Shrimp

[John317]

I'm just showing the reason that Acts 11 is not a good argument to use about what we can eat. You recognized that it isn't about food but yet you see it as related in some way. If we take it to mean that we can view food differently, it seems to me to be clearly taking the vision out of context.

[Bravus]

There were a number of 'live issues' at that time in the church, relating to Jewish law and the new covenant that included everyone. Peter and Paul almost metaphorically came to blows over circumcision, for example. I recognise that people were the main goal, but that God was making a broader point about a whole constellation of things. Otherwise there were much less roundabout ways of telling Peter 'I love Gentiles too'.

[phkrause]

Hey Red doesn't EGW say somewhere to go ahead and eat it. My wife found herself in that predicament a while back. A friend of hers from the hospital invited her over for lunch/dinner. She had never mentioned that she didn't eat meat let alone pork. So when she got to her friends guess what she served, yep good old pork, well not to offend the lady she went ahead and ate. But I do believe a little latter she mentioned to her friend that she doesn't eat pork. So I think sometimes it does get a little tricky. I've never run into that. I've accidently eaten unclean foods. Hope this helps a little redwood.

pk

[Bravus]

Hmm, actually, that might give me a way in to a sort of consensus here. Perhaps we can agree that as a health thing in a general way it's much better to avoid pork products and shellfish and so on. There are good health reasons. But if you're in a situation where you eat it accidentally, or where it's more important to maintain the relationship and respect someone's generosity by eating it, it's not actually a sin and it doesn't make you ceremonially unclean.

[Bravus]

That puts it in the same category as excessive use of refined carbs, fats and sugars, lack of exercise and sunlight and water, lack of sleep and a whole host of other health issues, rather than in some different category of 'if one tiny shrimp touches your lips you'd better seek forgiveness immediately or else!'

[phkrause]

Good posts bravus. There are many other things that are unhealthy for us. Obviously most like to condemn some for eating unclean food while we take in unhealthy food and since its not on the unclean list it must be OK. But I do like your post it makes good sense.

pk

[fccool]

Quote:

Is this the best argument anyone can make that "the Bible is actually fine with" our eating of shrimp?

Let me point out to you the Advenentist mentality concerning this subject, which Ironically brings up Milton's (Played by Al Pacino) final speech in Devil's Advocate. I though that it is representative of truth why Devil did rebel

Quote:

Milton (the Devil): Let me give you a little insight into God. God likes to watch. He's a prankster. Think about it. He gives man instincts. He gives you this extraordinary gift and then what does he do? I swear, for his own amusement, his own private cosmic gag reel, he sets the rules in opposition. It's the goof of all time. Look, but don't touch. Touch, but don't taste. Taste, don't swallow. Ha ha. And while you're jumpin' from one foot to the next, what is he doing? He's laughin' ...... he's a sadist, he's an absentee landlord. Worship that? Never!

I thought that whoever written the script had a good idea about Satan's reasoning and intentions. The sad thing is that many people who reject Christ subconsciously believe it. They bought that lie. That God is running around making rules for every thing that we like to do.

And what do we do? Instead on focusing on disproving the point, instead of focusing on message of Salvation first, instead of sharing the true nature and attributes of God... WE AMPLIFY THE MESSAGE OF SATAN... that God is some control freak. It's absolutely not true.

You have near to none evidence that Apostles would come into communities with health and food laws, and reform dress message. You won't find it in NT. Here's an example:

Quote:

Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, "You must be circumcised and keep the law”[f]—to whom we gave no such commandment— 25 it seemed good to us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, 26 men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who will also report the same things by word of mouth. 28 For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: 29 that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality.[g] If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well.

The context of the above is clear. The Jews were telling the new converts that they must be circumcised and keep the law. What law are they talking about? There's no Moses' law, Moses commanded Israelites to do everything that He dictated to Moses. So it was God's law. I'd like to point out that the some of the health laws are commanded (no blood, and no strangled flesh), and some of the commandments are commanded (No idols, and no adultery).

But the point is that God does not expect us to turn around in one day and all of a sudden keep everything that He commands. He wants us to do it because we want to, not because He commands us. Notice.... "no greater burden than these necessary things". Why? Were they given people green light to sin? I don't think so, but they understood the "unsettling your souls" part.

God does not desire obedience for the sake of obedience. If people did not fully understand why it is that God wants to do certain things, doing them out of duty is as empty as sacrifices that Israelites did out of duty.

What we teach in our churches today is that we must absolutely abstain from everything at all times if we want to be right with God... so in effect we are engaging in a guilt based and disgusting approach....

- pigs are dirty, and they eat baby pigs

- shrimp eat drowned humans

- rabbits eat their own excrement

- lightly fermented drinks are fermented and unclean

- why would you want to eat the above?

If that does not work we turn to the guilt tactics of ... "it's sin to disobey, and you will pay a terrible health price"

We don't really care about getting people to love God and then obey (although we claim that we do), and rather ending up with disheartened people who obeying God and hate every minute of it... but they consider the suffering to be the "atonement price" that they pay to win God's favor.

This is not Biblical message... obedience for the sake of obedience. Biblical message is obedience for the sake of love. Yet we are not patient enough with people to give them room for a change. We expect the immediate changes, and if we don't see these... we talk behind their backs, questioning their "Adventism beliefs". God allows for certain things knowing people's hearts. He allowed monogamy even for David... who was after His own heart. He did not clearly put His foot down.

Yet we insist that people who come to Christ are to cease everything and then just convert cold turkey. I don't think that we realize that it takes years for some.

God's primary message to us is not the message of healthy living. Of course we should strive to be healthy. I doubt anyone wants to be unhealthy, but our physical health does not depend on following health laws either. There are other avoidable (and unavoidable) factors that harm our bodies that we are unwilling to give up. Such could be our jobs, environment that we live in, lack of proper nutrition and exercise, and genetically passed on diseases.

Above all, I think it's important to remember that on long enough timeline... survival rate of everyone drops to 0. No matter how well you eat, how much you work out... you will die. You can't postpone death no matter what you do. So, the message of salvation is not as much for this life, but for the next one to come. Yes, we are more effective as healthy people... but if you are spending too much time on taking care of yourself... it's likewise a selfish motive. That's not our mission here.

The bottom line John, "not so fast" comment above is probably one of the silly comments I've seen. You know how much respect I have for you, and I mean no disrespect by saying this. Salvation matters are based on series of personal choices. Many of these result from understanding God's will. If person does not understand it yet, I think it's important to give them room to do so. A couple more plates of shrimp won't kill them if they've been eating these their entire lives.

And just for reference... the healthiest people on this planet... Japanese... eat tons of shellfish enjoying the longest lifespans on the planet right now. Was God wrong there? Of course not! The message of "clean" and "unclean" was not for "healthy" and "unhealthy". Eating any kind of meat is unhealthy, and was not the original plan. The message has spiritual applications and is a shadow of things to come.

[Dr. Shane]

I try to live by Sola Scriptura and not by what any church, including the Adventist church teaches about a given subject. There are a handful of areas where I disagree with the majority view of the Adventist church. I don't believe wearing jewelry is a sin. I don't believe Christian rock is wrong. I favor a contemporary church service. I do not find dancing an objectionable activity (although bars and night clubs are objectionable places). I believe we need to talk more openly about sexual issues with our youth.

However on the issue of clean and unclean meats I believe the Bible is abundantly clear. In order to believe that unclean meats are acceptable one has to read into Scripture things that are just not there. God never intended man to eat meat in the first place. Even after the Fall, man was not immediately given permission to eat meat. When God led the Israelites out of Egypt He fed them with manna until, unsatisfied with what God provided, they cried for the fleshpots of Egypt. Daniel and the three Hebrew worthies requested a vegetarian diet when refusing to eat of the king's table in Babylon. The clean meats that the Bible does permit us to eat are to be eaten only without the fat or blood. God does not endorse these meats any more than He endorses divorce. God allows meat eating because of our lust for flesh food but His ideal for us is a vegetarian diet.

[fccool]

Shane, although I do agree, I think my point evades you. God cares about our spiritual heath more than He does our physical, and He is willing to overlook certain things in light of us getting to know Him better. This is fairly clear from both OT and NT. If you read Hosea, Isaiah and Jeremiah... God forgives His people and constantly reconciliation in spite of what they do. He does not make it OK, but we don't come back to God by means of healthy diet. We come back to Him realizing that He is the Creator who is willing to forgive our shortcomings.

Yet, if people have certain habits that they struggle with, we end up on a criticizing side instead portraying God-like character of understanding, and giving them some space to know God better. That attitude should be practiced towards unsaved and saved alike.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Christ did not criticize the sinners for doing things that they did... we don't see such attitude. He taught more important spiritual matters such as love and forgiveness. The people he criticized were the people who were going around pointing fingers telling others what's lawful and not lawful to do. Vegetarianism is a personal decision, likewise eating clean and unclean meats is a personal decision, likewise salvation is a personal decision. No need to pressure people into submission of denominational standards. If it is clear Biblically, then they should get it if you set proper example.

But instead I see a pharasaical "we are the best" practiced. Adventists are not the healthiest people, Adventists are not more favored in the eyes of God because we do certain things "better" than other. We have plenty of shortcomings that need improvement. Yet we get hang up on those relatively insignificant things that God himself overlooks for sake of other people turning to Him. Are we better than God?

[Dr. Shane]

I guess it is like me picking up my dirty socks. My wife doesn't love me because I pick up my dirty socks. But make no doubt about it, she wants me to pick up my dirty socks. When we have a falling out, picking up my dirty socks isn't going to patch things up - but I still need to do it. My wife's love for me is not based on my ability to pick up my dirty socks but it is clearly her will for me that I do so.

[fccool]

Of course analogy kind of fails considering that, based on the analogy, you will eventually die if you wife leaves you. So, picking up your dirty socks is kind of meaningless in light of that, especially if you don't want to do it in the fist place.

[Liz]

Fccool, I think you are dead on. I have really enjoyed reading this thread.

[Dr. Shane]

Marriage is the analogy that the Bible uses to teach us about our relationship with God. There are many parallels between the relationship of husband and wife and between God and the believer. The love relationship between a man and woman is not based on works but works certainly play a role in it. The same is true regarding the believer's relationship with God.

[Woody]

Wow! I go away and when I come back ... I have to wonder ... WHAT DID I START?

Good discussions though.

What I take from it is that we should not make 'what we eat' or 'what music we listen to' or whether we wear 'jewelry' ... our religion.

[Gail]

Red, I liked Liz's suggestion the best!

Quote:

Yet, if people have certain habits that they struggle with, we end up on a criticizing side instead portraying God-like character of understanding, and giving them some space to know God better. That attitude should be practiced towards unsaved and saved alike.

I just had a struggle with this the night before last. I have a friend who drops in every so often. She is one of those conservative church members that drive me crazy.

The reason? Because every single time she visits, she finds something to criticize. This time it was the lighting in my office and the safety of microwaves. But in the past it has been the way the Voice of Prophecy singers sway to the music, the gelatin in medication capsules, the music in Greek restaurants, how the City is handling a church matter, how people eat, etc etc etc. There is ALWAYS something negative to focus on, it seems, with her.

To tell you the truth, even though I've known her for many years I feel like hiding every time I see her coming. I don't feel that my Christian experience is helped but rather hindered by all the negative.

PLUS- I feel like she is ready to catch me in a wrongdoing, which I will probably inevitably make come to pass sooner or later.

It makes me feel like I cannot be trusted to make my own decisions.

I'm thankful that God does not treat me that way... He's more patient, like a Potter.

[John317]

But if you're in a situation where you eat it accidentally, or where it's more important to maintain the relationship and respect someone's generosity by eating it, it's not actually a sin and it doesn't make you ceremonially unclean.

Eating it accidently is a totally different question, of course.

I'm not aware of any evidence in the Bible or in Ellen White's writings that we become ceremonially unclean from eating unclean meat, whether Pork or shrimp.

The point about someone's generosity, that doesn't seem to me to be a good reason to do something against your principles if they are based on what the Bible teaches.

[Woody]

Red, I liked Liz's suggestion the best!

Quote:

Yet, if people have certain habits that they struggle with, we end up on a criticizing side instead portraying God-like character of understanding, and giving them some space to know God better. That attitude should be practiced towards unsaved and saved alike.

I just had a struggle with this the night before last. I have a friend who drops in every so often. She is one of those conservative church members that drive me crazy.

The reason? Because every single time she visits, she finds something to criticize. This time it was the lighting in my office and the safety of microwaves. But in the past it has been the way the Voice of Prophecy singers sway to the music, the gelatin in medication capsules, the music in Greek restaurants, how the City is handling a church matter, how people eat, etc etc etc. There is ALWAYS something negative to focus on, it seems, with her.

To tell you the truth, even though I've known her for many years I feel like hiding every time I see her coming. I don't feel that my Christian experience is helped but rather hindered by all the negative.

PLUS- I feel like she is ready to catch me in a wrongdoing, which I will probably inevitably make come to pass sooner or later.

It makes me feel like I cannot be trusted to make my own decisions.

I'm thankful that God does not treat me that way... He's more patient, like a Potter.

Great Post Gail. You have hit a very important issue here. Some make all the do's and don'ts ... their religion. And they spread this disease to the rest of us.

[Gail]

Here's a rule to consider, if we are to consider rules:

How about the Golden one?

How would we feel if we were the neighbour trying to help out? If it were me, the fact that I did alert them beforehand to my diet would make a difference.

I have had people try to trick me before, just to see what I would do. Weird, I wouldn't do that to someone, but strangely enough I HAVE had it done to me.

But if I was a neighbour who was sincerely trying to help, I wonder how the reception of the food would impact my view of the neighbour and his/her religion.

Just another thought.

[Gail]

I like the good thoughts being brought out here on BOTH sides of the topic!

[Dr. Shane]

Quote:

I feel like she is ready to catch me in a wrongdoing, which I will probably inevitably make come to pass sooner or later.

I would suggest not eating shrimp around her.

[Woody]

Here's a rule to consider, if we are to consider rules:

How about the Golden one?

How would we feel if we were the neighbour trying to help out? If it were me, the fact that I did alert them beforehand to my diet would make a difference.

I have had people try to trick me before, just to see what I would do. Weird, I wouldn't do that to someone, but strangely enough I HAVE had it done to me.

But if I was a neighbour who was sincerely trying to help, I wonder how the reception of the food would impact my view of the neighbour and his/her religion.

Just another thought.

Gail. I am very much appreciating all the comments on this thread also. And I am very much appreciating the things you have said. I think you make a good point that we need to consider the response of those who sincerely give things to us. What will they think of our religion if we are rude? But then ... what will they think of us if we are not sincere to our beliefs? Are these the points that you are bringing out? I was just not sure of the conclusion you were making. Could you further explain and expound on what you have said? What was your conclusion in this last post of yours?

[John317]

... doesn't EGW say somewhere to go ahead and eat it.

I don't believe there's any evidence that Ellen White says to go ahead and eat pork if someone offers it to you. I've never seen such a statement before, and if anyone knows of one, it would be good to see.

The health message is about being healthy. Therefore, if pork was the only food available to eat in order to stay healthy or alive, then naturally we should eat it.

The same with any meat at any time if it's necessary to maintain life & health.

In the case of pork (or other unclean meats), why not simply tell people you don't like it?

Lots of non-SDA meat-eaters won't eat pork, and it has nothing to do with the Bible. It has to do with their not liking it, and they don't eat it just because someone gives it to them.

I don't like menudo, a favorite of my relatives. I simply don't like the taste. There's nothing wrong with telling people politely that you don't like something.

Quote:

ELLEN WHITE KEPT IT NO SECRET THAT UNDER DIFFICULT CIRCUMSTANCES, AS WHEN SHE TRAVELED OR WHEN SHE WAS ENTERTAINED IN HER TRAVELS, SHE ATE SOME MEAT. THE BOOK, COUNSELS ON DIET AND FOODS, PUBLISHED IN 1938, CARRIES HER ACCOUNT OF HER RELATION TO THE USE OF MEAT AFTER THE HEALTH REFORM VISION WAS GIVEN TO HER AS FOLLOWS: "I at once cut meat out of my bill of fare. After that I was at times placed where I was compelled to eat a little meat." THIS IS IN HARMONY WITH HER EARLIER PUBLISHED STATEMENT WHICH APPEARED IN 1890 IN THE BOOK, CHRISTIAN TEMPERANCE AND BIBLE HYGIENE, READING, "When I could not obtain the food I needed, I have sometimes eaten a little meat; but I am becoming more and more afraid of it." Manuscript Release No. 852: The Development of Adventist Thinking on Clean and Unclean Meats (1981), page 2, paragraph 4

[Gail]

Quote:

Gail. I am very much appreciating all the comments on this thread also. And I am very much appreciating the things you have said. I think you make a good point that we need to consider the response of those who sincerely give things to us. What will they think of our religion if we are rude? But then ... what will they think of us if we are not sincere to our beliefs? Are these the points that you are bringing out? I was just not sure of the conclusion you were making. Could you further explain and expound on what you have said? What was your conclusion in this last post of yours?

Red, I really don't have any conclusion. For me the issue of meat-eating is not salvational. I do what I can with what I have and how I have been impressed by the Lord.

Your points are all very valid and I think there is much good food for thought!

I have been in a position where I've been a visitor and abstained, and some where I just don't ask "What's in there?"

[Gail]

John317, thank you for that quote. I think many of us would rest assured knowing that EGW, who offered counsel against meat-eating, found herself in positions where she just "put up and shut up".

It doesn't detract from the healthy stance she took. I wish that more of our believers could be as merciful with themselves and others.

[John317]

.... the point is that God does not expect us to turn around in one day and all of a sudden keep everything that He commands.

God expects us to obey the commandments that we are aware of. If we know something is wrong to do, then He expects us not to do it. If we know that we should do something, then He expects us to do that, too.

Look at Exodus 16: 28, when the Lord asked, "How long do you refuse to keep My commandments and My laws?"

Quote:

He wants us to do it because we want to, not because He commands us...

Yes, sometimes we must obey God simply on the basis of His command.

Case in point:

When God told Adam not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Did God ask Adam if he wanted to eat or not?

The test was to see if Adam would obey God's naked command.

What happened when Adam disobeyed? It was the beginning of all the suffering and death that we see in the world today.

It disproves the notion that God always wants us to obey His commands only if we want to.

Quote:

God does not desire obedience for the sake of obedience. If people did not fully understand why it is that God wants to do certain things, doing them out of duty is as empty as sacrifices that Israelites did out of duty.

There are many examples in the Bible of God's commanding people to do things that they did not understand. I've already mentioned the prohibition against eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the middle of the garden. That is a clear example of God's wanting obedience for the sake of obedience. It's an example of God's wanting to test humans whether they would obey simply on the basis of trust in God's wisdom and authority.

God's call of Abraham to leave Haran and His command of Abraham to kill Isaac are other examples. There are hundreds of such examples.

Yes, sometimes we are asked to obey God simply because of God's commandment.

Can you give me a logical reason why God commands us to keep the Sabbath on Saturday, the seventh day of the week? Does logic lead us to keep the Sabbath on the Seventh-day and not on the first or sixth or fifth?

Of course God wants us to understand what we are doing and why, but that is not always the case. He doesn't tell us to wait until we agree with him and understand all the reasons for His command before we obey.

Is it obedience if I say that I won't obey until I agree with the reason for doing something that God commands?

When we do that, we are obeying our own will and our own minds, not God's commandment.

Here's the big question--

What happens when I don't agree with God-- will I still obey Him, or will I put my will above God's will?