Poll about Your Local Church's Services

[fccool]

go on....

[Woody]

I love coffee and donuts between Sabbath School and Church. It is a great way to fellowship with members. I don't drink the coffee but the donuts I do partake of. Yum.

[GreatLakesGramma]

I am impressed by how much your "little" church is doing. How little is your church (how many members attend) and how close do they all live to the church? We have about a hundred who come each week and yet we have very little going on.

Tell us more about how you guys got started and what all you do.

Our membership is around 120, with 60 to 80 attending each week. We also have a church school with 6 or 7 students. I think most of the members live within 10 or 15 miles.

Our church has not always had so much going on. I think it all started out slowly, and things got added little by little. One very big advantage our church has is that it's close to the state capitol, where our Conference office is, so we always have at least a few Conference officials and employees among our membership. Their experience and training is helpful. We also have outstanding lay leadership, and a high percentage of active members - the outgoing, go-getter type.

We we started attending there 10 years ago, the church school was there, with Pathfinder and Adventurer clubs. We had a booth at the county fair every year. There was a weekly prayer meeting, with a small but faithful attendance. At one point, prayer meeting was suspended for the holiday season, and wasn't resumed afterward.

Soon after a gymnasium was built onto the church school, we began hosting the local Blood Drives for the Red Cross. This was the first thing that brought significant community attention, and the beginning of most of the programs we have now. Red Cross discontinued the local drives after a few years, but our leadership was determined not to lose our new position as a positive contributor to the needs of the community.

Family Fun night was started soon after the gymnasium was built. I think the pastor got together with the social committee and personal ministries to create Fun Night. They believed that more people would attend prayer meeting if there were other things going on at the same time to interest family members who weren't interested in prayer meeting, and that community members might also be drawn in. It has been a great success in all respects.

From the start of Family Fun Night, there was always something health-related going on. Our health and temperance leader was a nurse practitioner who had worked at the Battle Creek Lifestyle Center. She was very mission-minded, with excellent resources and many ideas. After the first or second vegetarian cooking series, they started a monthly supper club during Fun Night. Each month there was a special emphasis, such as holiday foods during the holiday season. These vegetarian events have been very well attended, with more community members in attendance than church members. All of the health programs have had similar results. For a short time, there was also a monthly Sunday ladies' luncheon, similar to the supper clubs, but they didn't last long, as there weren't enough church members who could cook for them and attend them.

Starting about 1 1/2 year ago, the Sabbath School counsel started planning and promoting outreach programs for the SS classes, including the weekly luncheons. They introduced new programs about once a quarter, but I'm not aware of any others that have taken root as firmly.

In 2007, during the community's Frontier Days, our church rented the sanctuary model, as a means of interesting people in the upcoming satellite seminar by Shawn Boonstra, "The Presence". The Sanctuary committee came up with a number of interesting and educational things to add to the tours, and the church was added to the festival's bus route. This was so well received by the community that we repeated it this year, and I believe they intend to repeat this annually. In fact, interest and attendance was even greater this year.

Our Personal Ministries and Health and Temperance committee were inspired to be a lot more aggressive after the first sanctuary display. There have been 2 depression seminars so far, and people keep asking when the next one is going to be. Our first stop smoking seminar is currently underway. These are the only ones I can remember that have been held separately from Fun Night.

The classes at Fun Night mostly are members teaching things they have an interest in. I don't remember what all has been taught, but they usually have at least 2 different classes going on at a time. I do remember they've had photography and computer literacy. The aerobics class isn't really a class with a teacher. They work out to a Leslie Sansone video. The pastor or an elder leads the Bible classes, which serve as Prayer Meeting. These all take place in the school, with volleyball in the gym. They are open to everyone, and advertised in the newspaper.

This is all I can think of right now. Health considerations prevent me from participating in church programs, but it seems to me that lately, they have been having one thing right after another.

[GreatLakesGramma]

Originally Posted By: Stan Jensen

has anyone else noticed this is off topic?

Stan. I have been suggesting this over and over without any success. I doubt that your calls will be of any help either. But I would so much love to get back to the good topic that Liz started.

Maybe this thread needs to be divided into two threads, so the one won't get lost in the other. I noticed more than a dozen posts added while I was typing mine, and most of them are on the coffee topic.

----

It took a long time to type it, because I kept leaving the room to ask my husband and son for additional information, plus I took a break to fix dinner and eat it with my guys. I am not really that slow.

[Woody]

Wow. Your church really sounds like one I would enjoy being in. Thanks for sharing GLG.

[phkrause]

Good post fccool.

pk

[Liz]

I appreciate all the comments, I got a little lost in the digestive process. <GRIN>

My next questions are for those whose church provides counseling, does the pastor do it, or is there a church member that does it, or what?

For the people that have other children's programs--other than Pathfinder's, Adventures, AY and Family Fun Night--what are they? I am just trying to figure out what other avenues are out there that will bring the kids into the church and keep them involved.

[olger]

Our Men's Ministry leader does the counseling. His wife is Women's ministry leader.

oG

[Beryl]

Quote:

(I think I've made a point that Jesus did partake of meats)

Yes, Jesus did partake of meat. However, do you realise what happened to that meat before it was cooked? EVERY SPECK OF BLOOD WAS REMOVED! Ask a strict Jew. They will only eat "kosher" meat -- meat that has had every bit of blood removed!!

Yes, God gave Noah (and humans in general) permission to eat meat BUT (Genesis 9:4) "...you must not eat meat that has its lifeblood still in it". And the lifespan, over a few generations, fell from Noah's 600 years, to around 70 years.

You may remember that when the Israelites were preparing for the night they would leave Egypt, God instituted the Passover --and they were told to prepare the passover lamb "with bitter herbs" -- that was customary, in order to put some taste into the bloodless meat.

The blood is what carries the cholesterol, the urine, the germs, etc. And by obeying God's command (as the strict Jews do even today)the strict Jews are saved from many illnesses.

Everything that Ellen White said about health has been verified -- by Australian non-Adventist specialists. A book regarding this was published (I think it was last year, if not, then 2007) I can't remember the name just at the moment, but it verified that the teachings were, in fact, correct according to the knowledge that we have today. God doesn't make mistakes. Even our Government Health Departments are telling people to cut the meat consumption and eat more of nature's foods. The maximum amount of meat suggested by the Commonwealth Health Dept. is a thin slice that would fit into the palm of the eater's hand!

God gave us the health message so that our minds would be clear, our health strong, and so that, as a people, we would stand out from those around us. You may choose to ignore God's advice. God never forces anyone, however the consequences are yours.

Beryl

[phkrause]

Very good post Beryl

pk

[fccool]

Quote:

(I think I've made a point that Jesus did partake of meats)

God gave us the health message so that our minds would be clear, our health strong, and so that, as a people, we would stand out from those around us. You may choose to ignore God's advice. God never forces anyone, however the consequences are yours.

Beryl

Beryl... if you take "averages" and "the best of", the healthiest people on earth are Japanese. They consume a fair amounts of seafood... both clean and unclean.

Health really means little considering the fact that give 10+ or 10- years we all will die. And that's kind of my point. Bible is not an exercise or nutrition book. Neither it was made to improve our exercise or nutrition habits.

1 Timothy 4:7-8 "Exercise thyself rather unto godliness. For bodily exercise profits little, but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come."

Exercise profits little in a sense that it makes little difference in the end result for all - death. So, we have to set a priority... what do we value more? People's spiritual health, or people's physical health?

That's why our message should be such. You can eat healthy healthy all you want, you can live a healthy life all you can, but in the long run we are all dead +-10 years in most cases. What then? That's what Bible is about.

Don't get me wrong, I don't discount the benefits that you will receive from living a godly life. BUT, this is not what Bible message is about, and this is not how we are to stand out in the world. We are to reflect God's character through the fruits of the Spirit first and foremost. The physical well being comes second (and should come naturally as God impacts our lives).

[Beryl]

Quote:

So, we have to set a priority... what do we value more? People's spiritual health, or people's physical health?

Hi, fccool, sorry, you missed my point. Our physical health affects our spiritual health -- and there is a lot of scientific evidence concerning that. During the last 3 years there have been two x three day International Conferences on Spirituality and Health held in Adelaide (South Australia), which have been attended by health professionals from all over the world -- both Adventists and non-Adventists. The evidence that has been presented has been outstanding, how that those two are definitely linked together -- spirituality and health.

So, it is not a matter of which we value more -- it is that BOTH must be valued. I mentioned a group of drugs -- all ending in "ine". Each of those drugs affect the brain, changing the way it deals with information. One of the really bad ones is caffeine. The Holy Spirit reaches us through one place -- the frontal lobe of the brain. That is the area which is first reached by caffeine, affecting the way we deal with other information being transmitted to us.

Let me move away from the "ine" group of drugs. Let us look at alcohol. About 20% of the alcohol is absorbed directly through the stomach walls, entering the bloodstream, and within seconds it is in the frontal lobe, and the person is less able to make right decisions. that IS ONE REASON why some men, when they "pick up" a young lady, will offer her an alcoholic drink. Within seconds that alcohol has reached that frontal lobe, and she is less likely to make a right decision when asked for a "favour" -- and I am sure that you know what I mean. If one drink doesn't work a second drink is offered -- and he has the answer that he wants. When I am assessing a person's health and the question of alcohol comes up, I speak about this effect of alcohol, and they usually give a wry smile -- they know exactly why they buy the female a drink!

Now, let's take this a little further. That frontal lobe is also the place where the devil tempts us. It is the only place where he (or the Holy Spirit or anyone) can speak to us. When that frontal lobe is clear, we recognise the temptations of the devil, and turn away, but when drugs of any kind are used, that frontal lobe cannot work as well, and we are less likely to make the right decisions.

Tea, Coffee, Coke -- all of these contain those mind-altering drugs -- some of them more than others. Some of them have certain medicinal aids, and the occasional one used medicinally is not going to have long-standing consequences. However, they are all addictive, and that is where the real problem comes in. When a person becomes addicted the frontal lobe is never FULLY open to the Holy Spirit.

I could go on further, but I won't. I just want you to understand that our health DOES have a great effect on our spirituality. Paul tells us in 1 Corinthians 6:19, 20, "Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own, you were bought at a price. Therefore honour God with your body."

Health -- both physical and spiritual -- go hand in hand.

God bless,

Beryl

[fccool]

Beryl,

Again, there is LOGICAL PROBLEM with such view... both empirically and Biblically. Now, don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to argue that we should not care about our bodies. We absolutely should. On PRACTICAL level it does make a huge difference! As you have pointed out, we would have more energy, be more focused on what we do and thus have a more clear mind.

The problem that I see that exists is the assumptions that one thing will lead to another. Ask yourself, is it possible to be healthy without believing in God of the Bible? I think it's clear that YES, it is possible. I think even you would agree, that both healthy without Christ, and non-healthy without Christ are in a same place(spiritually)... IN FACT, I would even go as far to say that people who are not healthy have a greater need for God.

What we as Adventists tend to do is to say "Look at us, look how healthy we are... it's because we follow what God told us". What my Dad would say to that " Look at me, look how healthy I am... much healthier than most Adventists... and I don't need God."

The health message makes sense for those who are saved, not for those who are lost. An alcoholic feeling effects of the "hang over" CAN understand God's truth and change. If we approach God's truth from perspective of health, where does it leave people who don't believe in God, and who practice healthy habits?

I agree that spiritual and physical are linked, but I tend to view it the other way around based on the examples I've demonstraded above. Spiritual effects physical. You can't heal spiritual side of us by going the way of physical things.

I am by no means say that we should not care about our bodies. Only fool would not. I am saying that we should be careful how we approach people and look at the overall impact of our message... what kind of mentality it is conveying.

Now, with the above in mind... let's look at the above verse...

Quote:

1 Corinthians 6:19, 20, "Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own, you were bought at a price. Therefore honour God with your body."

I encourage you to applying the above verse in it's proper context of the verse prior to it .. 6:18:

Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body.

It is NOT talking about our physical health. A man who commits adultery may not be less healthy than a man who does not. Physical health is NOT the context of this verse. The context is a spiritual health of knowing proper purpose for things, as expressed in the prior verses:

12"Everything is permissible for me"—but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible for me"—but I will not be mastered by anything. 13"Food for the stomach and the stomach for food"—but God will destroy them both. The body is not meant for sexual immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body.

I don't disagree on the points that you are making, Beryl. We just need to get our priorities straight. Reaching unsaved via "health message" is like feeding the dead.

[Beryl]

Quote:

I encourage you to applying the above verse in it's proper context of the verse prior to it .. 6:18:

Quote:

We just need to get our priorities straight. Reaching unsaved via "health message" is like feeding the dead.

Hi, fccool, thank you for your reply, but may I suggest that you take some time to read through the Gospels. You may then notice that Jesus used healing as "the opening wedge" in His ministry, and we are encouraged to do the same.

In Matthew 4:23-25 we read, "Jesus went throughout Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, preaching the good news of the kingdom, and healing every disease and sickness among the people. News about Him spread all over Syria, and people brought to Him all who were ill with various diseases, those suffering severe pain, the demon-possessed, those having seizures, and the paralyzed, and He healed them. Large crowds from Galilee, the Decapolis, Jerusalem, Judea and the region across the Jordan followed Him.

(Chapter 5) Now when He saw the crowds, He went up on a mountainside and sat down. His disciples came to Him, and He began to teach then, saying, "Blessed are the poor in spirit....(through to Matthew 7:27). (Vv 28, 29) "When Jesus had finished saying these things, the crowds were amazed at His teaching, because He taught as one who had authority, and not as their teachers of the law." Note -- Jesus healed them first, then He taught them.

In reaching the people firstly through the health message we are following the example of Jesus, and the instructions that He gave to Ellen White.

When Jesus sent out His disciples (part of their training), He gave them this instruction: "As you go, preach this message: "The kingdom of heaven is near. Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy, drive out demons. Freely you have received, freely give." (Matthew 10)

The Mission Statement of the Adventist Health Association of WA is "The Adventist Health Association of Western Australia exists for the purpose of promoting healthful living and the spreading of the Gospel of Jesus Christ to our wider community." and in doing this we are following the instructions given by God to Ellen White.

“When properly conducted, the health work is an entering wedge, making a way for other truths to reach the heart. When the third angel’s message is received in its fullness, health reform will be given its place in the councils of the conference, in the work of the church, in the home, at the table, and in all the household arrangements. Then the right arm will serve and protect the body.” Counsels on Diet and Food—Page 73.

Quote:

You can't heal spiritual side of us by going the way of physical things.

Well, Christ did!! He used it as "the entering wedge". Over the years I have worked with alcoholics. What do I do? Hit them with the Bible verses regarding the effects of wine (Prov. 29-35)? No need to do that -- they already know that! I let them know that I am there as a friend. I see to it that they have enough food, that they have enough blankets, I encourage them to obtain help, and provide transport as needed for medical help and counselling. While they are in rehabilitation I see to it that their living quarters are given a complete clean, and that those "hidden bottles" are destroyed -- no, they weren't there for when they returned home, just been hidden during their own attempts to give up.

During their rehabilitation I encourage them to trust Jesus and pray with them. Most of the alcoholics that I have met already have asked God for help -- and that is when God introduces them to someone who will treat them as a child of God.

One young man that I was working with had been brought up an Adventist and had wandered the wrong way. His mother had certainly tried the "religion" way -- and that did not work.

I visited with him, and just listened to him, and allowed him to talk out all of his frustrations. Eventually he asked for a Bible, which I obtained for him. I took him to the court the day he was sentenced to prison for something he had done while drunk. I visited him in prison. We exchanged letters, and I could sense his faith in God growing stronger. Eventually he was reconciled with his mum. He died of a massive heart attack while in prison, and I expect to see him again in heaven. I still have his letters -- evidence of a changing heart.I will not part with them.

God meets people where they are in life, and in many people health is the opening wedge.

Quote:

I encourage you to applying the above verse in it's proper context of the verse prior to it .. 6:18:

Yes, I am well aware of that, and I believe that I have used it in its larger context. You see, the particular people Paul was speaking to were engaged in a practice that would damage their link with God. Engaging in wrong eating or drinking, failing to care for our bodies, failing to care for the mind -- all physical things -- are detrimental to our spiritual life as well.

Quote:

We just need to get our priorities straight. Reaching unsaved via "health message" is like feeding the dead.

No, no! When we reach them with the health message we prolong their physical lives so that they can concentrate on their spiritual lives! THAT is getting things in the right perspective!

God bless,

Beryl

[Neil D]

Ok you two...You guys want to speak past each other., OK, but not before I have had my say.....

EGW has made some really good statements that the physcal sickness affect our spirituality....I think you both agree with that....But what FCCool is trying to say, is that our spiritual natures [one of the second components to humans] also affects our physcial nature as well..That pathway goes BOTH ways...Concider the man at the healing waters who had been lying nearly 38 years, awaiting to be placed into the "healing waters" when disturbed....And Jesus healed him on the Sabbath...Remember that man?

It was his spirit that needed to be healed....it affected his physical body....

Or how about the boy that thru himself down, concidered possessed by a demon...His father spoke those famous lines " Help me in my unbelief." Those were spiritual healings before physcial healings...

Quote:

God meets people where they are in life, and in many people health is the opening wedge.

Remember, as we heal various parts of the human, emotional, physical, and spiritual, each of these componets affect other parts of the human as well....We don't seem to understand this and we must be wise to discern which part needs healing first...Sometimes it is the spiritual before the physcial...sometimes it is the emotional before the physcial...but mostly we can see the physcial get healed, and then the spiritual...

So, guys, come on....you are both right. We have hospitals, but we also have mental wards as well...As for the spiritual, well....the physcial place of healing is usually called "church".....

[Beryl]

Thanks, Neill. You are quite correct. To try to split the two apart is incorrect. Our physical wellness affects our spiritual wellness (try concentrating on the sermon while you have a thumping headache!), and our spiritual walk with God affects our physical (this has been proven in hospitals, in Europe, America, and Australia). We cannot make a broad statement that we need to concentrate on the spiritual and get the physical in order later.

We are to "meet the people where they are" -- and that means listening carefully to find out where they really are, and following the Spirit's leading as to which "medicine" they need first. Jesus met people where they were.

During the past 12 months, our Adventist Health Association has had almost 4,000 go through the Health Age Assessment program. The majority of people are only interested in their physical health, but the opportunity is there for them to indicate an interest in the spiritual. Many of them do, and so we can talk with them about both the physical and the spiritual, and offer them appropriate literature. All of them receive an invitation to take the written or on-line version of the Adventist Media Centre Health Course, and many of them take up the offer. Research has shown that 44% of those who complete that course go on to request one of the spiritually based courses.

God bless,

Beryl

[fccool]

Beryl,

The only thing I can say to that is.... good job! Keep on keeping on.