Poll about Your Local Church's Services

[Liz]

I am just curious about what everyone's local church does, or doesn't do. You may vote how you wish, this is just to satisfy my curiosity. <grin>

[Lineman]

A few weeks back I visited a large Sunday keeping church and was surprised that they had an actual coffee shop inside their foyer. I guess if the "day" you are there is not that important then what you do there isn't either.

I have to say though that they had a lot of "ministeries" going on as well. They had mission and ministry booths all around the outside edge of the foyer too.

I was reading today in an Adventist paper about Pitcaren Island and the article said that many Adventists have left the island to become missionaries elsewhere. Seems to me that if a church is so large that it can have all of these projects going on then people must not be willing to leave such a nice setting in order to tell others about Jesus and His love.

(Maybe I'm just old and don't understand. )

[LynnDel]

Part of the responsibility of a church family is to feed the flock, though, isn't it?

[fccool]

I personally don't see coffee to be such a gravely dangerous substance when partaken in moderation. It's actually quite beneficial. There's lots of myths that surround it, and I find them to be just that... myths.

I find many people care so much about minor issue such as this, while not noticing swallowed camels in process... such as obesity, poor diet, lack of good sleep. The former will do much more damage to your health than caffeine could. So, if people would be more comfortable with a pot of tea (coffee) and cookies in church foyer, why not? What would be a problem with it?

We have an idea of church being this:

That actually originated from Catholic idea that suffering is an inescapable result of Christian faith. Thus your entire church service should be "enduring suffering" for the sake of the Lord. Thus we listen to the "dull music" or a "dull sermon" in wooden pews to get our fair share of suffering.

That's why many times I miss college churches and relaxed atmosphere. To tell you the truth, there were not a time in college when I was not excited about going to church... to learn something new, to talk to people who experience the same problems that I was... and to get a free breakfast , which was a good deal for a college student.

I don't know if you feel the same at times, but I do feel at times that my current church is monotonous and going through the same motions of read from the quarterly for an hour with some discussions, songs(which are usually recycled same old songs), prayer garden, children story, special music, sermon, blessing, talking to friends for a moment or two and then going home.

It becomes pretty dull after a while. Church does not have to be dull, but we do tend to make it strict because we view holly to be somehow associated with unpleasant, bland and something that we have to sit through for the sake of discipline.

Why not make it fun and exciting? Why not relax a bit... just like college kids do. Is their church a less of a church?

[Marie]

Church being dull is only dull for one who does not care about study for himself. Most of our Churches are not dull to those who are really looking for God's Word, and not to be entertained and fed physically. Spiritual food is far more important. Also, in reaching out to others we cannot go against what we are told is harmful for us. We are to be examples to others. How could we ever teach the health message when we bring them in with a cup of coffee? Church is not a place of entertainment, it is a place where we worship God and meet with Him. It is a Spiritual place to be reverenced if we truly believe God is there with us. It is a serious thing to be ready for the Lord when He comes for us. Serious enough that we want to live for Him and keep our bodies healthy too. Should we be any less serious on the Sabbath?

Does serious mean dull? A thousand times No. At least not for those who are looking to be fed by His Word. For those, all this new entertainment things are not needed. People looking for more than what they have come to learn Truth, not drink coffee, of all things.

This is how I view this issue.

[GreatLakesGramma]

I personally don't see coffee to be such a gravely dangerous substance when partaken in moderation. It's actually quite beneficial. There's lots of myths that surround it, and I find them to be just that... myths.

But selling coffee on what they believe to be the Sabbath? That's the impression I got when Lineman said "coffee shop". But I grew up in a Sunday-keeping church. We'd stop at the store on the way home now and then. Not all of them consider the day holy in the same way as we know the true Sabbath to be.

---

Our church has a monthly all-church fellowship dinner, but each week one of the Sabbath School classes is responsible for putting on a luncheon for visitors. But ours is a small church, so we do not have counseling and other such services, as mentioned in the poll.

There is a Wednesday night "Family Fun Night", with volleyball, an aerobics class, and a variety of classes taught for varying periods by church members, and Kids' Time for the children. Most of them are hobby type classes, like photography, but now and then they put in something about understanding prophecy or some other aspect of the Bible. There are members of the community who regularly attend these.

Several times a year, there are also various seminars put on for a month or two at a time, such as stop smoking, depression recovery, vegetarian cooking, etc. So our church is quite active at providing this type of service to the community, but there are no full-time ongoing services.

[Beryl]

Quote:

I personally don't see coffee to be such a gravely dangerous substance when partaken in moderation. It's actually quite beneficial. There's lots of myths that surround it, and I find them to be just that... myths.

I am afraid that I am going to have to heartily disagree with you on that. To begin with, one of the reasons is that, back when God gave Ellen White the visions on health, tea and coffee were among the things pointed out to her as not being healthful.

This group of substances are all "bad bedfellows", all addictive, all causing B/P and heart rates to rise (more with some people than with others)

Nicotine, caffeine, ephredeine, morphine, amphetamine, pseudo-ephredeine. There are others but that list is enough for now. The "ine" ending links them together.

Current research has shown a link between caffeine use and obesity. Studies on students sitting exams have shown a clearer mind and lower heart rate for the non-coffee users and those having coffee.

That is all I will mention on this thread, but I have screeds of scientific information if you want any more.

God bless,

Beryl

[Marie]

Our Church also is very active. Just not in the things mentioned in the poll. Our women get together and do several things for others.

We also have a womens prayer group each week.

Of course we have prayer meeting too.

But all in all I find it very active and supporting a Bible Worker. We are a small Church, but with big ideas. I only came here a year ago, but am surprised to see a church this active being this small.

Another thing we are being encouraged to do now is to pray for one another. We start with the person below our name on the address list. Each day we pray for a new person or family. We are also encouraged to leave a note for each person we will be praying for in the following week and let them know that we will be praying for them.

A family that prays together stays together.

A Church that prays for one another comes together. :)

[Lineman]

Originally Posted By: fccool

I personally don't see coffee to be such a gravely dangerous substance when partaken in moderation. It's actually quite beneficial. There's lots of myths that surround it, and I find them to be just that... myths.

But selling coffee on what they believe to be the Sabbath? That's the impression I got when Lineman said "coffee shop". But I grew up in a Sunday-keeping church. We'd stop at the store on the way home now and then. Not all of them consider the day holy in the same way as we know the true Sabbath to be.

---

Our church has a monthly all-church fellowship dinner, but each week one of the Sabbath School classes is responsible for putting on a luncheon for visitors. But ours is a small church, so we do not have counseling and other such services, as mentioned in the poll.

There is a Wednesday night "Family Fun Night", with volleyball, an aerobics class, and a variety of classes taught for varying periods by church members, and Kids' Time for the children. Most of them are hobby type classes, like photography, but now and then they put in something about understanding prophecy or some other aspect of the Bible. There are members of the community who regularly attend these.

Several times a year, there are also various seminars put on for a month or two at a time, such as stop smoking, depression recovery, vegetarian cooking, etc. So our church is quite active at providing this type of service to the community, but there are no full-time ongoing services.

GLG, you are right. This was a Coffee for Sale coffee shop, with all the trimmings. In another corner they had FREE coffee and donuts. Go figure!

I am impressed by how much your "little" church is doing. How little is your church (how many members attend) and how close do they all live to the church? We have about a hundred who come each week and yet we have very little going on.

Tell us more about how you guys got started and what all you do.

[phkrause]

Not to disagree or agree with you and fccool, but I also read somewhere that caffeine increases the bad colesterol, by double.

pk

[fccool]

Quote:

Nicotine, caffeine, ephredeine, morphine, amphetamine, pseudo-ephredeine. There are others but that list is enough for now. The "ine" ending links them together.

Current research has shown a link between caffeine use and obesity. Studies on students sitting exams have shown a clearer mind and lower heart rate for the non-coffee users and those having coffee.

Beryl

Beryl. There are plenty of things that I would disagree with Ellen on. One of these things would be some of the health items that she has mentioned. Not as much as these are "unhealthy", but that consuming them is somehow sinful.

Eating red meat is much more dangerous than drinking coffee, yet God COMMANDED people to eat meat... and Jesus himself did partake in such "unhealthy" practice. I think it's fair to say that God approved of such practices simply from reasoning that Jesus did eat meat.

As far as E.G. White's ADVICE concerned, I think you should take it with a grain of salt. I find most of it beneficial, yet there are many cultural prejudices and opinions do creep in.

Some examples would be:

Quote:

The human family was presented before me, enfeebled. Every generation has been growing weaker, and disease of every form visits the human race.... Satan's power upon the human family increases. IF THE LORD SHOULD NOT SOON COME AND DESTROY HIS POWER, THE EARTH WOULD SOON BE DEPOPULATED.

Reading the above emphasis in context and I don't think she foreseen the exponential population growth that we have today due to advent of the modern medicine. Same goes on many issues:

Quote:

But my waist is naturally slender, says one woman. She means that she has inherited small lungs. Her ancestors, more or less of them, compressed their lungs in the same way that we do, and it has become in her case a congenital deformity.

The above quote states that because of the tight dress you compress your lungs and thus that "unnatural" slenderness is passed on to your children. I think it's safe to say that it's a cultural myth of that day.

Nevertheless, the above Biblically is not as important as the spiritual health of people. I can assure you Beryl, that according to E.G.White's view of sin ...

Quote:

It is as truly a sin to violate the laws of our being as it is to break the ten commandments. To do either is to break God's laws. Those who transgress the law of God in their physical organism, will be inclined to violate the laws of God spoken from Sinai.

Taken the above view too far, sleeping too late is a sin.

Now, it is fairly obvious Biblically, that self-control is the last described fruit of the Spirit. Yet, it is a FRUIT OF THE SPIRIT . If God does act and reside in your life, the natural result is self-control, not the other way around. Fruit means result, to which Spirit is the cause.

But what I find our churches doing is quite the opposite. Helping people to attain the cause from the result, which obviously does not makes sense to them ... and neither does it much good during God's judgment.

I certainly have problem seeing God condemning me for a cup of coffee or tea that I drink daily. There are more important issues that need to be addressed and discussed. Yet people make a huge deal when others drink coffee, when in fact they fail to notice that there are practices that they partake in daily that have far reaching implications than these.

[Woody]

Hey Liz. This is a great thread. I am looking forward to more comments on this topic.

[bygjymbo]

My Mom used to wake us up for school with a cup of tea. After all, it was harmless.

When I was pretty young, my two older brothers were involved in Boy Scouts. When I was old enough, I joined too. Every so often, they had their "events" in the school auditorium.

Be it awards ceremonies or pancake breakfasts, they always had a big urn of coffee for "the parents". I liked to sneak a cup or six.

When I got a little older, we all attended a "day camp".

They also had their events and their endless supply of coffee. These special events were my big chance to get "wired".

....................................

Flash ahead about 10 years. Methamphetamine was really big in my high school.

It was an easy transition for me. I was already conditioned. Let me tell you...I was REALLY good at it...for about 21 years.

One is a psycho-active compound that stimulates the nervous system. the other is a psycho-active compound that stimulates the nervous system. Caffeine is just a little milder.

If you want to dance with the Devil, be prepared to pay the price. Personally, I'll stay as far away as I can.

[Woody]

Oh well ... I tried. Coffee is just SO much more interesting.

[fccool]

My great grandmother... who lived to be 102 (She was a Muslim women living in Turkmenistan) she drank tea every passing day of her life... as it is customary to the culture. Just to give you a small example. But she would live the natural life of growing her own food, even when packaged products became available. And she did so until the day she passed. Just one example of the consequences of "Dancing with the Devil"

If you want to dance with the Devil, be prepared to pay the price. Personally, I'll stay as far away as I can.

I would not compare a cup of coffee/tea to a pill of amphetamine. Refined sugars for example can be just as damaging and "addictive" as any of the above described stimulants. The same goes for salt.

Moderation is the key. If you lack self-control, then anything will be harmful to the body in excess.

My point is that these issues are of lesser relevance when it comes to spiritual health. It's not in direct violation of God's law to drink coffee or tea. You simply can not make that argument strictly from the Bible, otherwise you are on a slippery slope to making the consumption of the following as "Dancing with the Devil", (the mere implication that you are of a company of a Devil when you drink coffee ,I guess, just reinforces my point)

1) Prepackaged foods that contain preservative chemicals and unnatural substitutes.

2) Fluoride in our water supply

3) Pesticides in fruits and vegetables

4) Meats, and especially fish... (I think I've made a point that Jesus did partake of meats)

5) Harmful mercury based preservatives in vaccines

6) Ultra magnetic technology, such as cellphones

7) Lack of exercise, sleep, and rest.

8) Abuse of body during sports and work related activities... (i.e. contact sports such as Football, or Basketball, or sports that put undue pressure that your body was not meant to sustain in large amonts... tennis).

I hope you can see the slippery slope problem with all of that. We should strive for moderation and self-control in principle, not outright prohibition and condemnation of certain substances as "evil" or "Dancing with the Devil"

[Woody]

Hey. This is interesting stuff. Maybe you could devote an entire thread to the topic.

[phkrause]

Not that I'm disagreeing with you but where does God say or command us to eat meat?

pk

[fccool]

I did not say He commanded us. He commanded Israelites... yet he likewise commanded the health laws for them, which we choose to follow and not the command Passover (I'm not making a point that we should). Likewise, Jesus was born a Jew who would partake in Passover yearly and ate the lamb as commanded by God.

1Now the LORD spoke to Moses and Aaron in the land of Egypt, saying, 2"This month shall be your beginning of months; it shall be the first month of the year to you. 3Speak to all the congregation of Israel, saying: 'On the tenth day of this month every man shall take for himself a lamb, according to the house of his father, a lamb for a household. 4And if the household is too small for the lamb, let him and his neighbor next to his house take it according to the number of the persons; according to each man's need you shall make your count for the lamb. 5Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year. You may take it from the sheep or from the goats.

6Now you shall keep it until the fourteenth day of the same month. Then the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it at twilight. 7And they shall take some of the blood and put it on the two doorposts and on the lintel of the houses where they eat it. 8Then they shall eat the flesh on that night; roasted in fire, with unleavened bread and with bitter herbs they shall eat it. 9Do not eat it raw, nor boiled at all with water, but roasted in fire -- its head with its legs and its entrails. 10You shall let none of it remain until morning, and what remains of it until morning you shall burn with fire. 11And thus you shall eat it: with a belt on your waist, your sandals on your feet, and your staff in your hand. So you shall eat it in haste. It is the LORD's Passover.

.....

"So this day shall be to you a memorial; and you shall keep it as a feast to the LORD throughout your generations. You shall keep it as a feast by an everlasting ordinance"

I don't see a possibility of a Jew to be a vegetarian during that time of world's history, and based on the above command.

(A little side note, I am myself a vegetarian and had vegetarian tendencies before I joined the church ... from my ultra health freak parents who are neither believers or vegetarians)

[phkrause]

Again I don't disagree. But I think that the only reason for the meat is because after the flood God allowed meat eating. And he than separated the unclean from the clean. I've also heard or read somewhere that are body's don't digest meat correctly.

pk

[fccool]

Consider the following text:

Quote:

20When the LORD thy God shall enlarge thy border, as he hath promised thee, and thou shalt say, I will eat flesh, because thy soul longeth to eat flesh; thou mayest eat flesh, whatsoever thy soul lusteth after.

21If the place which the LORD thy God hath chosen to put his name there be too far from thee, then thou shalt kill of thy herd and of thy flock, which the LORD hath given thee, as I have commanded thee, and thou shalt eat in thy gates whatsoever thy soul lusteth after.

22Even as the roebuck and the hart is eaten, so thou shalt eat them: the unclean and the clean shall eat of them alike.

23Only be sure that thou eat not the blood: for the blood is the life; and thou mayest not eat the life with the flesh.

24Thou shalt not eat it; thou shalt pour it upon the earth as water.

It is interesting that in this text that God refers to people as clean and unclean eating together and not clean or unclean animals. In which I'll develop my point further.

My Dad is perhaps may be the healthiest person I know. He lives in a country where people eat frozen pig lard on bread, and He knows that it's unhealthy. He hardly eats any meat at all. He does not eat packaged food. He juices vegetables and fruit every day, twice a day. He exercises daily. He does not smoke, he does not drink ... YET.

He does not believe Bible to be true, neither he believes Jesus was God.

From the above. Who benefits more? A healthy person without belief, or unhealthy person without? Can a person with unhealthy habits be a true believer of God?

The second observation is... my dad has healthier habits than most adventists I know. He did not derive it from following Biblical way, but from self observation. We don't have to be saved to have a healthy lifestyles... because this is not what Gospel is about.

Gospel is not about message of health, unclean or clean meats, church rituals...(communion and foot washing). Gospel is about re-connecting with creator. The best portrayal of Gospel in the Bible is the Story of Prodigal son.

What's interesting from the story of prodigal son is that the brother was really disturbed that the father would love the other son just as much even after he lived an unhealthy lifestyle (while the brother obeyed Father's commands)... and perhaps even retained some of his habits upon coming back. But the point is that the Father did.

I find many adventist sentiments to be on the prodigal brother's side... I mean, how can God forgive a smoker... right? How can he forgive sexually immoral? But that's my entire point. We don't come to God clean, neither our "perceived cleanness" should be what attracts people. I see a lot of "Study shows...Adventists are the healthiest people"... and it bothers me in light of the fact that my dad is much healthier than most adventists.

As I said... there is nothing wrong with tea in a foyer if it means that people who don't know God would get to know Him better. It's not our job to "save" people, or to make them healthier. It's personal decision upon certain understanding that can not come without some prerequisites (according to the Bible at least)... one of such would be the Spirit of God.

[Stan]

has anyone else noticed this is off topic?

[fccool]

Not unless you have AJAX enabled forum that would post back real time as I type my lengthy replies But I think that this issue is relevant. It deals with "unclean" and "clean" substances that would be bad for a church to endorse.

[Marie]

In the texts given one needs to understand what this is all about. The people had been complaining about not having the foods of Egypt and the complaining went on. Meat of course was a part of this. They were tired of the food from heaven, manna. Finely God gave them plenty of meat to eat and told them to do as they please, and they did. They ate their full and many died. God was allowing them to have their own way, He was not demanding that they eat it. He knew that they would be much healthier without it. That is why it was never in the diet that God gave man to start with.

Now days meat is not clean at all. It is not like it was even back a thousand years, let alone farther back. It has been getting more and more of a bad food to eat all the time. And those who sell it have gotten more and more dishonest all the time too. Farmers sell ill cows for butchering that they dare not tell them of the fact that the cow is ill and loose their money on the deal. Have you ever talked to people that used to be in this business and came out of it telling the horrors of what we are eating? Also, how many times do you think at the last stage, in the store, that the butchers redden the meat to make it look fresh? A good hint on this is that the outside is red and the inside is dark. After learning about this even Oprah said that she would never eat another burger. She was sued for saying that on t.v. too. When people know what they are eating they either stop eating it or they don't care. But no one can say that it is clean meat anymore, that they are eating, once they know the truth about it.

[fccool]

Marrie, I can certainly see your argument... but it avoids one minor flaw. And this flaw of course is that Jesus was both God and ate meat. I think he did because it was a command from the father to do so. For Jew of that time vegetarianism was not an option. If you did not kill a lamb and ate it then the angel of death would not "Pass you over". For them, these acts of Passover was acts of faith. It could have been easily something else that excluded meat eating. Yet it was for illustration purposes. And one of the lessons that I derive from it is that vegetarian diet does not good outside of the overall picture of what God is trying to do.

To make it relevant to the topic... we should keep that in mind... that our outreach activities should not only be self-serving and self centered, but also relevant to people from all walks in life without condemning them, but let God change them. What do you think about that?

[Woody]

has anyone else noticed this is off topic?

Stan. I have been suggesting this over and over without any success. I doubt that your calls will be of any help either. But I would so much love to get back to the good topic that Liz started.