Ingmar Guandiqu ... an illegal alien

[Woody]

This deserves the 'Oh Brother' Award.

[there buster]

Quote:

34'The stranger who resides with you shall be to you as the native among you, and (A)you shall love him as yourself, for you were aliens in the land of Egypt; I am the LORD your God.

This is a problem with context. Nation-states did not exist in the time of Leviticus. At the time Leviticus was given, the Israelites themselves were nomadic.

And of course, there is this, earlier in the same chapter:

19 " 'Keep my decrees.

" 'Do not mate different kinds of animals.

" 'Do not plant your field with two kinds of seed.

" 'Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material.

20 " 'If a man sleeps with a woman who is a slave girl promised to another man but who has not been ransomed or given her freedom, there must be due punishment. Yet they are not to be put to death, because she had not been freed. 21 The man, however, must bring a ram to the entrance to the Tent of Meeting for a guilt offering to the LORD. 22 With the ram of the guilt offering the priest is to make atonement for him before the LORD for the sin he has committed, and his sin will be forgiven.

So I guess we must not produce mules. Can't sow pumpkins among the corn, and all my cotton blends have got to go.

And then, there's chapter 20

1 The LORD said to Moses, 2 "Say to the Israelites: 'Any Israelite or any alien living in Israel who gives [a] any of his children to Molech must be put to death. . . .

and, not least . . .

27 " 'A man or woman who is a medium or spiritist among you must be put to death. You are to stone them; their blood will be on their own heads.' "

So, we'll ignore the illegal aliens and go witch hunting. . . .literally.

Or maybe the circumstances have changed.

[Bravus]

Amazing how much of the Bible we can explain away when we try.

What was Jesus' attitude to foreigners again?

[LifeHiscost]

Amazing how much of the Bible we can explain away when we try.

What was Jesus' attitude to foreigners again?

It is true that God gives every person the freedom to do anything they wish. Along with that goes responsibility to accept the consequences. When a person, believer or unbeliever, deals harshly with another, believer or unbeliever, their own mistakes will receive the same as they delivered.

"Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap."

Galatians 6:7 NASB

"For God shows no partiality [ undue favor or unfairness; with Him one man is not different from another]." Romans 2:11 AMP Brackets theirs LHC

"

But when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. " John 8:7 ASV

I recall some words of wisdom from unknown source.

"Make sure your words are soft and sweet, for tomorrow you may have to eat them."

Regards!

[there buster]

Quote:

It is true that God gives every person the freedom to do anything they wish. Along with that goes responsibility to accept the consequences. When a person, believer or unbeliever, deals harshly with another, believer or unbeliever, their own mistakes will receive the same as they delivered.

So, when Jesus said, "Get thee behind me, Satan,"

or

"You brood of vipers,"

was he dealing harshly with others?

[there buster]

Quote:

Amazing how much of the Bible we can explain away when we try.

19 "

So all parts of scripture are equally binding?

'Keep my decrees.

" 'Do not mate different kinds of animals.

" 'Do not plant your field with two kinds of seed.

" 'Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material.

20 " 'If a man sleeps with a woman who is a slave girl promised to another man but who has not been ransomed or given her freedom, there must be due punishment. Yet they are not to be put to death, because she had not been freed. 21 The man, however, must bring a ram to the entrance to the Tent of Meeting for a guilt offering to the LORD. 22 With the ram of the guilt offering the priest is to make atonement for him before the LORD for the sin he has committed, and his sin will be forgiven.

So I guess we must not produce mules. Can't sow pumpkins among the corn, and all my cotton blends have got to go.

And then, there's chapter 20

1 The LORD said to Moses, 2 "Say to the Israelites: 'Any Israelite or any alien living in Israel who gives [a] any of his children to Molech must be put to death. . . .

and, not least . . .

27 " 'A man or woman who is a medium or spiritist among you must be put to death. You are to stone them; their blood will be on their own heads.' "

Or do you plan to 'explain these away'?

Now, there might be a basis for accepting one and rejecting others, but whatever that basis is, it must be applied to all texts.

Besides, the question is not about generic foreigners. It is a question of lawbreakers.

Personally, I'm a Xenophile. I love foreigners, because I can learn so much from them. And I think immigration is a great thing for the US. But there are laws concerning immigration, and there must be. Around the world, nations with porous borders are trouble spots.

[Woody]

The question with immigration is ...

Do we allow law breakers to continue in their sins?

Are there consequences to sin and lawlessess?

If you openly sin (such as they are doing) ... you are not allowed to be in the church. You would have to suffer discipline and possible disfellowship in the church ... SO ... why should it be any different outside the church.

What do you all think about open sin?

[Bravus]

Well yes. The correct thing to have done would have been to keep them out in the first place, and devote enough resources to find and deport all of them as they came in, and so on. That has not been done, and now there are 12 million. And that was not done in large part because they were needed as labor - they were employed, which is why they come, and no-one got serious about not employing them or stopping them coming.

The legally correct thing to do is to round them all up and deport them, by all means. But that is simply not practical - 12 million people is more than half the population of Australia, or more than the entire population of LA. So where to from here? Might there not be humane ways to allow some to gain citizenship?

What people seem not to be getting is that I'm not condoning lawbreaking, I'm trying to find a humane solution to a huge problem that in many times is only partly of the illegal immigrants' making. We've discussed this here before: how about some legal sanctions against those who illegally employed these people too?

And finally, *this* particular run at the issue was based on the Ingmar Guandiqu story. There are several salient points:

1. Guandiqu has not yet been charged with, let alone convicted of, Chandra Levy's murder. There's lots of speculation and not much firm fact. (He is a very unpleasant criminal who *has* been convicted of some other attacks.)

2. What is being attempted here is to slur all illegals as potential murderers with Guandiqu's case. That is nonsense - incidence of crime among illegals (yes, ichabod, leaving aside the crime of their illegal status) is at about the same level as for citizens.

3. Further, Guandiqu was *not* an illegal immigrant: he had been given amnesty on humanitarian grounds after earthquakes in his own country.

At bottom, the arguments being made are xenophobic: 'those illegals are not like us, they'll come here and kill us all'. They're exactly like us - human beings trying to survive and build a better life for their families. And yes, being exactly like us means that about as many of them are criminals as there are of us who are criminals.

[Woody]

Quote:

"Guandiqu has not yet been charged with, let alone convicted of, Chandra Levy's murder. There's lots of speculation and not much firm fact."

I wonder if the priest who takes confession thinks that one is not convicted in the eyes of God when one confesses?

I wonder if God considers one to be guilty when one confesses.

Hey ... The man confessed. Thus ... as far as we all are concerned ... HE IS GUILTY. We have to take the illegal at his word. If he is willing to commit one sin ... he is willing to commit another and to confess. He has been found guilty of other attacks and now he confesses to this one. He has been on the police watch for this because he was in the area at the time.

Look. The man may be an illegal ... but surely ... he is a human being ... and we can take him at his word.

[Bravus]

Reading comprehension 101 - he is *not* an illegal

[Woody]

Reading comprehension 101 - he is *not* an illegal

Fox has reported that he IS an illegal. I stand by Fox.

[phkrause]

I don't think Fox is the only one that has claimed that Redwood.

pk

[Woody]

Quote:

If you openly sin (such as they are doing) ... you are not allowed to be in the church.

Wrong comparison, we are all practicing open sin and we are members of the SDA church and get this....Gods Church!!!!

Oh, maybe you are talking about a 'specil class' of sins that will keep us out of the SDA church!!

There ARE some classes of open sin that will keep you out of the church. Perhaps this will become a new class of open sin that will cause discipline to come upon you. The Manual is 'open' on this issue. It states that ANY open sin can cause you to be disfellowshipped.

[Woody]

I don't think Fox is the only one that has claimed that Redwood.

pk

Well ... I heard Glenn Beck proclaim it yesterday on FOX.

[phkrause]

Yes but other stations have also reported this is what I meant. Wasn't sure you got that.

pk

[Woody]

[Bravus]

Hmm, so when your aim is to slander a whole class of people, based on the actions of one scumbag, it doesn't even matter whether, factually, said scumbag is even a member of the group?

Wow.

[Woody]

I would believe Fox over any other station.

[Woody]

Check this out ...

http://michellemalkin.com/2009/02/23/ret...gmar-guandique/

illegal alien sex offender Ingmar Guandique

By Michelle Malkin • February 23, 2009 05:02 AM

News broke over the weekend that an arrest may be imminent in the Chandra Levy murder case. There is reportedly DNA evidence linking Levy to illegal alien sex offender Ingmar Guandique. His name should be familiar to those of you who have followed the story over the years. I first wrote about Guandique nearly seven years ago — and I’m seeing history repeat itself again with the MSM’s whitewashing of Guandique’s immigration status (just look at these search results and spot the missing word.)

[Bravus]

Uhuh, that bastion of unbiased reporting Michelle Malkin!

OK, here's what I'm working from: from actually a source you guys should feel very comfortable with too: The Free Republic: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/692716/posts

"In a statement released in response to questions from Human Events, the Eastern Region Office of the Immigration and Naturalization Service said: "Our records indicate that Mr. Guandique entered the United States illegally but was eligible for an immigration benefit because of the designation of Temporary Protected Status (TPS) for nationals of El Salvador. He filed for that benefit and received work authorization while that application was pending. The application has subsequently been denied because Guandique failed to submit fingerprints."

President Bush decided to grant TPS status to illegal aliens from El Salvador on March 2 of last year after meeting with Salvadoran President Francisco Flores. According to a 1990 immigration law, the attorney general can certify illegal aliens as eligible for this status whenever he determines "they are temporarily unable to return to their homelands" because of a war or natural disaster. In January and February 2001 there were earthquakes in El Salvador that killed hundreds of people. Bush determined that TPS status should be extended to Salvadoran illegal immigrants as a means of providing additional financial aid to the stricken country. "This will allow them to continue to work here and to remit some of their wages back home to support El Salvador’s recovery efforts," Bush said at the time.

A few days after the President’s decision, Atty. Gen. John Ashcroft issued regulations indicating that any Salvadoran who had been in the United States before February 13, 2001 could apply by September 9, 2002 to stay in the U.S. under TPS. While their TPS application were pending, they could apply for permission to legally work in the United States. Ashcroft estimated there were 150,000 potential applicants for the program."

[there buster]

Quote:

so when your aim is to slander a whole class of people

pkrause, Redwood, was that your aim?

[Woody]

I give up Ichabod ... no matter what I say and how I say it ... this member here will inform me of my ill intentions.

[phkrause]

No! absolutely not. I have never slander a group of people nor an individual. Redwood remark that this man was reported as an illegal by Fox news and I commented that Fox was not the only news station that reported this. I am assuming that free speech is not allowed now! Especially when news telecasts have reported the info.

pk

[Woody]

Yes CoAspen. A lot of winkin' goes on. Most churches have a list of sins that they do not tolerate. But this can be different with each church board. I don't agree with the way it currently is ... but it is designed for flexibility. If it were me ... I would abolish disfellowshipping. Or ... better yet ... I would abolish membership period. But, yes ... we can PM on this further as to not to derail this delicious personal attack thread.

[phkrause]

Why! are you being attacked Redwood?

pk