The Ideal and the Real

[Bravus]

JimBob, if you get a chance for a time-out from the tennis match with Nico, I'd love to hear your response to my last post in this thread... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

[Nicodema]

Let's call it love-love ... go answer Bravus now.

[Guest]

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I'm sincerely asking 'How should I?'

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You have the example..you have the Spirit..you know some details on approaches...

We are rough diamonds...only God know us individually enough to polish which coarse edge that is required.

Love has to grow in knowledge and discernment..

How to approach a hidden audience will be based on feedback and input from human and Divine sources.

[Gail]

How much of this issue has to do with self?

[Guest]

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How much of this issue has to do with self?

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Depends on how selfish the person is... for some it is 52.6394 %

[Bravus]

Gail - oi, that's my *next* thread topic!

[Guest]

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THAT is what I read into that. I read it into everything. I can't help it; it's where I come from and what's more, I'm hypersensitive to the fact that a good 99.99% of the human population has been programmed to buy into this viral bullsh*x and pass it on to others memetically and abusively in one form or another. (Have you ever studied abuse dynamics, or how hate and harm replicate themselves? Or even viral or memetic replication? It's very interesting ...)

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I have a PHD in it..

Nico, you have to be close to the quintessential, transparent, internet drama queen..

HOLD IT!!..before you put me on ignore again...

I say that in a good way..it takes a brave soul to do that ..for some it takes desperation to do that...for some it takes a loss of self discipline/restraint to do that.

Yet...there are some women out there who get offended at your style of post ..on the personal level...because they are jealous that you are able to open up...or they are shocked that you do so. Some would love to have someone to confide and release/dump some of their baggage/shame.

If they could trust someone who they were sure that could handle it without betraying a confidence.

Anyway..just some tangent thoughts...

Now..who's serve is it??

[Nicodema]

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How much of this issue has to do with self?

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"Self" is another one of those things used as a convenient buzzword. You know, to invalidate someone else while preserving one's own. It's kind of like Person A sneering at Person B, "Oh, you ALWAYS have to have YOUR own way, DON'T you ..." -- just a convenient cover-up for the fact that Person A wants his at the moment and doesn't want that little fact exposed to the light or it will blow his scheme.

Everyone HAS a self, and cannot avoid doing so. If we did not have a "self" we would be an entirely fragmentary consciousness without any glue holding us together. Think schizophrenic in the extreme x100000. A million different scattered impulses, urges and voices belonging to everyone and no one at all, all at the same time. I don't think that's God's plan for our lives.

Usually what's meant by "self" is the carnal nature: self-servingness and the limitations of having only one's own perspective from which to really operate (we can learn of others' perspectives but cannot completely enter them firsthand; only vicariously, from within our own). I find the term "self" an unfortunate and confusing one to refer to this.

But none of this answers the question, so back to the question. How much? I'd say that depends on who is in the seat of greater responsibility in any given situation. Which is easier to do, and for which are we more reasonably held responsible: (a) not kicking others in the face, or ( not crying out in pain or surprise when kicked? The first is a conscious choice; the latter an unconscious reaction. Once the reaction has happened, certainly a person may then go on, as the pain subsides, to decide how to deal with the matter. They may bear a grudge or forget about it, they may make it an issue or drop it. Generally most reasonable people don't make an issue about it unless or until it happens several times from the same source and a question of deliberateness or "how long is this going to go on" comes up.

When someone reacts to being kicked in the face, how hard is it to simply apologize instead of giving a Ph.D. dissertation on why one's kick was justified, why one should be allowed to kick freely at whim, and just to prove the point, delivering more kicks to the face? Seriously people, get a clue. And what's up with this bully-turning-victim [censored]? Why does the face KICKER then get to pretend they are the one being sooooo wounded and sooooo mistreated, so that the one bleeding from the nose is left seeming like the fact of his bleeding and pain which he cannot control is now to blame for the person who gave it to him now feeling like HE does (presumably -- we all know this is nothing but a freaking stupid act!!! come ON, is anyone REALLY fooled by this?? well apparently many are, they did it in politics too!!!!!)

But I'm definitely no expert in human relations. They invented an entire personality disorder just to describe people like me. Not kidding. I would swear some researcher followed me around from the time I was 12 and just decided to call an entire categorical "type" after me. LOL. And We are not known for our seamless interface with the human species ...

OK I'm out of here, it's not like anyone is going to learn anything of value from listening to me rant and rave ...

[Nicodema]

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Nico, you have to be close to the quintessential, transparent, internet drama queen..

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Not by a long shot. Transparent, perhaps, but I'm not a drama queen. I'm not interested in drama whatsoever, and nothing I do or say has anything to do with "drama". I despise that [censored].

The proper word might be ... "demonstration"... There's a big difference ...

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I say that in a good way..it takes a brave soul to do that ..for some it takes desperation to do that...for some it takes a loss of self discipline/restraint to do that.

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Well, I'm not sure we would agree on what the "that" is in your sentence above, but I fit all three criteria. I've been called brave, I feel desperate, and self-restraint is not in my vocabulary, generally speaking (because most of those energies are consumed on a daily basis warding off things you good people don't HAVE to fight, 'nuff said).

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Yet...there are some women out there who get offended at your style of post ..on the personal level...because they are jealous that you are able to open up...or they are shocked that you do so. Some would love to have someone to confide and release/dump some of their baggage/shame.

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I don't know where you're going (or coming from) with this "some women out there" business. I don't know this hypothetical, indeterminate quantity or person(s) called "some women out there". Therefore I am not responsible for it and cannot be held accountable for it. If it wishes to manifest itself to me as a determinate factor, at that time I will assess whether I am obliged and if so, in what respect. But right now I have no clue what you're talking about, and were you someone else, I would only be able to imagine that you've been engaging in gossip behind my back. However ... you do not strike me as the gossipy type, nor the type that has nothing better to do with his time. I likewise have better things to do with mine, and worrying about indeterminate phantom quantities of "some people" is not one of them.

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If they could trust someone who they were sure that could handle it without betraying a confidence.

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Well, I guess they will have to speak up and speak for themselves. I don't betray confidences, but that doesn't mean I'm necessarily the right selection for someone to pull into their shame vortex, as it were. I'm not professionally trained to deal with that sort of thing in someone else. The most I could do would be to listen as an empathetic and understanding friend, with the understanding that I am NO WAY in ANY shape myself to provide a viable substitute for a full emotional support system in anybody else's life.

[Anthony!]

Bravus:

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I have no doubt that God's absolute ideal for married life is that two virgins come together on their wedding night for the first time, and are one another's friends, lovers and partners for all of their lives.

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I feel that the church leadership in their best of motives to encourage purity by upholding this ideal, unwittingly places the sexually experienced person in a place of second best.

It seems that the message is repeated continually that if you remain virgins until marriage, your love will be purer, your lovemaking (sex) will be better, and your marriage experience will be higher than those who enter even a Christian marriage as non-virgins.

But how do you qualify and quantify such a thing except for self-report? Who can determine who has a stronger love or not, based merely on virginity or non-virginity?

I believe that The Holy Spirit, working in the lives of men and women can overcome the effects of consequences. Oft times because of these consequences, a pure love can still be readily attainable, valued and cherished!

Let us remember that our flesh is made spiritually clean by the merits of the blood of Christ and by His grace. And for me, that is as good as virginity.

So, church leaders, please value your virginal marriage, BUT please don't value it as above or better than others experiences - it's just different.

[Gail]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />

Which is easier to do, and for which are we more reasonably held responsible: (a) not kicking others in the face, or ( not crying out in pain or surprise when kicked?

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The buzzword (self) was the best thing I could come up without having appropriate other words to describe thoughts that could offend one way or the other

I have thought on this subject a lot... And it is so easy to point fingers and look at others but conscience speaks volumes when one applies it to oneself. It is a challenge- the challenge being not view the other wrong and "me" as being right, but to try to work out understanding and reconciliation

With that in mind, that is where my question comes from. In reference to the quote above, both responses stem from what is inside the me. But- when folks get into riled up about differences, I notice that much of their focus is on the faults (again for lack of a better word) or stumbling blocks presented by the other person.

So, in asking the question I was reflecting my own thoughts of how I personally relate to this issue, as if I am the one in the midst of it. I mean, there are squabbles here, but we can and will run into squirmishes amidst any group of people. Learning what works here will help me elsewhere.

[Nicodema]

That's cool, Gail -- by the way, when I post stuff like that here, I'm also just talking about my own thoughts and experiences, how my mind processes stuff, not trying to issue a doctrinal pronouncement or hold it up as some kind of rule to which others ought to adhere. I'm just seeking to make myself understood as a human being, to communicate, in the hope that if people understand me better the chance of misunderstandings and problems is reduced, just as it is if/when I understand them better.

Of course there will always be some who just plain don't give a toss, and this will be evident in their repeated and blatant violations of others' clearly stated boundaries. There is still out there a prevailing mentality that "no" somehow means "yes" -- particularly when uttered by a woman -- and that in situations other than merely the sexual. So when one repeatedly states, "I don't like this, do not treat me that way," there will always be those boorish types who interpret this as some sort of sick "challenge" to go "open season."

As for doctrinal matters ... well ... if I want to say something "doctrinal" I will use Scripture!

[Guest]

Bravus,

This thread deserves more input.

the theme..ideal and real...

will be back to post some more later..

The thought that comes to mind is that some have thrown in the towel on expectations regarding ideals.

[Restin]

What if a young woman has had parents die when an infant, and then statutory raped as a 12 yr old, then is taken by an older man at 15 and influenced into marrying him, with no parents to prevent it. And then this woman is so messed up sexually that she becomes wild in her 20's, and then finds herself converted to being an SDA. She's never had a normal family situation or relationship in her life, and has no natural emotions about family to guide her. She has no concept of the preciousness/sancitity of marriage, has never felt love, nor been loved. I suppose she has a long way to go, when she starts reading EG White and all the ways a perfect woman ought to be. (Speaking of yours truly here who has no trouble understanding Nicodema and some of her raving and rantings here on the forum).

[Nan]

Restin, the first thing I would say is that God takes each of us where we are, and if we are willing, helps us become the person He wants us to be. This is a gradual process - and in one way or another we are all going through it. Ultimately we are changed as we get to know Jesus better - "by beholding we become changed" as John says. (1 John 3:2). Obviously it happens as the Holy Spirit works in us.

In your situation, be kind to yourself - do not judge yourself too harshly. You cannot suddenly acquire all the values and attitudes you missed out on during your growing up. Study and prayer in these matters are vital. But is it possible for you to observe Christian families in action? Not to follow everything you see, but to see and evaluate and try to acquire gradually those attitudes and values that make relationships work. Do you have any older Christian ladies, whose marriages and family life you admire, willing to talk to you about some of these issues ?

Just my suggestions - I have not been where you are at, and I cannot know if this would be worth pursuing.

I pray God will guide you through this - a life long journey.

[Nicodema]

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I suppose she has a long way to go, when she starts reading EG White and all the ways a perfect woman ought to be.

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Particularly while fighting the sense of total despair and discouragement which comes from realizing that precisely the type of good Christian man she would like to be yoked with is simultaneously being counseled, by this same pen, not to come within 10,000 yards of someone like herself -- when the only kind of man she would want to have this holy union in Christ with would be one, in fact, who would take the counsels of EG White seriously, because she's not interested in being "unequally yoked" with someone "lukewarm," worldly or uncommitted to Christ. (Not referring to any specific person desired necessarily, just the type of person in general.)

Yes, I know that one well -- or did, in college, when it mattered.

And no, that's not a "dig" against EGW or the "Standards" -- that's an open-eyed realization from someone right in the middle of being totally committed to the authority of the former and the upholding of the latter, being crushed simultaneously out of hope and into futility with the impossible, "no-win scenarios" by both.

[Sylvia]

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how do we hold up God's ideals in the real world, without hurting those we're here to heal?

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Wonderful question.

First, I can't seem to reach that ideal (assuming we are talking of the character of God) I find I have enough trouble letting God remove the mote from my own eye without my trying to remove the splinter from my neighbors eye

Second, I do not believe that Jesus respected those who rebelled against His ways.

Third, I believe He did love them

A huge difference between love and respect, although the two may easily and should ride together when in agreement.

Fourth, the only way I can even "try" to hold up HIS ideals will be IN Him. If I am in Him, He will give me the words (or silence), and the body language to reach out and be known as a friend to "publicans and harlots".

Now to hold up God's ideals in the real world without _angering_ anyone-----that's a horse of a different color!! Even Christ left angry people in His wake!

(Hi Nico

Sylvia

[Guest]

It is general audience verses specific audience...

The issue was regarding mariage...

once a person has sexual relations involuntarily or voluntarily they are removed from the specific audience by experience...

Think...it is like a bowler....if they get a spare or split in any frame..then they do not have a chance of bowling a 300 game...

Now..that doesn't mean it is impossible...I have seen someone bowl a perfect 300 game.

The message is for virgins...or for people who believe the essence of the stats who will share the message to virgins.

Of course there are people who were virgin when married whose relationships leave much to be desired and there are live together couples who have a very intimate loving relationship...

anecdotal exceptions are everywhere on anything...

Insurance companies set their rates on statistics...

People can always gamble with sin and be deceived into thinking ...it won't happen to them...yet....

soldiers know..generally speaking... that the odds are they will have a higher risk of being wounded or dying if they are on the front lines where bullets are flying around.

[Guest]

A question was just asked in our sabbath school class ..the person hearing it last sabbath in another class last week..

Did Adam and Eve have an advantage over us as far as temptation?

What I asked...was....

WHY is that question asked?

It didn't take long before members in the class mentioned..that it was to find an excuse for sinning..

I hear it all of the time...

Jesus had an advantage

As if ..I have an excuse for missing the ideal...

Then comes the BLAME SHIFT...

Remember the BLAME SHIFT of Adam and Eve?

There is NO excuse period.

1 Cor 10

"13": There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

BLAME SHIFTERS hate this verse

[cricket]

JimBob7,

I wish I were in your Sabbath School class when this was mentioned. I would have chimed in with, "Yep. Absolutely, Adam and Eve did have an advantage over us. They were as close as any of us could ever get to heaven without salvation, and yet they still needed their Savior. Look to your Savior, not to your sins. Look toward the One who will keep you from sinning lest you fall into temptation again."

[Bravus]

A couple of points and reactions:

JimBob, I like this notion of both ideality and reality because it helps remind us all that the ideals are worthwhile and worth keeping. We can fall too far into just coping with the reality of the world, and lose sight of what God has planned for us. By the same token, we can get obsessed with perfection and forget to be real... Remembering this dialogue helps clarify both sides...

Having said that, Restin, I thought about the point of the real and the ideal again (and this responds to Anthony's points too). The ideal of entering marriage as a virgin is not aimed at shaming or blaming those who have been hurt, but at challenging those who are *doing* the hurt. By holding it up as a standard, we are reminded of the wrong of abuse and exploitation, and abusers and exploiters are challenged to change. Certainly those who abused my Suzie, and robbed us of the sexual experience God planned for our marriage, were members of the church, and I would hope that the church would have challenged those people and stopped them.

Acknowledging the reality that people get hurt, and have their innocence stolen by others - or that others make bad choices - is not about shaming or blaming, but about redemption and restoration. I'm less convinced than Anthony that consequences can just be prayed away - in my experience, there are always consequences that have to be lived with. God, and others, can lighten that burden, but there's a *reason* why the ideal is held up: because simply, practically, it leads to a better life (in general terms, on the odds).

Ut's definitely not about making anyone feel like a second class citizen or inferior in any way, or that they're doomed or damned by their past. Again, that's what this thread is all about: how to avoid doing that.

[Guest]

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By the same token, we can get obsessed with perfection and forget to be real... Remembering this dialogue helps clarify both sides...

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Bravus,

I liked your post..

Wanted to comment on this part above..

I try to avoid the "perfect" word..unless I paste it on a post when using scripture which uses the word.

I try to stay with the overcoming sin usage because the "P" word is so loaded and varied in understanding and definiton..

Also....daily experience keeps almost all from forgetting to be real....

the reason why I try to emphasize or do a soapbox on the "ideal" is that in my experience in the church I find so much hostility to the ideal concept or see it cliched to death with some ambiguous lip service.

There are not just a few who will actually verbaliize the defeatist, non overcoming notion in church.

I find that contrary to much scripture and the will of God.

[Restin]

Some very good, thoughtful responses to this topic that has concerned me for years. Thank you, Nan, for your kind words. And it also helps to see a difference between the ideal as EG White presents it, and the reality of far from perfect life experience. And, Nicodema, you hit the nail on the head when you foresee that selecting the ideal SDA Christian man is the other side of the coin for us whose past history is disqualifying from the get go of life. The SDA man will choose his bride according to the guideposts of the church and EGWhite, and we(or I) stand the chance of a snowball in h*ll, I'm very sure!

[Bravus]

I'm not sure if I'm the 'ideal SDA Christian man' - but I'm not sure you want that guy anyway, he sounds kinda boring. But I was a virgin when I married Suzie, who had a history I've talked about here before. If the guy is too shallow to see past that stuff, he's probably too shallow to live and grow through it with you...

[Nicodema]

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There is NO excuse period.

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Nor is any needed or sought. Why is it so important to you to believe this shaming garbage? Isn't there enough sorrow and sickness and confusion in the world without trying to instill the toxic notion of an evil that cannot be directly detected, let alone purged, into other people???

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1 Cor 10"13": There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

BLAME SHIFTERS hate this verse

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"Blame shifters" (whatever that convenient little "I'm not going to face someone else's reality unless it tallies with mine" spin is supposed to mean) are not the only ones who "hate" that verse. You can add to the list those who once fervently LOVED that verse and RAN to it seeking the REFUGE it offered -- and when they did not find it, and innocently, seeking answers to the confusion of that, said as much, were accused of being "excuse seekers" and "blame shifters" who refused to "face responsibility for their own sins."

Unless you have first (1) unconditionally taken God at His word and therefore (2) have absolutely NO reason WHATSOEVER to think anything BUT that He WILL fulfill this verse to you in response to sincere prayer yet (3) have spent hours upon hours, day after day, for months on end, seeking that and not finding it, you cannot possibly know what the reality is of that category I refer to above -- a category to which I have had the unpleasant and unwanted distinction of belonging, a category of persons for whom unwanted neener-neener lying labels of "blameshifting" are like a stinging slap in the face over something we desperately desire could be otherwise and cannot do anything about. You might as well shove this verse in the face of a paraplegic in a wheelchair as some supposed proof that he should not be tempted to just sit around in his chair but rather should walk, and then telling him he is a "blame shifter" because he cannot make his muscles do so.

Knowingly or unwittingly, you have just once again begged the whole question with your shaming, condemnatory attitude. Just because you freely lash yourself with that whip to show off how "tuff" you think you are, does not mean you have the right to flagellate others with it ... especially not unsolicited.