The Ideal and the Real

[Nicodema]

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I'm less convinced than Anthony that consequences can just be prayed away - in my experience, there are always consequences that have to be lived with. God, and others, can lighten that burden, but there's a *reason* why the ideal is held up: because simply, practically, it leads to a better life (in general terms, on the odds).

Ut's definitely not about making anyone feel like a second class citizen or inferior in any way, or that they're doomed or damned by their past. Again, that's what this thread is all about: how to avoid doing that.

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Yes let's just make one thing perfectly clear here: any valid consequences for making choices outside the will of God must be naturally occurring to be valid. In other words, the consequences of errors suffered and wrong choices should NOT include "and self-righteous dolts will hound and harangue you with their calloused bull [censored] for the rest of your natural born days, turning you off from God and making you feel like a piece of filth whose presence is unclean and unwelcome and who has NO RIGHT to ask for a little consideration for your personal feelings and boundaries of respect because by golly, then you're getting in the way of the ALL IMPORTANT MISSION to browbeat people into living righteously."

[Nicodema]

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Nicodema, you hit the nail on the head when you foresee that selecting the ideal SDA Christian man is the other side of the coin for us whose past history is disqualifying from the get go of life. The SDA man will choose his bride according to the guideposts of the church and EGWhite, and we(or I) stand the chance of a snowball in h*ll, I'm very sure!

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Yeah, that's how I felt in college reading Messages to Young People and Counsels to -- something or other. The logic went like this:

(1) The kind of man I want to marry would be committed to Christ and therefore a loyal SDA true to the Message

(2) He would therefore take the counsels of the Spirit of Prophecy seriously and seek to order his life thereby

(3) The counsels of the Spirit of Prophecy warn good Christian young men to stay far, far away from young ladies of "questionable" character and "unsuitable" personality, in all the myriad ways in which I am of "questionable" character and "unsuitable" personality.

(4) Therefore there is no way I can ever hope to marry a true SDA Christian gentleman that I would want because he would never want someone like me (or if he did, he would think himself prevailed upon by the devil, and pray against it).

Like I said, after 2 marriages and being in my third LTR with a non-Christian, it no longer matters to me. I'm used to things being what they are. But it mattered in college, very much ... heart-wrenchingly so. I remember having a conversation with one of my fellow theology majors at school and thinking how kind and noble he was, and even though I did not have a crush on him or anything I was thinking privately, Please, oh please, just ask me out once; if someone like you would just ask me out once it would mean there is hope. My thinking wasn't too clear at that point; this was after I'd had my first psychotic break in 1983 so the "hope" I was looking for was way out of proportion with regard to where I was looking for it, if that makes sense. It wasn't just hope I might find a decent partner, but hope for everything that was being demolished and slipping away from my grasp.

I just basically felt like there was no place in the church for me. I didn't fit the standard cookie-cutter shape of what an SDA woman is supposed to be. Not by a longshot. Nor could I even envision ever doing so; it was just too different, too disparate from what I was, like night and day, like a different species. The complicated people-maze (just like the world) seemed to dominate everything; a plethora of social gatekeepers blocked the route between my enthusiasm and earnest desire to work for God and actual, practical outlets making use of my particular talents and skills. Not a good or healthy situation for me personally. If I'd been able to navigate the complicated people-maze I'd have done so in the "real world" and likely never have even thought to look for anything deeper in life. But I was born incapable of making sense of it, that is, incapable of making the same sense of it everyone else made.

Sorry, getting bogged down in my analytical mindset again. No one wants to hear this [censored], I'm sure.

[Bravus]

Nico - absolutely: natural consequences is what I was talking about. And the roll of our brothers and sisters in Christ is to *share* and *lighten* the load, not add to it. The story of the woman caught in adultery and Jesus' response is there for a reason.

[Bravus]

...and yeah, I do wonder who the woman was caught in adultery *with*, and why he wasn't there facing the stoning crew too...

[Guest]

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The story of the woman caught in adultery and Jesus' response is there for a reason.

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Yep..Many of the recorded bible experiences are there for that reason.

[Guest]

Hey Nico..

I am responding to the issue , theme of your post...

seperate personality from the issue/topic..

remember.others read this too..it is for their benefit as well

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Isn't there enough sorrow and sickness and confusion in the world without trying to instill the toxic notion of an evil that cannot be directly detected, let alone purged, into other people???

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Is this cafeteria time again? Pic n choose what to eat?

I remember you just recently posting about how the devil gets blamed for too much..I agree..

The first human blame shifters

Gen 3

[12] And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.

[13] And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.(THE DEVIL MADE ME DO IT!!)

Here is what detects evil

Heb 4;12

[12] For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Below are the people who set up pseudo ideals

2 Cor 10

[12] For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise.(FOOLS)

And the people who mention how others have an advantage...I have heard in church for decades..

as well as Satan's lie...

"ya know ..we can't keep the commandments of God"

If this was true ..then all would constantly be killing, raping , stealing, cussing....

Don't we see that to the degree that people do keep the commandments is based on how selfish..or unselfish people are

[Guest]

Matt 11

[28] Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

[Nicodema]

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Don't we see that to the degree that people do keep the commandments is based on how selfish..or unselfish people are

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No, absolutely not. "We" do not see that -- at least, I do not -- because first of all, that is not accurate in all cases, and second, I may not be qualified to properly judge in which cases it is or is not accurate.

Blanket generalizations and oversimplifications of this nature don't help anyone. They don't foster understanding or compassion. They only foster self-righteousness in one class and self-defeat in another. Neither of which are healthy, mentally or spiritually speaking.

For those who perceive themselves as "keeping the commandments", adopting your statement above as their point of view would merely aid and abet their own self-righteousness. It would excuse them from having to see themselves on the same level with any such people who were presumably "more selfish" based on less "performance". It would aid and abet self-deception about their own condition and it would throw up obstacles against them being of any real help to others in theirs.

For those who perceive themselves as "not measuring up," adopting your statement above as a point of view would merely increase the burdensome yoke they already cannot bear and add to the weight of fear and corrosive self-loathing present in their consciousness, eroding their confidence in their acceptance with Christ on the basis of HIS merits ALONE, which is the only TRUE foundation of a walk with Him. This in turn would lead to even further diminishment in "performance output" in a self-triggering, self-perpetrating negative "loop".

No, as a matter of fact, I don't see it that way at all. The degree to which people keep the commandments or not has nothing to do with how selfish or unselfish they are. Many factors are involved, including (but not limited to) upbringing, programming, social environment, personal functioning, cognitive abilities, emotional stability, mental health or illness, trauma or stress in their lives affecting their mental processing of things, strength or weakness of will, etc. That is why while man looks on the outward appearance (performance, how well we "keep the commandments"), the Lord looks on the heart.

[Guest]

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because first of all, that is not accurate in all cases

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Is it accurate in any cases, many cases, a majority of cases, most cases?

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Blanket generalizations and oversimplifications of this nature don't help anyone.

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No one, some one, a bunch of people, a majority of people most people?

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They don't foster understanding or compassion. They only foster self-righteousness in one class and self-defeat in another. Neither of which are healthy, mentally or spiritually speaking.

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Wow...what a wase of time then..

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For those who perceive themselves as "keeping the commandments", adopting your statement above as their point of view would merely aid and abet their own self-righteousness. It would excuse them from having to see themselves on the same level with any such people who were presumably "more selfish" based on less "performance". It would aid and abet self-deception about their own condition and it would throw up obstacles against them being of any real help to others in theirs.

For those who perceive themselves as "not measuring up," adopting your statement above as a point of view would merely increase the burdensome yoke they already cannot bear and add to the weight of fear and corrosive self-loathing present in their consciousness, eroding their confidence in their acceptance with Christ on the basis of HIS merits ALONE, which is the only TRUE foundation of a walk with Him. This in turn would lead to even further diminishment in "performance output" in a self-triggering, self-perpetrating negative "loop".

No, as a matter of fact, I don't see it that way at all. The degree to which people keep the commandments or not has nothing to do with how selfish or unselfish they are. Many factors are involved, including (but not limited to) upbringing, programming, social environment, personal functioning, cognitive abilities, emotional stability, mental health or illness, trauma or stress in their lives affecting their mental processing of things, strength or weakness of will, etc. That is why while man looks on the outward appearance (performance, how well we "keep the commandments"), the Lord looks on the heart.

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God..seems like you should have not made the 2nd set.

[Guest]

uhh..

Is the previous thinking the result of SDA NFDMTTS?

Matt 12

"36": But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

[Bravus]

So thanking God that only God is our judge is a result of NFDMTTS? In that case, maybe we need more!

[Nicodema]

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God..seems like you should have not made the 2nd set.

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I have no idea what you're talking about. You completely lost me. If you meant to inquire in which category I would place myself, I would have to answer that at different times in my life I have found myself in each. And they have both been their own little hell. The main difference being the first category you don't know you're in hell; you may even think you're in heaven; and the second category, you cannot help but know ... and cannot escape either.

[Nicodema]

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So thanking God that only God is our judge is a result of NFDMTTS? In that case, maybe we need more!

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Curious, isn't it? I wonder what the implications of that are. What could it mean when someone thinks that to be thankful that God alone is our judge -- something wonderful and worth rejoicing over -- is actually the result of NFDMTTS (non-fat dry-milk typical topical sermons) -- something deemed to be the bane of our church?

[Guest]

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God..seems like you should have not made the 2nd set.

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I have no idea what you're talking about. You completely lost me. If you meant to inquire in which category I would place myself, I would have to answer that at different times in my life I have found myself in each. And they have both been their own little hell. The main difference being the first category you don't know you're in hell; you may even think you're in heaven; and the second category, you cannot help but know ... and cannot escape either.

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meaning..after Moses broke the first set

[Guest]

God is the ultimate judge....however...everyone here makes judgements on many things and many people.

Some are fairly accurate judgements and some are unfair projections...some are knee jerk, simplistic and some are less so..

Look up judge and the forms in the concordance just for the New Testament..

Sure there are some holier than thou pharisee type of judgements..

Yet....what about the stuff I just posted about..cell phones and racket...

Am I unfair on this?

Should we just let 200 people let their phones go off anytime in church and if we try to have some peace and quiet...how dare we infringe on someone's freedom??

Look at what Jesus mentions in Matt 18

[16] But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

[17] And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

[18] Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

[19] Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.

[20] For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

That last verse is usually, out of context, used in small attended SS classes or prayer meetings..

yet the main idea is that some of the church are making a judgement call on someone..look at verse 18..

NFDMTTS promote this out of context simplicity and warped application.

[Guest]

Listen...I use to hang around the puffed up Pharisee group..I know about this..

and as far as poor judgement calls...my innocent brother spent 4 years in federal prison on a railroaded trial...you don't think I am sensitve to poor judgement calls and corruption of justice?? His case went to the supreme court and is now set for a congressional investigation.

[Nicodema]

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Yet....what about the stuff I just posted about..cell phones and racket...

Am I unfair on this?

Should we just let 200 people let their phones go off anytime in church and if we try to have some peace and quiet...how dare we infringe on someone's freedom??

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I personally don't think you're being unfair on this. I think THEY are being unfair, expecting others to have to endure that [censored] when they are there for worship, there to hear the Word, to sing praises to God, to testify of His goodness, to share a sacred moment with others of like minded faith.

However, I happen to agree with your view on this. Those who don't ... might see things differently.

One difference I do see? That there are those who are already hurting over the problems they experience and those who just plain don't give a toss. In my mind each situation requires a different approach.

When someone cannot hear you at all you have to speak a totally different language: sign language.

When someone is just rather hard of hearing you have to shout.

When someone is oversensitive to noise, you have to drop your voice and speak more gently than usual.

It's no different in the spiritual realm.

So often what we SEE going on has nothing to do with what's really going on for that person -- the unmet need underneath that is the REAL issue (while what we CAN see is just a "cover issue" so to speak). Like, the person who keeps hammering away at an argument because no one is acknowledging their feelings -- once you acknowledge their feelings and their right to them, it's like deflating a balloon; there's no more need on their part to push things in your face. Generally I think most people need to feel listened to, heard, taken seriously -- need to feel that their needs and feelings matter and that others are not just crowding them out but trying to work together to accomodate all as best possible. The cell phone thing is a great example. There are all sorts of possible solutions -- why not call a board meeting and invite heavy cell phone users to share their input on solutions THEY would be willing to follow to reduce the annoyance to those around them? There's more going on here than just a blanket assumption that X = absolute truth, therefore all that remains is to pile witnesses onto a steamroller and plow down the troops with it ... LOL ... (speaking as someone who tries that maneuver too many times myself ...)