Is this greed to seek help for the kids?

[Neil D]

Ok, let's say you're the mother of these eight new kids. Would you seek the media to finance these kids? what would you concider doing?

Octuplets’ mother wants Oprah to turn her into a $2m TV starJohn Harlow, Los Angeles

THE single mother of octuplets born in California last week is seeking $2m (£1.37m) from media interviews and commercial sponsorship to help pay the cost of raising the children.

Nadya Suleman, 33, plans a career as a television childcare expert after it emerged last week that she already had six children before giving birth on Monday. She now has 14 below the age of eight.

Although still confined to an LA hospital bed, she intends to talk to two influential television hosts this week — media mogul Oprah Winfrey, and Diane Sawyer, who presents Good Morning America.

Her family has told agents she needs cash from deals such as nappy sponsorship — she will get through 250 a week in the next few months — and the agents will gauge public reaction to her story.

Octuplets' mother may have had multiple IVF

Her earning power, though, could be diminished by a growing ethical and medical controversy. Experts believe that the unnamed fertility specialists who gave her in vitro fertilisation (IVF) should not have implanted so many embryos, and in choosing to carry all eight to term, Suleman ignored guidelines, risking both their health and her own.

US public reaction has been mixed: many have asked how an unemployed single mother can raise 14 children, as her first six have already strained the family budget. Angela and Ed Suleman, Nadya’s parents,bought her a two-bedroom bungalow in the suburb of Whittier in March 2007, but soon after got into debt and had to leave their own home.

They filed for bankruptcy and moved in with their daughter and grandchildren. Last week her father said he would return to his native Iraq to work as a translator and driver.

Angela Suleman, who is caring for the first six children — one of whom is autistic — while her daughter is in hospital, said yesterday that she had consulted a psychologist over Nadya’s “obsession with children”.

Nadya Suleman, who describes herself as a “professional student” living off education grants and parental money, broke up with her boyfriend before the birth of her first child seven years ago.

The identity of the octuplets’ father remains unknown, but local reports suggest they were conceived with frozen sperm donated by a friend she met while working at a fertility clinic. He is the father of her twins, born two years ago.

Michael Tucker of the Georgia Reproductive Clinic, Atlanta, said Suleman’s story stunned him. “We are policed by the American Society for Reproductive Medicine, which frowns upon implanting more than two or three embryos at a time. It is remarkable that any practitioner would undertake such a practice.”

The babies, born nine weeks prematurely by C-section, were attended to by 46 medical staff, who expected seven babies. When the eighth — a boy — appeared, doctors were “confounded”.

Angela Suleman said her daughter was advised to terminate some of the embryos in the first 12 weeks of pregnancy for the sake of her health, but she refused because she did not know how to make such a life-or-death decision.

“She doesn’t have any more, so it’s over now. It has to be,” said the grandmother.

[Amelia]

Grandma: Octuplets mom obsessed with kids

'Instead of becoming a kindergarten teacher ... she started having them'

The Associated Press

Jan. 31, 2009

LOS ANGELES - The woman who gave birth to octuplets this week conceived all 14 of her children through in vitro fertilization, is not married and has been obsessed with having children since she was a teenager, her mother said.

Angela Suleman told The Associated Press she was not supportive when her daughter, Nadya Suleman, decided to have more embryos implanted last year.

"It can't go on any longer," she said in a phone interview Friday. "She's got six children and no husband. I was brought up the traditional way. I firmly believe in marriage. But she didn't want to get married."

Nadya Suleman, 33, gave birth Monday in nearby Bellflower. She was expected to remain in the hospital for at least a few more days, and her newborns for at least a month.

A spokeswoman at Kaiser Permanente Bellflower Medical Center said the babies were doing well and seven were breathing unassisted.

While her daughter recovers, Angela Suleman is taking care of the other six children, ages 2 through 7, at the family home in Whittier, about 15 miles east of downtown Los Angeles.

She said she warned her daughter that when she gets home from the hospital, "I'm going to be gone."

A mother's dilemma

Angela Suleman said her daughter always had trouble conceiving and underwent in vitro fertilization treatments because her fallopian tubes are "plugged up."

There were frozen embryos left over after her previous pregnancies and her daughter didn't want them destroyed, so she decided to have more children.

Her mother and doctors have said the woman was told she had the option to abort some of the embryos and, later, the fetuses. She refused.

Her mother said she does not believe her daughter will have any more children.

"She doesn't have any more (frozen embryos), so it's over now," she said. "It has to be."

Her daughter wanted to have children since she was a teenager, "but luckily she couldn't," her mother said.

"Instead of becoming a kindergarten teacher or something, she started having them, but not the normal way," he mother said.

The mother's obsession with children caused Angela Suleman considerable stress, so she sought help from a psychologist, who told her to order her daughter out of the house.

"Maybe she wouldn't have had so many kids then, but she is a grown woman," Angela Suleman said. "I feel responsible and I didn't want to throw her out."

Little psychological research has been conducted on the reasons some mothers seem hooked on repeated pregnancies. David Diamond, a co-director for the Center for Reproductive Psychology in San Diego, said mothers can be drawn to repeat pregnancies for a number of reasons, with some finding the experience so satisfying they choose to become surrogates.

'How can you afford that'

Yolanda Garcia, 49, of Whittier, said she helped care for the mother's autistic son three years ago.

"From what I could tell back then, she was pretty happy with herself, saying she liked having kids and she wanted 12 kids in all," Garcia told the Long Beach Press-Telegram.

"She told me that all of her kids were through in vitro, and I said 'Gosh, how can you afford that and go to school at the same time?"' she added. "And she said it's because she got paid for it."

Garcia said she did not ask for details.

The mother holds a 2006 degree in child and adolescent development from California State University, Fullerton, and as late as last spring she was studying for a master's degree in counseling, college spokeswoman Paula Selleck told the Press-Telegram.

Her fertility doctor has not been identified. Her mother told the Los Angeles Times all the children came from the same sperm donor but she declined to identify him.

Birth certificates reviewed by The Associated Press identify a David Solomon as the father for the four oldest children. Certificates for the other children were not immediately available.

The news that the octuplets' mother already had six children sparked an ethical debate. Some medical experts were disturbed to hear that she was offered fertility treatment, and troubled by the possibility that she was implanted with so many embryos.

Others worried that she would be overwhelmed trying to raise so many children and would end up relying on public support.

The eight babies — six boys and two girls — were delivered by Cesarean section weighing between 1 pound, 8 ounces and 3 pounds, 4 ounces. Forty-six physicians and staff assisted in the deliveries.

[GreatLakesGramma]

Quote:

Ok, let's say you're the mother of these eight new kids. Would you seek the media to finance these kids? what would you concider doing?

I would never be in such a position. This woman has got to have emotional or mental problems to deliberately do something like this. Anyone who would consult her as an expert on anything has got to have rocks in their head.

[Jeannieb43]

All I can say is, she can have as many children as she is able to support and care for. When she runs out of money and goes applying for Welfare benefits, there I draw the line. She shouldn't qualify for using my tax money when she has done such an irresponsible thing as this. Those poor kids will suffer; there's no way a single human being can raise that many children alone. So she'll need to hire a lot of full-time help to feed them and diaper them and take them for walks and teach them their manners... etc., etc.

I wonder if she went into Mexico to have the embryos implanted. Or somewhere where there are no restrictions on such things. It certainly was an unethical act on the part of the doctor who implanted so many embryos.

[Liz]

Here are my thoughts. I think that because we have celebritized the Duggars, and that other family John & Kate plus 8, and made them extremely rich. Then obviously this was bound to happen. Some woman out there was going to see all the perks and all the money and "go" for it. I believe that "we" as a society have created this monster; and now "we" are berating this woman because she actually tried it.

I heard that she wants to be known as a "Child Care Expert", when she hasn't even brought those 8 babies home and tried caring for all 14 yet.

I feel bad for these kids, all 14, because they are going to need help. But large organizations are afraid to reach out to them for fear of society at large threatening to boycott. That is pathetic.

I think we need to take those shows off the air (Duggars and J&K + 8), and then do what I heard a radio talk guy say--that whenever any female goes into a fertility clinic they have to sign a waiver that says "you may have multiple kids, we as a society will not pay you a dime just because you did, you need to make darn sure you can afford every kid you may have", then give her a complimentary set of diapers and formula and move on.

[Jeannieb43]

Liz, I think you're right.

I didn't know anything about the Duggars, and I've only seen John & Kate Plus 8 once or twice when at my daughter's house [she's interested because she has kids that age too].

People these days are always trying to do something in order to become famous. Or rich. Without taking any responsibility themselves for the long-term consequences.

[GreatLakesGramma]

All I can say is, she can have as many children as she is able to support and care for.

She couldn't support or care for the six she already had. Her parents have been helping her financially, and her mother has been taking care of the children all along. Her mother said she's had enough, and that when this mother and the 8 babies come home from the hospital, Grandma's not going to be there.

[Nan]

I am hugely concerned by the ethics of any body who would put more embryos into a woman with 6 children

including 2 year old twins, and to replace this many is totally irresponsible. (I do note that it

is possible for replaced embryos to split, creating a multiple pregnancy that was not intended, but that would

not explain this situation.)

There is one piece of good news, if she has no embryos left.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

I agree with Nan. Total irresponsibility on the part of the practitioner.

And the mom is surely going to end up on public support/assistance. Since her mother isn't going to be around to help anymore, I wonder if she has any other relatives or friends - who is going to help?

What a sad situation - for the babies.

And I also agree with Liz -

Quote:

I think we need to take those shows off the air (Duggars and J&K + 8), and then do what I heard a radio talk guy say--that whenever any female goes into a fertility clinic they have to sign a waiver that says "you may have multiple kids, we as a society will not pay you a dime just because you did, you need to make darn sure you can afford every kid you may have", then give her a complimentary set of diapers and formula and move on.

[Gail]

With the Duggans, isn't it a part of their religion to have a "quiver" full of children? They believe they are blessed of God, don't they? And aren't they taking the financial cost of raising them on themselves?

I would consider that at least more responsible than the single mom's position...

[Liz]

The Duggars do belong to a "quiver full" religion, however, they get paid for doing that show and the show pays for them to have vacations and all sorts of things.

The John and Kate plus 8 people, just moved into a 1.3 million dollar house thanks to their show, and the dad quite his job just so he could do the show.

This is what I object to. I don't care if one has a "quiver full" or not, I object to the "glamorization" of it, making people think that "If they have a bunch of kids then 'someone' else will step in and help pay for them".

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

An *extreme* amount of attention is given to people who have a large number of children. While it serves to propalgate the Duggan's ideologic/religious ideas, that attention also serves to show people (like this irresponsible woman) that large numbers of children are just peachy keen and you can make lots of money and get huge amounts of attention from it. And we will pay for it all, unlike the Duggans.

[phkrause]

I would think that if you are blessed you wouldn't need to have embryos. Just a thought.

pk

[Joe_in_RP]

Don't be surprise if CPS takes these kids.

[GreatLakesGramma]

I read another article about this woman yesterday morning that puts another light on the story. Nobody planned on or expected this huge multiple birth. She has had all her children by in vitro fertilization, and every time, they have implanted 6 embryos. Most of them were lost. So the doctors once again implanted 6, the last 6 she had frozen. Only this time, they not only all took, 2 of them divided into twins. They suggested selective abortion, but she couldn't bring herself to choose to kill any of them.

Sounds to me like she is strongly pro-life. She had this pregnancy because she had frozen embryos, which she probably felt were already her children, and that she needed to give them life. So I don't think we should be too hard on her. I feel a lot more sympathetic to her after reading that article.

[Nan]

I read another article about this woman yesterday morning that puts another light on the story. Nobody planned on or expected this huge multiple birth. She has had all her children by in vitro fertilization, and every time, they have implanted 6 embryos. Most of them were lost. So the doctors once again implanted 6, the last 6 she had frozen. Only this time, they not only all took, 2 of them divided into twins. They suggested selective abortion, but she couldn't bring herself to choose to kill any of them.

Sounds to me like she is strongly pro-life. She had this pregnancy because she had frozen embryos, which she probably felt were already her children, and that she needed to give them life. So I don't think we should be too hard on her. I feel a lot more sympathetic to her after reading that article.

This was appallingly bad medical practice. I read somewhere that the doctor who performed the embryo transfer is to be

investigated, which is entirely appropriate.

[Amelia]

Quote:

This is what I object to. I don't care if one has a "quiver full" or not, I object to the "glamorization" of it, making people think that "If they have a bunch of kids then 'someone' else will step in and help pay for them".

It doesn't take a TV show for this to happen. Women have been having children to stay on welfare and get everything paid for, for years.

[Amelia]

Taxpayers may be covering octuplet mom’s bills

Hospital where 33-year-old gave birth asking state to reimburse its costs

The Associated Press

Feb. 11, 2009

LOS ANGELES - A big share of the financial burden of raising Nadya Suleman’s 14 children could fall on the shoulders of California’s taxpayers, compounding the public furor in a state already billions of dollars in the red.

Even before the 33-year-old single, unemployed mother gave birth to octuplets last month, she had been caring for her six other children with the help of $490 a month in food stamps, plus Social Security disability payments for three of the youngsters. The public aid will almost certainly be increased with the new additions to her family.

Also, the hospital where the octuplets are expected to spend seven to 12 weeks has requested reimbursement from Medi-Cal, the state’s Medicaid program, for care of the premature babies, according to the Los Angeles Times. The cost has not been disclosed.

Word of the public assistance has stoked the furor over Suleman’s decision to have so many children by having embryos implanted in her womb.

Harsh criticism toward the mother

“It appears that, in the case of the Suleman family, raising 14 children takes not simply a village but the combined resources of the county, state and federal governments,” Los Angeles Times columnist Tim Rutten wrote in Wednesday’s paper. He called Suleman’s story “grotesque.”

On the Internet, bloggers rained insults on Suleman, calling her an “idiot,” criticizing her decision to have more children when she couldn’t afford the ones she had, and suggesting she be sterilized.

“It’s my opinion that a woman’s right to reproduce should be limited to a number which the parents can pay for,” Charles Murray wrote in a letter to the Los Angeles Daily News. “Why should my wife and I, as taxpayers, pay child support for 14 Suleman kids?”

She was also berated on talk radio, where listeners accused her of manipulating the system and being an irresponsible mother.

“From the outside you can tell that this woman was playing the system,” host Bryan Suits said on the “Kennedy and Suits” show on KFI-AM. “You’re damn right the state should step in and seize the kids and adopt them out.”

Suleman’s spokesman, Mike Furtney, urged understanding.

“I would just ask people to consider her situation and she has been under a tremendous amount of pressure that no one could be prepared for,” Furtney said.

A call to Suleman’s publicist Mike Furtney was not immediately returned.

In her only media interviews, Suleman told NBC’s “Today” she doesn’t consider the public assistance she receives to be welfare and doesn’t intend to remain on it for long.

Also, a Nadya Suleman Family Web Site has been set up to collect donations for the children. It features pictures of the mother and each octuplet and has instructions for making donations by check or credit card.

Suleman, whose six older children range in age from 2 to 7, said three of them receive disability payments. She said one is autistic, but she has not disclosed the other youngsters’ disabilities, and refused to say how much they get in payments.

In California, a low-income family can receive Social Security payments of up to $793 a month for each disabled child. Three children would amount to $2,379.

The Suleman octuplets’ medical costs have not been disclosed, but in 2006, the average cost for a premature baby’s hospital stay in California was $164,273, according to the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services. Eight times that equals $1.3 million.

For a single mother, the cost of raising 14 children through age 17 ranges from $1.3 million to $2.7 million, according to the U.S. Department of Agriculture.

Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger, who is struggling to close a $42 billion budget gap by cutting services, declined through a spokesman to comment on the taxpayer costs associated with the octuplets’ delivery and care.

Suleman received disability payments for an on-the-job back injury during a riot at a state mental hospital, collecting more than $165,000 over nearly a decade before the benefits were discontinued last year.

Some of the disability money was spent on in vitro fertilizations, which was used for all 14 of her children, Suleman said. Suleman said she also worked double shifts at the mental hospital and saved up for the treatments. She estimated that all her treatments cost $100,000.

Fourteen states, including California, require insurance companies to offer or provide coverage for infertility treatment, according to the National Conference of State Legislatures. But California has a law specifically excluding in vitro coverage. It’s not clear what type of coverage Suleman has.

In the NBC interview, Suleman said she will go back to California State University, Fullerton in the fall to complete her master’s degree in counseling, and will use student loans to support her children. She said she will rely on the school’s daycare center and volunteers.

[Jeannieb43]

She thinks she "doesn't need Welfare" because she already "has" money. Well, she's already receiving food stamps plus MedicAid(MediCal), right now. And now she says she'll get a student loan for the rest of her Master's degree program, and use THAT money to live on with her children! She already has a $50,000 outstanding student loan. She doesn't seem to realize that loans must be repaid!

It's obvious that this woman is mentally deficient. She has no concept of how much work it will be to RAISE these 14 children! And some of them might even turn out to be physically or mentally handicapped, having been born so premature.

Yes, it would be a blessing if Dept. of Children's Services did come in and take some of the 14. They need to be adopted into two-parent homes where they are wanted and can be supported properly.

[Liz]

I have watched this woman on t.v., is it just me or does she look a little like Angelina Jolie? When asked how she was going to care for her brood, she responded by saying that she was just going to be there for them and give them lots of hugs. As if that is all it took. I personally don't think she is grounded in reality. I don't think she needs to be a counselor, I think she needs counseling.

Those poor poor kids. As for CPS stepping in, I am all for keeping families together, but honestly how can you keep 14 siblings together?

[phkrause]

Its really unbelievable that these doctors did what they, When you hear all these things that keep coming out. They must have known.

pk

[Jeannieb43]

The way I've heard it, it was not "these" doctors who implanted the embryos into Suleman, but only "one" fertility specialist doctor. Somebody in Beverly Hills whom she had used for ALL her previous pregnancies. He also is known to have committed fraud in paying his taxes; he didn't actually report all his income, but stashed away the money he received (in cash) without recording it anywhere.

I don't see the Kaiser doctors as being at fault. All they did was perform a much-needed service, by delivering the infants and keeping them in their NICU.

But now Kaiser is having a horrible time trying to collect from MediCal [because Suleman is on welfare].

[Neil D]

Ooooh, I wouldn't worry that Kaiser ISN"T making money from this....they are doing well enough as it is...

Kaiser's CEO has offered, I am told, to take over the medicare portion of the goverment provided the goverment force all doctors/hospitals to learn ONE software program that is used thruout the country, AND everyone carry thier health card. And I agree, they will make $$$$$$

[Gail]

Quote:

But now Kaiser is having a horrible time trying to collect from MediCal [because Suleman is on welfare].

What's going around is coming around?

[Jeannieb43]

Quote:

But now Kaiser is having a horrible time trying to collect from MediCal [because Suleman is on welfare].

What's going around is coming around?

But Kaiser didn't get Suleman pregnant. They just took over her care later. So I don't see that they're to blame in all this.

But Neil: What Kaiser's CEO is proposing wouldn't be half bad -- IF we were not all required to have our medical care at Kaiser hospitals only. If Kaiser's management team can handle the paperwork for the new healthcare plan, and then let us still choose where we want to be treated (and by whom), then I could see such a program working okay.

Kaiser has a good infrastructure, so to speak. Their organization plan and payment schedules seem to work. (I don't have any first-hand experience, but from what I've seen on others' medical care there, I'd say they know what they're doing.)