Adventist Stereotypes

[guibox]

I came across this site categorizing the differing beliefs in the SDA church. What do you think about it?

http://ntri.wordpress.com/2008/07/19/adventist-stereotypes/

It classifies the 'traditional' into 3 separate groups but I would disagree with that. I think there are at least 3 groups too many. I also would disagree with some of the classification of it's adherents. For example, the author puts the Standish brothers in the 3rd and most extreme conservative group. I would not have placed them there.

What do you all think?

Where do you fall?

Myself I fall somewhere in between the 'progressive' and 'evangelical' camp according to this website.

[Woody]

Quote:

Mark Finley, Dwight Nelson, Keavin Hayden, Marvin Moore, Roy Adams, Ed Christian, Morris Venden, Jack Sequeira (Vineyard Ministries), Shawn Boonstra (It Is Written), Steven Mosley, Steve Wohlberg, Lonnie Melashenko (Voice Of Prophecy), George Vandeman (Voice Of Prophecy)

I hardly consider all of these folks in the same camp. I really had to laugh. Actually ... I disagreed with the placement of most of the names.

[John317]

I don't agree with the way many of these people have been categorized.

(I was born and raised and have lived most of my life in the Loma Linda area. I attend all of the larger and some of the smaller local churches in the Loma Linda area. I don't recognize the description in the Adventist Stereotypes of what SDAs are supposed to be like here. I consider myself Conservative-Traditional, but I do not agree with many of the ways this group [and some of the others] are described. I enjoy reading Spectrum and attending their functions and lecture series. I find it impossible to believe that Steve Daily is representative of typical SDAs in this area.)

Here are the people whose writings I enjoy and mostly agree with:

(Some of them I know personally and have had them as teachers.)

1) Progressive Adventists:

Richard Rice, Fritz Guy.

2) MORAL INFLUENCE/LARGER VIEW ADVENTISTS:

Key Figures: Graham Maxwell (Pine Knoll), Dan Smith, Ty Gibson (Light Bearers).

3) EVANGELICAL ADVENTISTS:

George Knight, Graeme Bradford, Hans LaRondelle, H.M.S. Richards Sr. (Voice Of Prophecy), Edward Heppenstall

4) MODERATE ADVENTISTS:

Mark Finley, Dwight Nelson, Marvin Moore, Roy Adams, Morris Venden, Shawn Boonstra (It Is Written), Steve Wohlberg, Lonnie Melashenko (Voice Of Prophecy), George Vandeman (Voice Of Prophecy)

5) CONSERVATIVE/TRADITIONAL ADVENTISTS:

William Johnsson, Cifford Goldstein, Doug Batchelor (Amazing Facts), Sam Bacchiocchi (Biblical Perspectives), Sam Koranteng Pipim, Herbert Douglass, Ed Reid, Kenneth Cox, Richard O’Ffill (Revival Sermons), Danny Shelton (3 ABN) , Bill Tucker (The Quiet Hour), Robert Weiland and Donald Short (The 1888 Message Committee), C.D. Brooks

6) ULTRA-CONSERVATIVE/TRADITIONAL ADVENTISTS:

M.L. Andreason, Kevin Paulson, Larry Kirkpatrick, Joe Crews, Vance farrell, Dennis Priebe.

7) EXTREMIST ULTRA-CONSERVATIVE TRADITIONAL Our Firm Foundation/Hope International (Ralph Larson), Hartland Institute (Colin and Russell Standish).

[Bravus]

Just a side comment: I may have missed it, but I didn't see a single woman in the list. Are there really *no* female Adventist thought leaders? Hard to see how we can have a balanced view if that's the case...

[guibox]

Quote:

Mark Finley, Dwight Nelson, Keavin Hayden, Marvin Moore, Roy Adams, Ed Christian, Morris Venden, Jack Sequeira (Vineyard Ministries), Shawn Boonstra (It Is Written), Steven Mosley, Steve Wohlberg, Lonnie Melashenko (Voice Of Prophecy), George Vandeman (Voice Of Prophecy)

I hardly consider all of these folks in the same camp. I really had to laugh. Actually ... I disagreed with the placement of most of the names.

Yes, as did I. Shawn Boonstra was my pastor for a year and a great guy. He is down to earth but I would probably put his views along the lines of Doug Bachelor (you'd have to be to be the speaker for IIW. This site put Bachelor in the 'traditional camp'. I would have put Sam-Pippin in with the ultra conservatives. I was also under the impression that Roy Adams was more progressive.

Frankly I don't see much of a difference between 'progressive' and 'evangelical'. I would say that there are progressives that are more evangelical in methodology but I wouldn't have separate categories. I would have split the 'traditional' camp into two, not three. I might have changed the 'ultra conservative' to 'quackventist'. :smilewink:

After spending time on Revival Sermons and having the chance to personally interact with Pastor Richard O'ffill, I would place him place him more in the 'moderate'camp. At the least, I wouldn't have placed him with some of the other people that were placed there. Some of the people on his website forum are fanatics but he is down to earth, reasonable, level headed and even evangelical in some ways. He understands the relation of grace to law and the proper place of standards. He understands righteouness by faith much more closer to the evangelical camp then to some of the quacks that frequent his forum.

He has called to task some of those people who place the law of strict importance over everything else, those who make food and dress issues an issue of fellowship and salvation and even banned one ultra conservative that was constantly preaching against the Trinity doctrine. He even took flak from some of the members because he admits to reading other Christian authors like Philip Yancey, and for believing that eating meat isn't a sin!

He is a very nice man, even though I disagree with some of his conservative stance.

[Kountzer]

There's a lot of misinformation about the church out there that is spread by groups of people who do not like this church, or church movement.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Just a side comment: I may have missed it, but I didn't see a single woman in the list. Are there really *no* female Adventist thought leaders? Hard to see how we can have a balanced view if that's the case...

That *is* an interesting point. But I can't think of any SDA woman who is really in the spotlight. They mostly work behind the scenes, which, while it is needed, is too bad because nobody usually listens to what they have to say.

As a *thought model* I nominate Aldona. Get her ideas.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Bravus

Just a side comment: I may have missed it, but I didn't see a single woman in the list. Are there really *no* female Adventist thought leaders? Hard to see how we can have a balanced view if that's the case...

That *is* an interesting point. But I can't think of any SDA woman who is really in the spotlight. They mostly work behind the scenes, which, while it is needed, is too bad because nobody usually listens to what they have to say.

As a *thought model* I nominate Aldona. Get her ideas.

There are some very good female theological professors at Andrews that are women. Jo Ann Davidson is a brilliant scholar. She is the one that comes to my mind ... but I will check with Blanche for more.

However ... I would vote for Aldona also.

Later .... Blanche says to add Connie Gane .

But, also Ellen White Ha ha.

[John317]

Just a side comment: I may have missed it, but I didn't see a single woman in the list. Are there really *no* female Adventist thought leaders? Hard to see how we can have a balanced view if that's the case...

There are women thought-leaders in the church, but there were none on that list, and I can't think of any women in the church, besides Ellen White, -- oh and an aunt of mine and my mother, and her mother-- who have had a great influence on my thinking and doctrinal views.

Have you heard of Madelynn Haldeman?

---- Dr. Madelynn L. Haldeman-- Professor of New Testament, La Sierra University. Madelynn was one of the women ordained at the La Sierra Church in the Fall of 1995. She is a specialist in the Gospel of Matthew. I would identify her as very progressive. In 1970 she worked on the editorial staff of Spectrum. Back in the late 1970s and early 80s, she taught NT Greek at La Sierra University. I am not sure if she still does.

I think the subject of women's influence is interesting because while I can't think of any women theologians who influenced me, the single greatest influence on me and on my Christian beliefs and commitment to Christ was my mother.

That's interesting because Ellen White talks about that very thing. Mothers often have the greatest influence on the world, not through sitting on boards and teaching in great schools, but through influencing their children in the home.

[Woody]

Ellen White sure didn't sit at "home influencing her children". She was very active and progressive in her time.

[Woody]

I found this very interesting thanks for posting it. I find it very helpful and healthy to classify our differences.

Personally I find myself in many of the different classifications.

[John317]

Later .... Blanche says to add Connie Gane .

What category does Blanche put her in, if any?

Connie must be related to one of my teachers at PUC, Erwin R. Gane, and to his son, Roy Gane.

Later: I just did a search and found out she is married to Roy.

[John317]

Ellen White sure didn't sit at "home influencing her children". She was very active and progressive in her time.

Yes, God gave her visions, calling her personally to be His prophet. She wouldn't have done that on her own.

My mother just didn't sit at home either. She was a teacher for 40 years.

But read what Ellen White says about women's influences. She says they influence the whole world through their children. Mother's have the greatest influence on society. God intended it to be that way.

Chapter Title: Influence of the Mother

Quote:

The World's Debt to Mothers.--The day of God will reveal how much the world owes to godly mothers for men who have been unflinching advocates of truth and reform--men who have been bold to do and dare, who have stood unshaken amid trials and temptations; men who chose the high and holy interests of truth and the glory of God before worldly honor or life itself.The Adventist Home (1952), page 243, paragraph 1

[Bravus]

Don't you guys think that the existence of this list means that Adventism is too consumed with in-fighting to be really effective in spreading the gospel? Every minute spent working and studying to prove other Adventists wrong is a minute stolen from working to seek and save the lost.

[John317]

What women in the church today would you say are great "thought leaders"?

[Liz]

I know you guys didn't mean it this way, but it still got my red-headed temper raised a notch or two.

I don't know any mother who just "sits at home". That is very demeaning to the work that we do.

O.k.-breath in breath out and move on.

[Woody]

[John317]

I don't believe you can draw any such conclusions from that list about Adventism as a whole or from what goes on in Adventist forums like this one. This is like a tempest in a small tea pot. I don't think it's very representative at all of how SDAs as a church think or believe.

[Woody]

I am not really sure I understand what you are saying John ... but I find it very realistic. I see ALL of those catagories in our church. And all of those beliefs are present in our church. To what degree ... I don't know. And I don't agree with the personal classifications . But, I found it very helpful to look at.

[John317]

I don't know any mother who just "sits at home". That is very demeaning to the work that we do.

Redwood is the only one who mentioned mothers who "just sit at home." I never said or implied that women should not do important things outside the home. As I said, my mother was a teacher for 40 years, besides being a great mother.

[John317]

I am not really sure I understand what you are saying John ...

I was replying to Bravus' statement: " this list means that Adventism is too consumed with in-fighting to be really effective in spreading the gospel"

I don't think we can draw that conclusion from the list. Like you and others on the thread, I don't agree with the way the categories are described nor with the individuals listed as they are.

[Liz]

Originally Posted By: Liz

I don't know any mother who just "sits at home". That is very demeaning to the work that we do.

Redwood is the only one who mentioned mothers who "just sit at home." I never said or implied that women should not do important things outside the home. As I said, my mother was a teacher for 40 years, besides being a great mother.

I think we are still miscommunicating here. I don't do "important things outside the home"--my "important things" are inside the home--but I don't "just sit at home". Women who raise their children and are keepers of the home have a very demanding job. Those who add a "just" to her title, or even suggests that she should do "something" else "outside" the home demeans what she is doing.

But like I said, I know you guys probably didn't mean it the way it came out. It just struck a chord with me, is all.

I don't mean to hijack this thread.

So in the spirit of getting it back on topic:

I don't like labels, it divides people, instead of bringing people together for the common good.

[Woody]

Quote:

I don't like labels, it divides people, instead of bringing people together for the common good.

I hate to disagree with a fine woman who is not 'sitting at home' with her kids ... but who is working hard for her family ... HOWEVER:

I DO like labels and dividing people by what they believe. I find that if we don't label our differences ... we build them up in our minds to be greater than they are in reality. That is what we do. So, coming together requires that we define and label our differences clearly.

This is why I was very pleased with the infantile start. No, it is not perfect. But I liked the attempt.

[Bravus]

But John, it really doesn't matter whether people are assigned to the right camp in this list. I wasn't talking about that, I was talking about the existence of such a category system within Adventism at all. Even if it's too complex and there are two or four camps instead of six or whatever... the distinctions are very fine ones that require a lot of work to create and maintain. I'm just saying that I think a lot of these divisions would disappear if our eye was strongly focused on winning unbelievers... which is meant to be our main goal. It's like a company where every board meeting is focused on the minutiae of the company rules and the mission statement, while the company itself is foundering, profits are falling (except in some overseas divisions) and no-one has their attention on maximising profits.

[John317]

I don't do "important things outside the home"--my "important things" are inside the home--but I don't "just sit at home". Women who raise their children and are keepers of the home have a very demanding job. Those who add a "just" to her title, or even suggests that she should do "something" else "outside" the home demeans what she is doing.

But like I said, I know you guys probably didn't mean it the way it came out. It just struck a chord with me, is all.

I can sure understand what you are saying. The women often-- no, usually-- have much harder work than men, and they get less pay and, in the case of working in the home, no pay, except the love of their children and husband.