1.2 billion

[Sulla]

1.2 billion is about the number of Muslims in the world. And Adventists have had a terrible track record of getting Muslims to accept the gospel. Just a quick look at this list number of adventist by country will give you a good idea. http://www.nationmaster.com/red/graph/re...ip&b_desc=1

Here are some eye opening examples.

Iran- Adventist first went to Iran in about 1911 today there are about 20 Adventists in Iran.

Iraq - Adventist have been in Iraq since about 1923. Today there are about 185 Adventists in Iraq. Probably less now.

And here are a few more numbers from the link.

Turkey: 56

Syria: 0

Afghanistan: 1

And if you read about it more the majority of these converts were already Christian. Needless to day giving a Muslim a steps to christ, desire of ages, great controversy or inviting them to a revolation seminar is not going to convert them.

So I submit you that more need to be done.

[Gerr]

1.2 billion is about the number of Muslims in the world. And Adventists have had a terrible track record of getting Muslims to accept the gospel. Just a quick look at this list number of adventist by country will give you a good idea. http://www.nationmaster.com/red/graph/re...ip&b_desc=1

Here are some eye opening examples.

Iran- Adventist first went to Iran in about 1911 today there are about 20 Adventists in Iran.

Iraq - Adventist have been in Iraq since about 1923. Today there are about 185 Adventists in Iraq. Probably less now.

And here are a few more numbers from the link.

Turkey: 56

Syria: 0

Afghanistan: 1

And if you read about it more the majority of these converts were already Christian. Needless to day giving a Muslim a steps to christ, desire of ages, great controversy or inviting them to a revolation seminar is not going to convert them.

So I submit you that more need to be done.

I don't believe that the raw numbers you cited tell the whole story. How many of those who have become SDAs found it necessary to leave those countries for fear of their lives? When a Muslim renounces Islam and becomes a Christian, his life is in danger, even from his own flesh and blood. If you go there as a missionary for the sole purpose of converting Muslims to be Christians, some zealot will probably kill you in no time. Do you have any suggestions as to what could be done that has not been done or not already doing?

IMO, finishing the "work" in Islamic countries will require nothing short of a miracle, a direct divine intervention. Before the end of time, I believe the Islamic curtain will also crumble just as the iron curtain did.

[Taylor]

I just finished reading a booklet put out by AWR (Adventist World Radio) with real stories of conversions inside closed countries. It is very encouraging. We need to support AWR for the wonderful work they do in going where no missionary can go. God's hands are not tied, we just need to work with his methods.

[Neil D]

And if you read about it more the majority of these converts were already Christian. Needless to day giving a Muslim a steps to christ, desire of ages, great controversy or inviting them to a revolation seminar is not going to convert them.

So I submit you that more need to be done.

Is this all that is needed in any North American/European country to convert to Adventistism?

Oooh, if only this were true.....

I still say, if you convert to anything, it had better make you a better/kinder person....Otherwise, not only will you be miserable, but others around you will be as miserable as well.

[Nan]

And if you read about it more the majority of these converts were already Christian. Needless to day giving a Muslim a steps to christ, desire of ages, great controversy or inviting them to a revolation seminar is not going to convert them.

So I submit you that more need to be done.

Things are happening in some Muslim countries - not that I disagree that more needs to happen.

Many Muslims will appreciate Patriarchs and Prophets, as it tells the Old Testament story, which they honour.

[Sulla]

Quote:

I don't believe that the raw numbers you cited tell the whole story. How many of those who have become SDAs found it necessary to leave those countries for fear of their lives? When a Muslim renounces Islam and becomes a Christian, his life is in danger, even from his own flesh and blood. If you go there as a missionary for the sole purpose of converting Muslims to be Christians, some zealot will probably kill you in no time. Do you have any suggestions as to what could be done that has not been done or not already doing?

IMO, finishing the "work" in Islamic countries will require nothing short of a miracle, a direct divine intervention. Before the end of time, I believe the Islamic curtain will also crumble just as the iron curtain did.

While they might not tell the entire story the are still give most of it. We dont even do well converting Muslims living in the US and EU. The problem is that we need outreach geared to Muslims.

[Sulla]

Quote:

I just finished reading a booklet put out by AWR (Adventist World Radio) with real stories of conversions inside closed countries. It is very encouraging. We need to support AWR for the wonderful work they do in going where no missionary can go. God's hands are not tied, we just need to work with his methods.

AWR is a very good project. But as mentioned in the other post we dont even do well converting Muslims in the US or EU. And some cities in the EU are already 40% Muslim.

[Sulla]

Well we have some tricky problems to overcome to be effective in reaching Muslims. Here are some of the problems.

1. Muslims learn their entire life the Bible is full of errors and the Quran is perfect. There for you cant prove to them anything from the Bible. And since you do not have this common ground you will tend to go around in circles.

2. Muslims learn from the very start that Jesus is not the son of God. That its evil to even say so. And that the apostles all lied about Jesus and what he said. Thus the Christian church is based on lies.

3. Muslims believe that the trinity is polytheism and do not believe in a holy ghost.

4. Muslims believe the west is corrupt and decodent and immoral. And they are correct in at least this.

Just the above means you likely will not do well handing Muslim any one of our books.

[melvin mccarty]

I suppose we all agree that Jesus died for the Hindus and the Moslems and everyone else. Then what really matters is the "Inasmuch as ye have DONE it unto one of the least of these"

As Red says "Love won another". No one is going to be saved by knowing doctrine. .....mel

[Sulla]

Quote:

I suppose we all agree that Jesus died for the Hindus and the Moslems and everyone else. Then what really matters is the "Inasmuch as ye have DONE it unto one of the least of these"

As Red says "Love won another". No one is going to be saved by knowing doctrine. .....mel

Lets think about this in the context of the first christians.

I guess they had no need off teaching their doctrine to the Romans, Jews, Greeks, Hindus and others of there time. guess they got it wrong by giving their lives for a chance to tell specific doctrines to these people.

[John317]

I suppose we all agree that Jesus died for the Hindus and the Moslems and everyone else. Then what really matters is the "Inasmuch as ye have DONE it unto one of the least of these"

As Red says "Love won another". No one is going to be saved by knowing doctrine. .....mel

2 Timothy 3:14-17-- But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

2 John 1:6-- This is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the commandment, that as you have heard from the beginning, you should walk in it.

[fccool]

Hmm, I would not worry about Muslims, or Hindus, or etc... in our case. Our immediate mission field is the immediate surroundings. The church population has grown from 950 thousand to a bit over a million over last 4 years in US (according to official stats at least). That's about 13 thousand a year in a country where we spend enormous amount of time and money for evangelism efforts. That totals to about 3 new members per year per church on average. Judging by our local church... that's about right, with ours gaining 6 new members. All of that in spite of the numerous conference driven efforts to bring in new members and spending nearly 30k-40k on various Prophecy seminars.

What I found about our evangelism efforts is that they almost always revolve around prophecy seminars, which I think should be categorized more of an ongoing education rather than "evangelism"... mainly because that the people who are coming are already churched somewhere else, and it so happens that instead of ministering to those who are unchurched we end up pulling the members from other churches to join ours. While it's important for others to come in terms with the Sabbath truth... it is more important imo for people to come int terms with basics of Christianity, which somehow are assumed as "prerequisite" for attending these meetings.

We need to really understand what knowledge and background of the people that our outreach efforts are speaking to. And I think we fail at it miserably with our one track "prophecy meetings" evangelism mentality. People won't understand prophecy unless they get concept of sin and Christ... and for some it takes more than one night of lecture dealing with the fall of mankind.

[Sulla]

fccool my suggestion is we need to do more everyplace. And the Muslim world is one of the most important and least worked. On the other hand hindus will coming into the church in large numbers.

[Kountzer]

A lot of effort is being put into evangelizing muslims, but it is difficult. You can't just stroll into the heart of Islamabad and set up a tent and start preaching Christ. There will be major repercussions,and consequences. As is being done, you have to start with health education, and medical missionaries. At least that is what I see on evangelism shows on 3ABN.

DB

[Sulla]

As I mentioned are best places to work are in the US and EU. We can reach millions of muslims in these free countries. And we have almost no literture for them.

[Neil D]

As I mentioned are best places to work are in the US and EU. We can reach millions of muslims in these free countries. And we have almost no literture for them.

oh ye of little faith..... "I tell you, open your eyes and look at the fields! They are ripe for harvest." John 4:35

I will tell you again...your pessimissm is showing....allow the positive thoughts in and you will hear the Holy Spirit...Do not allow the flesh to overwhelm you....

[Sulla]

Not sure what you are talking about. I am just bringing up something we are lacking in as a church. And this is something I have been active in. Sending books and cds to Christians in Iran and other muslim countries when asked. Chasing down all the Adventist works in persian and arabic etc I can find. Studing Islam to understand better whats needed. Reading Muslim books on how to convert christians to see where they are coming from etc etc.

[fccool]

fccool my suggestion is we need to do more everyplace. And the Muslim world is one of the most important and least worked. On the other hand hindus will coming into the church in large numbers.

The Muslim world makes no difference if you can't even reach your relatives at home... how are you going to reach strangers of different faith, who are much more serious about their belief system than most Christians are?

[Sulla]

Quote:

The Muslim world makes no difference if you can't even reach your relatives at home... how are you going to reach strangers of different faith, who are much more serious about their belief system than most Christians are?

So because to many Adventists are not really very serious we should not try? From what I have seen and I think read in the spirit of prophecy the mission works helps both person doing it and the person receiving the information.

dgrimm60 Yes helping people is a big part of it. But we also have to be informed about what they believe and have the correct materials for them.

[Sulla]

After thinking about this some more I have an idea. What if someone maybe me did a small book or pamplet for Adventist about the need and methods of reachings Muslims. For example it would have...

1. Information about why its needed.

2. Information about the special problems of reaching muslims.

3. Information about what they believe about there own religion and also about Christianity.

4. Information about Muslim ways of converting Christians and causing you to question the Bible etc. And answers to this.

5. Practical guide to personal outreach to muslims. For example as Adventists talking about how you dont eat pork and unclean foods, dont watch porn, drink alcohol etc is a good way to get started.

6. Ideas for a next step in introducing the gospel to them.

----

Also it seems some kind of companion piece of literature would be help. Something you could give to your Muslim friend. Maybe something explaining your religion to Muslims. So that its not outright about evangalism. But by its nature build confidence in our view of religion.

[bygjymbo]

Sulla, have you ever read "Studying Together" by Mark Finley. It's a pocket size handbook to explain our faith, with references.

Along with our beliefs and scriptural references, he gives an abbreviated version of what you suggest. Not only for Muslims, but many other mainstream religions too.

He lists the "Five primary religious duties" of Muslims, eight doctrinal beliefs that we have in common and some doctrinal disagreements, along with the pertinant scriptures.

There's also a section called "Possible approaches to Muslim friends."

Obviously, it isn't "all inclusive". I would love to understand more...

[Sulla]

Yep bygjymbo I have that one:)

[fccool]

Most of the people on this planet are religious by location... and not by conviction. They hardly question why, and if they do they don't evaluate the answers given to the extend they should. That goes for both Christians and Muslims alike.

I grew up in a Muslim country, and that's why I say that Muslims take their religion much more seriously than Christians do. They keep the 5 pillars of Islam like their lives depend on it. They don't tolerate mockery of the sacred, they value family above all, and that's why they find many things Western to be repulsive. One of the worst thing you can do to a Muslim is to insult a family member, or to assault their religious view.

Here are a couple reasons why you will not be successful with the above steps, although some ideas may be good, they don't take into account the ideas behind the Muslim faith.

1) The basic premise of Islam is that God is one. He does not have sons and He can't have sons that are equal. He is a creator and to make one equal with God is blasphemy. In that respect Islam is similar to Judaism. They reject any possibility for Jesus to be on par with God. That's why they take Christianity for a cult that corrupted the original truths of God. The reason that Christians are unsuccessful reaching out to Muslims is because they don't understand the above. When they quote Bible verses and they talk about Jesus being a god... both of these ideas are antithetical with Muslim faith. And they understand NT Bible to be corrupted (just like Mormons do). That's why God recited to an "uneducated" prophet to correct the corruption.

2) Islam in its core does not rely on emotional response that Christianity did over past several centuries. The "God loves you so much that He sacrificed His only Son" will not bring about the emotional response in Muslim. Their line of reasoning is following. God is the ultimate owner, who is invincible, indivisible, and truly independent. Thinking about that...

- How can God become a man and separate Himself from being omniscient and omnipotent?

- Can God die? If God could not die and Jesus died was it a real death in a sense of cease of function... or was it more of disruption of the shell that God used to teach humanity a lesson.

- How can a burden of sin be transferred from one person to another? And the follow up is... if it was Jews and Romans who killed Jesus, was it God who plotted this sacrifice? Does death of one perfect man justify wrongdoings of millions? If that man was God, why couldn't he just forgive in first place in return for belief? Why did he have to die?

- Follow up to the above.... if God is truly independent and all powerful, He can't die and He is in control of everything. Can He sacrifice something? What does He give up? Can he give up a part of Himself? If He re-gains it... is it really a sacrifice?

I graduated from college with a Bible minor degree, and went through evangelism classes and studied world religions as these relate to Christianity. My first experience with evangelizing a Muslim was not a pleasant one. One thing I found out that I did not really seek understanding, but I wanted to be correct and I wanted other people to see that. When presented with the above questions, I could not answer these in a way that would logically make sense to a Muslim. For a Muslim... logic of God's actions is paramount proof. If it does not make sense... it is not worth listening to or believing.

It's hard explaining "God had to die, so you can live" to a person who asks the above question. It's two different languages. I can see the same problem while evangelizing in US. We are speaking a version of "religionese" that does not make sense to a lay person. We romanticize religion, and it should not be romanticized. God does not ask for a romantic relationship, but we present it to people as such so they respond on that emotional level, while it lacks sense and understanding.

[Sulla]

fccool you are correct on all of your points. I think most people do not understand how very hard it is to reach someone that has grown up a Muslim.

But you also make my point. MOST Adventist do not know anything about Islam so are not prepared to be able to even attempt to reach muslims.

[phkrause]

Its not just Muslims, Jews are also hard to reach. They are ways to reach all with God's help. I'm not a expert at these things. But I think that if you really have a burden for any group you need to find some one that has done this kind of thing. My wife has a cousin that is married to John McGhee, who lived with us for 3 years. They used to give seminars for working with muslims. If I remember correctly its not so much shoving our religion down there throuts. He was saying that you need to just compare our religions to show how much we have in common. Obviously its not that simple. There is more involved. But to me its about sharing with others, be they Muslim or Jewish. Its about sharing the love that Jesus was talking about. I think its almost easier to talk with Muslims than Jews about Jesus. But there are a few Jewish SDA pastors. There is Steve Wohlberg, Doug Batchelor to name just two. There are others also. There was a Pastor Alex Schulester, not sure that that is the correct spelling, from Florida, who came up last year to our camp meeting in 2007, and showed ways of working with Jewish people. He has a church in Hollywood, Florida. Just my 2 cents worth. I know its not easy, but I do believe that we can share with others as long as we do it in a loving way. And its never wrong to learn about there religions either.

pk