Should we allow anything theatrical in church?

[Woody]

Consider this from Ellen White:

Quote:

" I have a message for those in charge of our work. Do not encourage the men who are to engage in this work to think that they must proclaim the solemn, sacred message in a theatrical style. Not one jot or tittle of anything theatrical is to be brought into our work. God's cause is to have a sacred, heavenly mold. Let everything connected with the giving of the message for this time bear the divine impress. Let noth-ing of a theatrical nature be permitted, for this would spoil the sacredness of the work…

Men who thought they had a wonderful work to do sought to adopt a strange deportment and manifested oddities in bodily exercise. The light given me was, "Give this no sanc-tion." These performances, which savored of the theatrical, were to have no place in the proclamation of the solemn messages entrusted to us. " 19MR, p.125.

[Jeannieb43]

I know that's an Ellen White quote, but I don't recognize the reference: MR. What is it? Messages to --?

And when was it written?

Anyway, I would not have wanted to be a part of a theatrical production inside any church in the 1800s. That was not the approved method of worship in those days.

And even back in the 1970s when a group of students from PUC presented John Nine as a "play" here in our church in Southern California [though it was done without costumes, without props or stage sets] it felt a little strange to me. But the result was: I LISTENED. The message became so much CLEARER to me, because the blind man had himself spoken! I couldn't believe any of it was inappropriate.

And now we have The Red Books as a performance presentation in our churches. It reveals Ellen White herself even better than was possible through the written word only.

I believe God intends that we use the brains we've been given, to understand things in the setting in which they're presented.

[John317]

I know that's an Ellen White quote, but I don't recognize the reference: MR. What is it? Messages to --?

And when was it written?

Manuscript Releases, Vol 19 (It probably would have been written sometime in the early 1900s)

[Neil D]

Consider this from Ellen White:

Quote:

" I have a message for those in charge of our work. Do not encourage the men who are to engage in this work to think that they must proclaim the solemn, sacred message in a theatrical style. Not one jot or tittle of anything theatrical is to be brought into our work. God's cause is to have a sacred, heavenly mold. Let everything connected with the giving of the message for this time bear the divine impress. Let noth-ing of a theatrical nature be permitted, for this would spoil the sacredness of the work…

Men who thought they had a wonderful work to do sought to adopt a strange deportment and manifested oddities in bodily exercise. The light given me was, "Give this no sanc-tion." These performances, which savored of the theatrical, were to have no place in the proclamation of the solemn messages entrusted to us. " 19MR, p.125.

Are we talking about theater or theatrics? There is a difference....Ever hear of "drama queens"? Are they people who are given to exagerated behavior or are they persons of the theater? Is "theatrics" directly related to theater or is it OF the theater? I can use my mouse to direct my cursor, but that doesn't mean that I am using a small mammal to produce swear words.....

Is EGW talking about drama queens or is she talking about plays? Is she talking about those who would used techniques associated with production plays or is she refering to emotional behavior to manipulate a response?

Personally, I suspect that she is talking about drama queens...or people who manipulate others thru thier drama/theatrics/unreasonable behavior..and I have know a few pasters who are drama queens...male though they bee....

[Gail]

I am envisioning the likes of PT Barnum...

I've seen some sermons delivered in a theatrical style, the delivery a drama in itself, and I've thought, Oh, brother.

In that case, then I'd agree with Jeannie that an actual play might be more effective.

But for myself, I find that Scripture burns in my heart and not much worldly can compare to that (see Beryl's notes in the Christs Object Lessons forum).

But I can admit that there have been some productions I've seen that I've found stimulating, even though that is not my preferred method of listening or learning. But I can see how people who enjoy stories and story-telling would like drama.

[phkrause]

I take this statement as I did the bicycle deal. I think that these theaters she mentions were really houses of ill repute in her day.

pk

[Woody]

I am envisioning the likes of PT Barnum...

I've seen some sermons delivered in a theatrical style, the delivery a drama in itself, and I've thought, Oh, brother.

In that case, then I'd agree with Jeannie that an actual play might be more effective.

But for myself, I find that Scripture burns in my heart and not much worldly can compare to that (see Beryl's notes in the Christs Object Lessons forum).

But I can admit that there have been some productions I've seen that I've found stimulating, even though that is not my preferred method of listening or learning. But I can see how people who enjoy stories and story-telling would like drama.

Thank you Gail. I think you have presented a good thought on this topic. I had not thought of that possibility. But it is so true.

[John317]

I am envisioning the likes of PT Barnum...

I've seen some sermons delivered in a theatrical style, the delivery a drama in itself, and I've thought, Oh, brother.

I agree with this. I think she had in mind preachers who put on "shows" in their preaching and everyone knows it's all theater and entertainment.

Some may disagree with me but I don't think she is condemning a skit or play when done reverently and in good taste. They can be very effective in communicating the gospel and the truths of the Bible.

[Gail]

After all, if I might say so, Revelation is written in the style of... a play. There is scene after scene.

[Woody]

After all, if I might say so, Revelation is written in the style of... a play. There is scene after scene.

[Lineman]

Seems to me that someone could say, after reading this quote, that we should not even create movies or videos so that we can share the Gospel with non-Christians.

Not sure I can agree that "Revelation is written in the style of...a play". I guess if we were to look at things that way we could say that the "style" of plays is styled after real life though.

I would have to say though that Revelation is history written in advance rather than being "written in the style of a play".

[Woody]

Perhaps Revelation was grandfathered in as far as the jot and tittle rule from Ellen White.

[Cosmin M.]

Weird..... I was logged off and when I saw this post it had avatars in it! Now since I am logged on it has no avatars.

[Cosmin M.]

Also good-night all!

[Cosmin M.]

Wait, nvm I just figured it out. I'ts in Preferences.

[Neil D]

Plays are parables...They describe the human condition and give solutions to human dramas...

If we can not see that the best form of entertainment in the biblical times was storytelling, and the best form of storytelling was in the form of parables, then we are being very strict with our definitions.

The concept of allowing theater in the chruch verses anything theatrical in the church are too very different concepts....

theater

1. of or pertaining to the theater or dramatic presentations: theatrical performances.

2. suggestive of the theater or of acting; artificial, pompous, spectacular, or extravagantly histrionic: a theatrical display of grief.

Quote:

" I have a message for those in charge of our work. Do not encourage the men who are to engage in this work to think that they must proclaim the solemn, sacred message in a theatrical style. Not one jot or tittle of anything theatrical is to be brought into our work. God's cause is to have a sacred, heavenly mold. Let everything connected with the giving of the message for this time bear the divine impress. Let noth-ing of a theatrical nature be permitted, for this would spoil the sacredness of the work…

Men who thought they had a wonderful work to do sought to adopt a strange deportment and manifested oddities in bodily exercise. The light given me was, "Give this no sanc-tion." These performances, which savored of the theatrical, were to have no place in the proclamation of the solemn messages entrusted to us. " 19MR, p.125.

Theatrical can and is used to convey an artifical or spectacular or pompous dramatic event. Given our prophet's choice of words, I would suggest one read the underlined portion again and apply the appropriate definition to her work...

[Lineman]

Was just watching a music video in another thread on this forum and began to wonder if some people feel that these videos are falling into the "theatrical"?

[Neil D]

If by "theatrical" you mean shallow....the answer is some of them do....there are some that don't.

[John317]

I know that's an Ellen White quote, but I don't recognize the reference: MR. What is it? Messages to --?

And when was it written?

It's Manuscript Releases, Vol 19, page 125. The original was manuscript 19, 1910.

What Redwood posted were the first two paragraphs. The third paragraph explains much of Ellen White's intention in writing:

"The enemy will watch closely, and will take every advantage of circumstances to degrade the truth by the introduction of undignified demonstrations. None of these demonstrations are to be encouraged. The precious truths given to us are to be spoken in all solemnity and with sacred awe."

The next paragraphs are about not making sermons too long because it wearies and imperils the health of the speaker

Then she says, "The minister of God is not to speak words which will create levity."

Levity-- humor or frivolity, esp. the treatment of a serious matter with humor or in a manner lacking due respect

[Lineman]

I had to look "levity" up.

levity n 1: feeling an inappropriate lack of seriousness [ant: gravity] 2: lightness of manner.

[BSW]

Quote:

" I have a message for those in charge of our work. Do not encourage the men who are to engage in this work to think that they must proclaim the solemn, sacred message in a theatrical style. Not one jot or tittle of anything theatrical is to be brought into our work. God's cause is to have a sacred, heavenly mold. Let everything connected with the giving of the message for this time bear the divine impress. Let noth-ing of a theatrical nature be permitted, for this would spoil the sacredness of the work…

Men who thought they had a wonderful work to do sought to adopt a strange deportment and manifested oddities in bodily exercise. The light given me was, "Give this no sanc-tion." These performances, which savored of the theatrical, were to have no place in the proclamation of the solemn messages entrusted to us. " 19MR, p.125.

I would read this as just as it reads. We have a very serious calling, and to make a "show" of it, probably lessens the seriousness of the message.

It is hard to give our last day message with power to convict of sin and the turning to a Savior before He leaves His priestly duties and comes back as a devouring fire to the lost, in a theatrical setting, isn't it?

I mean doesn't the Bible say that that day will be the "terrible day of the Lord"? Isn't the close of probation just upon us? The time of trouble such as has never been on the planet? And we want to make a play or movie?

go ahead

Peace

[LifeHiscost]

I've seen some sermons delivered in a theatrical style, the delivery a drama in itself, and I've thought, Oh, brother.

In that case, then I'd agree with Jeannie that an actual play might be more effective.

When a story is acted out to reveal the love of God IMHO it becomes another method of communication the love of God is willing to use for the sake of those unable to hear by other means. When the TV program "Faith for Today" put on dramatic programs for the sake of carrying gospel messages to the world, this believer (who wasn't an Adventist at that time) was moved by the Holy Spirit in very meaningful ways, to receive the message of the Adventist church.

OTOH I've listened to long standing Adventist preachers in this present day who seem to feel it important to yell for God, in order for those who don't seem to have ears to hear, maybe to be sure that their ears might be opened by the very force of yelling, to hear God speak. Some have only motivated me to change the program.

I'm satisfied God will use any means He can, that will tend to move people to see His love for them transcends any wall the prince of darkness has set up to prevent man from recognizing that love.

"I became to the infirm as infirm, that the infirm I might gain; to all men I have become all things, that by all means I may save some." 1 Cor 9:22 YLT

"But He said to him, "A man was giving a big dinner, and he invited many;

and at the dinner hour he sent his slave to say to those who had been invited, 'Come; for everything is ready now.'

"But they all alike began to make excuses. The first one said to him, 'I have bought a piece of land and I need to go out and look at it; please consider me excused.'

"Another one said, 'I have bought five yoke of oxen, and I am going to try them out; please consider me excused.'

"Another one said, 'I have married a wife, and for that reason I cannot come.'

"And the slave came back and reported this to his master. Then the head of the household became angry and said to his slave, 'Go out at once into the streets and lanes of the city and bring in here the poor and crippled and blind and lame.'

"And the slave said, 'Master, what you commanded has been done, and still there is room.'

"And the master said to the slave, 'Go out into the highways and along the hedges, and compel them to come in, so that my house may be filled.

'For I tell you, none of those men who were invited shall taste of my dinner.'" Luke 14:16-24 NASB

I believe we are living in the days here portrayed and believe myself one of those safe in the arms of Jesus as a direct result of the Kings effort to reach out to those who know they don't deserve any of the gifts Jesus offers.

Blessings!

[LifeHiscost]

I take this statement as I did the bicycle deal. I think that these theaters she mentions were really houses of ill repute in her day.

pk

I'm glad you brought that up, PK. I'm afraid in this day and age, red dresses and bicycles are probably the least of Christian concern. We could have a whole thread of thought on how environmentally and politically correct bicycles are as opposed to gas guzzling, carbon monoxide spewing, chairs for individuals to ensure comfort and dignity in daily life.

It seems ludicrous to place the intentions, that were altogether correct in their proper context, to meet today's needs.

One man's opinion.

Regards!

[Bravus]

"by all means save everyone"

[Gerr]

Perhaps we should look at what is meant by "theatrical style" that she found objectionable.