning people from the last day message by mixing them.

Quote:

Disabuse me should I think that they, largely, do.

Historically, banker-priests have inordinately influenced “control” of the world – as fractional banking was invented in Babylon. (per current charges that prophetic Babylon is inextricably linked to ‘religion’ ignore the fact that the religions of Ancient Babylon had their origins in Persia; whereas, ‘Banking’/lending upon interest {or usury} was uniquely Babylon by inception)

Your more than free to think what ever you like. But it still does not change the fact of the anti jewish history of these theories.

Quote:

And, being as their “roots” have been determined to lie here or there – does that, of itself negate the charge or suggestion? (Incidentally, ‘Semites’ include vast numbers of others not typically thought Semites and are diametrically opposed to the matter of lending upon interest {or usury})

Much more than here or there. It was part of the demonizing of the jews. Of the persecution of the jews. Things that Christ never endorsed. And even tho these lies are very old does not mean they are correct. The Romans demonized jews and christians alike. Thats one of the main reasons for the switch from Sunday to Saterday and other choices by the christian to seperate themselves from the jews.

Quote:

:: Conspiracies have, practically speaking, existed since forever; like, mebbe, even since ‘before the beginning of time’ – in Heaven. Further, it is also a natural extension of the human experience – some being determined true, some not, some small, some large, etc... Determinations re such – require necessary input – hopefully, factual input. Moreover, I suppose one might want to

define how one proffers the term: for instance, was it simply a family matter, sound business sense, or ‘conspiracy’ that saw the Rothschilds (Red Shield) become the preeminent ‘bankers’ of Europe, Russia, the Americas, the world...?

Perhaps, you’d like to be more specific in setting forth reasons why you dismiss the particular “conspiracies” you’ve listed...

No one ever said there are no conspiracies. But the vast majority I have researched have not held water. Where based on almost nothing. And to the die hard who believes these you will never change their mind. As the conspiracy can always change facts we have etc:)

[Gerr]

How many SDAs have got very energetically into various multi-level marketing schemes like Amway? Lots here in Australia at least - I'd be interested to hear the North American situation.

I don't mean to be disrespectful to my fellow SDAs, at all, but I guess the point is that my answer to your question about conspiracy theories is that SDAs are typically True Believers. They are the type of people who are selected, by Adventism's set of beliefs, which are quite complicated and structured, who will tend to also be vulnerable to believing wholeheartedly in other complicated, highly structured sets of beliefs.

Tie that in with the search for 'signs' of the end, stir in a dash of Jack Chick... and it does tend to explain the things you were asking for an explanation of...

One of my physician colleagues got into it pretty heavily. He became very successful and got pretty high in it that I believe he was able to quit is OB-Gyn practice. We had a husband/wife pastor team who was heavily into Amway. Yeah, a lot of SDAs we knew were into Amway.

[Gerr]

Now, how can I be sure you are not Jesuit trying to allay our suspicions that one of you have not infiltrated our unions or the GC?

[Kountzer]

I don't actively pursue conspiracies, and I don't ignore them either. If someone presents a plausible theory that explains certains I'll leave my mind open to the possibility that it is true. Like the theories about the illuminati and the jesuits. To me it is quite plausible.

Somethings will never be known this side of the 1st thousand years spent in eternity.

DB

[fccool]

Of course we should separate the valid conspiracies, from those that are trivial. I choose not to speak to people about these simply because most are not ready to except certain info and it seems a bit outrageous to them. So it takes time and certain leading facts and questions to point out current trends.

For example, not so long ago people did not need papers to travel from country to country. There was no income tax, the president of the US went skinny dipping in the lakes with no security. The idea of a passport was ridiculous. They did not need licenses to practice trade, neither they needed a job as a means for their survival.

The trend is consolidation, restriction, urbanization... and worst of all acceptance of these trends by public as "good". If you even consider that today government takes more than half of national income for operation... it becomes ever more so evident that the trends are not towards "American ideals" but towards something else, while people are in lala land thinking that all of this is incidental. It's as much incidental as the Red October revolution was incidental. The same goes for the US economy. We are told that people did not foresee what was happening, but it's a lie. A lie because it was exact government policies that led to these crises. It's fairly easy to prove.

The same goes for 9/11 movement, which is there only because of government secrecy and total blackballing of the investigation... and pushing outrageous claims that contradict the actual evidence. I'm not even going to go into it, there are so many "coincidences" and discrepancies, that the official story sounds more of a conspiracy theory than the actual conspiracy theories out there. And it's outrageous enough that technology experts and physicists coming forward saying that buildings don't collapse vertically at free fall speed into their own base... all because of the fire or airplane damage.

I always tell people that I simply asking questions and present information. It's up to them if they like to believe it or not.

Yet what you are in fact saying that by talking about these we actually come across with bad rep and distrust... but if it's true, then let's only talk about what people want to hear! Let's avoid difficult questions and offensive statements all together. As I've mentioned before 9/11 claims are hardly as "outrageous" compared with statement that Papacy is manipulating US to force people to worship on Sunday... as Mark of the Beast. If you think that's less outrageous than 9/11 conspiracy theories... just ask a random person on a street, and you are up for a rude awakening my friend .

There's nothing wrong with questions, especially if the questions are valid.

[Amelia]

*gp

We do have a conspiracy theory forum. Just let me know if you want in. I have added a few members already that I know are interested.

Amelia

[Woody]

[Sulla]

fccool you illustrate my point very well. With your views in 9/11 and why the US has more regulation and is not the same as it was 200 years ago.

Now lets looks at just one thing 9/11. You mix your theories with the truth of the final message and it will turn people away from the truth. They rightfuly detest these theories about 9/11.

Now will I ever change your mind. No I am sure of that. No matter what facts I ever show you it will all be part of the "coverup". But my goal is not to change your mind. Its to point out that the theories will harm the final message. And again I point you to Ellen White and here example. On say the assassination of President Lincoln. The conspiracy theory that the papacy/Jesuits killed Lincoln was well known in her time. But it was something she never wrote about. The conspiracy theories of jewish bankers running the world were well known in her time also. But she does not talk about them. No she was VERY specific about what she talked about. And I would just ask that we should follow her example.