My adult son walks out of the worship service.

[Guest]

He is not some anti-religious psycho secular slob.

This is a spin off from another thread...

yet after hearing cell phones go off during the prayer and having an infant shake a baby rattle constantly

next to him, with the mother's permission or neglect... and 3 offerings just during the worship service alone..and boring preliminary after preliminary .....

Anyone else attend a SDA church from ghenna???

[Nicodema]

The first time I took my son (16) to church (since childhood) I was rather disappointed that afterwards, he did not seem interested in returning. It took him a few weeks to actually talk with me about why (teenagers can be like that sometimes). Turns out he had been not merely offended but downright freaked out by one of the women in our sabbath school discussion who had gone off on a tangent raving about how she would do "anything" God asked her to do -- and she named some pretty drastic and bizarre examples of that "anything".

I completely did not remember that part of the discussion AT ALL, but I'm not surprised -- I frequently dissociate and this is exactly the kind of thing I would have dissociated over. My son doesn't dissociate however, and his reaction was very normal and healthy: "Mom, I was completely appalled. I mean, this woman was TWISTED. She belonged in a mental institution."

And sorry but in cases like those, somehow the old cliche about "welllll gosh golly gee the devil will do anything to keep us out of church" just does NOT cut it. I mean give me a break, why can't I take my son to church in the hopes of him hearing the healing word of God, of encountering the Light of the World, and NOT have him traumatized for the effort? Don't I have a right to expect that much? By "right" I mean, is it not reasonable to expect at the VERY least that much? I don't expect a whole lot, truly.

[LifeHiscost]

[:"red"] "Do not complain, brethren, against one another, so that you [yourselves] may not be judged. Look! The Judge is [already] standing at the very door.

James 5:9

16These are inveterate murmurers (grumblers) who complain [of their lot in life..." [/]

Lift Jesus up!!

[Guest]

LHC,

Am I incorrect in posting that your scripture reply implies that the remarks/complaints are not valid or unfounded?

Matt 21

13 and said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; Is. 56.7 but ye have made it a den of thieves.

Was Jesus grumbling?

How bad does it have to get?

Does someone have to roll in a 60 inch TV and watch sports on TV in the sanctuary before w can grumble?

Do topless dancers have to come in?

How many cell phones have to go off before anything can be done about it..??

[Neil D]

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yet after hearing cell phones go off during the prayer and having an infant shake a baby rattle constantly

next to him, with the mother's permission or neglect... and 3 offerings just during the worship service alone..and boring preliminary after preliminary .....

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So, Jimbob, when are you going to bring the problem of boring preliminary after preliminary to the pastor? Does the church board know about this? Have you gone to the meeting and brought up this problem?

Of course, you have to do have to use some tact when bringing up this problem....Have you talked to your son and asked for a written complaint?

Hey Nico, have you ever concidered that our church attracts the weird ones in the human population? I mean, anyone who says that they would do anything God asked them to, and not question it and looks certifiable, certainly qualifies as "weird" in my book. And your "diassociation" during this converstation tells me of some profound problems that you seemed to have aquired. [shudder] It's probably a good thing that your defense mechanism kicks in when it does! Have you talked to the pastor about your son? Do you have a youth pastor? Have you concidered a cell group for fellowship? [although, that can be a bit dicey as well, depending upon the poeple].

[Guest]

Neil,

I talk with people at the church to ascertain the sensitivity to the issues. I usually deal with the deacons or elders..at this church I am neither.

My son mentioned that we ought to take Amelia's cartoon and make a bunch of copies and put them on the windshields in the church parking lot...while the sermon is going

Isn't that cool????

Since there are supposed to be always a small percentage of whiners...I need to see if the percentage is at the level to initiate stronger action.

Maybe most don't care if cell phones go off or the sermon is short and the preliminaries are long or there is constant racket from the kids and infants..the usual steady roar...or there is 3 offering during church and the sabbath school has theirs too so that is 4 in a 3 hour period..

But..there are Gideons out there who will mess around in spite of the major populations loving their ease and idols..

I have already started spreading this out with communication to various sources besides this..

[Nicodema]

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[:"red"] "Do not complain, brethren, against one another, so that you [yourselves] may not be judged. Look! The Judge is [already] standing at the very door.

James 5:9

16These are inveterate murmurers (grumblers) who complain [of their lot in life..." [/]

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Having you judge me as a "complainer" (and therefore, I presume, only to be dismissed) does nothing to HELP matters here. I am still left with a son whom I love more than life itself, who now, through no fault of his own, nor mine, has a negative association between church and some raving wild-eyed zealot who went on and on about how she would not hesitate to go even so far as to do violence to family members "if God commanded it." Maybe you don't give a toss about this, LHC, but I sure do. I want my son to have positive and healthy mental associations with the idea of God and church.

You can judge me all you like as being a mere "inveterate complainer," but I'm still entitled to at least some "dog food" as it were, and I will still press my plea for the "scraps" from the Master's table that are my right, for myself AND my son.

[Nicodema]

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Hey Nico, have you ever concidered that our church attracts the weird ones in the human population? I mean, anyone who says that they would do anything God asked them to, and not question it and looks certifiable, certainly qualifies as "weird" in my book.

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Basically I think it is a matter of context. I am able to process people saying those kinds of things because I have a context for it which is founded in an understanding of God as a reasonable and compassionate all-wise, all-loving Supreme Being. But to someone "outside" the Spirit looking in, those kinds of statements can sound very bizarre and outré indeed, even "certifiable". And it's hard to describe to them how to parse that stuff, especially when we are talking impressionable 16 year olds who are really sensitive to everything going on and expressed around them, at the height of the age range where they are suspicious of adults and adult motives, particularly toward themselves.

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And your "dissociation" during this converstation tells me of some profound problems that you seemed to have acquired. [shudder] It's probably a good thing that your defense mechanism kicks in when it does!

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I'm not 100% sure I dissociated actually -- that's just the first explanation that came to my mind because I totally did not remember that woman's statements at all. I even told my son as much, asked him, "where was *I* while this was going on?" I asked him did he remember me responding to her statements, or anything -- it really troubles me that I can't remember anything about it specifically. I can only conclude I was either dissociating or processing that entire chunk of the discussion on a totally different level. I certainly was not seeing/hearing what my son was seeing/hearing, and it bothered me that I was not more tuned into his perceptions -- even potentially so -- at the time.

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Have you talked to the pastor about your son? Do you have a youth pastor? Have you concidered a cell group for fellowship? [although, that can be a bit dicey as well, depending upon the poeple].

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We don't have a youth pastor. It's a smallish church. The pastor is new (last June). He's busy getting acclimated and settled. A little too busy. No, I've not spoken with him. I don't think I've even been back to church since that time. The past autumn was a blur for me. I don't remember much of it at all. Autumn tends to be like that, and I tend to isolate myself for that reason. Now that it's over I've been thinking of going back to church again but having not gone for awhile I feel awkward about it, and I'm not sure where I want to go.

I wouldn't even know where to find a cell group, and I doubt one would want me even if I did.

[Pockey]

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...I've been thinking of going back to church again but having not gone for awhile I feel awkward about it, and I'm not sure where I want to go.

I wouldn't even know where to find a cell group, and I doubt one would want me even if I did.

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Are you forreal?! I know you must be joking. Any group would want you and be very lucky to have you.

I hope you do go back to church. I'm trying to go back too. Maybe we can encourage each other to go again.

[Nicodema]

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Any group would want you and be very lucky to have you.

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What a sweet thing to say! Thank you, Sid.

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I hope you do go back to church. I'm trying to go back too. Maybe we can encourage each other to go again.

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Deal ... too bad you don't live nearby, we could go together!

[Pockey]

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Deal ... too bad you don't live nearby, we could go together!

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I agree, I would like that

[Nicodema]

When was the last time you went? Just if you feel like sharing ...

[Pockey]

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When was the last time you went? Just if you feel like sharing ...

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I'd love to share. Thanks for asking. Last Sabbath was the first time in several months. Over the past 9 years, I pretty much stopped going. But now having surrendered my life to Jesus, I really want to start going on a consistant basis and find a church that I can contribute to in some way. It's funny, I never really thought going to church was that important. I always thought I could just do my own bible study (which often ended up being code word for sleep). It wasn't until I started reading the bible again, and other books like Purpose Driven Life, where I realized how important church is...not just for me, but for me to help others with whatever talents I may have. I know a lot of people will benefit from your talents Nico, (and I know they already do here manifold). If we don't go, people will miss out on our gifts.

[Nicodema]

My first inclination would be to say "it works better that way" -- meaning it works out better when you go to church with the attitude of seeing what you can offer and contribute rather than seeing what you can "get out of it".

But the fact of the matter is, that sometimes isn't true. Sometimes going with that attitude can only end up making it worse. You get all geared up to make a contribution, to make a difference, to be part of things, to share your talents -- and instead you get shut out, rejected, blocked.

And other times, well, it's not their fault but mine. My afflictions get in the way of my "gifts". I find in order to get along with other people I end up having to do all the work, while I'm the one least capable of handling all that, least able to bear the stress. I don't assimilate well into groups, not much of a "joiner". I tend to think if we are all there to contribute something then that means me too, and that's usually where the trouble starts. Right at the spot where I expect to be treated like everyone else.

I only have these kinds of problems with church people and office-type/workplace people. Two places where you can't just pick your own crowd, you know? When I hang out with "my own kind" I'm fine. Of course, I'm ... well let's just say "my own kind" consists primarily of first-degree relatives. LOL. But not entirely so. I'm tribal by nature so I'm always adopting strays ...

[Pockey]

You've been through a lot Nico. I can't even imagine. I speak about theory, but in reality, I'm a naive patronizing idiot, who really hasn't done jack. I feel bad that you were afflicted. It's not fair.

I think I understand what you are saying. You're right, we are all different and have different niches of serving according to our personality, make-up, etc. I will take things one step at a time, and feel-out/experiment to find out how I may serve best, not how I think in my mind I should serve.

I understand a little more about where you're coming from. Would love to hear more about your thoughts on this.

[Kimberly]

One thing I really don't like in SDA churches is that all the kids stay during the service. One week recently they had "Children's Church". My kids loved it so much more than sitting in the pews and coloring and trying to stay awake! The church should have the kids go to their own "children's church" every week! This also makes for less noise during the sermon!

My kids are used to the Sunday churches having Sunday school, so I think Sabbath churches should have Sabbath school for kids during worship time! This would be alot less hectic. I think Mormons also have their kids with them during church...it's just too noisy. Kids need their own time together to worship. Do you really think they get much out of the adult's sermon?

Kim

[Jeannieb43]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />

...it's just too noisy. Kids need their own time together to worship. Do you really think they get much out of the adult's sermon?

Kim

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Hi Kim... This is a great question.

IMHO, the children will model their behavior on that of their parents. I've seen parents bring their children into the pews with lots of "toys" [coloring books, dolls, etc.] and then begin to focus totally on the kids -- instead of focusing their own attention on the sermon or the music or whatever's going on up front. Then the kids become the center of attention and never learn to sit quietly without expecting a lot of attention.

On the other hand, it's obvious if the parent prepares the child beforehand what to expect, then if the parent is totally absorbed in what s/he's hearing from the preacher, the child will look up, see that that's the thing to do, and will go back to amusing himself quietly. If you don't allow the kids to divert your attention (more than instantaneously in an emergency) from the worship service; if you sit near the front where other, less well-behaved kids aren't bothering you; if you engage your kids along with you in standing, kneeling, singing from the hymnal, etc.... THEN the kids learn to sit quietly, and maybe even start listening to the sermon themselves.

As they get older you can give them paper and pencil and let them mark down every time they hear the word "Jesus" or "angels" or "prophecy" or something like that. This keeps them alert without making them necessarily required to understand every single nuance of the sermon.

It works! Start out by sitting in the front of the church, and devoting your own attention directly on the service itself. The kids will soon learn to follow suit.

The only exception to this is if they start to cry or make a disturbance. Then, the child must be removed from the sanctuary as quickly and quietly as possible, both for his own sake [training as to what's acceptable behavior in church] and for the sake of the other worshipers. But after he's been properly reprimanded outside, then he is returned to the front pew with his siblings, and the parent goes on worshiping and does not pay any further attention to the now-corrected child.

[Guest]

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The only exception to this is if they start to cry or make a disturbance. Then, the child must be removed from the sanctuary as quickly and quietly as possible, both for his own sake [training as to what's acceptable behavior in church] and for the sake of the other worshipers.

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Amen..

This is why we sat at the outside edge of the pews...for the quick escape..and only had to do it once with my kids.

I was outside before the pastor finished his sentence.

[Kimberly]

I understand how you feel, but howcome the SDA church has the children in the church instead of having their own separate time with other kids?

Just curious...is it because they feel the children belong with their parents?

This weekend we are having Children's church, so it will be nice, in my opinion.

Kim

[Neil D]

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Basically I think it is a matter of context. I am able to process people saying those kinds of things because I have a context for it which is founded in an understanding of God as a reasonable and compassionate all-wise, all-loving Supreme Being. But to someone "outside" the Spirit looking in, those kinds of statements can sound very bizarre and outré indeed, even "certifiable". And it's hard to describe to them how to parse that stuff, especially when we are talking impressionable 16 year olds who are really sensitive to everything going on and expressed around them, at the height of the age range where they are suspicious of adults and adult motives, particularly toward themselves.

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I concur that context is necessary for full understanding of the statement. Not too many pastors would go into a Bar to have a cool one with the guys. Mainly, the problem is that of perception. What's a pastor doing, going to a bar? Maybe a form of evangelization that he is trying out...After all, Jesus was known for being a winebibber...Why cant a pastor, not drink an alcoholic drink, but hang out with the guys who do at the bar? It might be a revelation in how to create a new kind of SDA church...

However, there are several people who come to the SDA church, according to my observation, who have just plain strange ideas...iradology, food fedishes, insistances of the church as a whole doing certain practices otherwise "the Lord will never come"....People who are unbalanced whose tendancys to extremism is somewhat flaunted, insistances upon the law, or upon some form of righteousness by faith, I am sure that you know the type of person that comes to mind....These are the ones that come to MY church...for whatever reason, I don't know, but they come to be heard and when they feel that they are heard, they melt into the sea of people....

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I'm not 100% sure I dissociated actually

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I did wonder....

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We don't have a youth pastor. It's a smallish church. The pastor is new (last June). He's busy getting acclimated and settled. A little too busy. No, I've not spoken with him. I don't think I've even been back to church since that time. The past autumn was a blur for me. I don't remember much of it at all. Autumn tends to be like that, and I tend to isolate myself for that reason. Now that it's over I've been thinking of going back to church again but having not gone for awhile I feel awkward about it, and I'm not sure where I want to go.

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I hope that you do go back...You do bring balance to the forums here, and I am sure that you would bring balance to your church.

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I wouldn't even know where to find a cell group, and I doubt one would want me even if I did.

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I don't care if someone else invited you to thiers,....You KNOW that mine would welcome you [iF I had one! ] and you would definately affirm and be affirmed from it. Nico, don't you let the adversary take from you the assurance that no one would want you. We do want you here... and in my cell group, if I had one

[bevin]

After 35 years of sitting through sermons (from age 10-45) I finally realized what an utter waste of time they are. The rest of the program isn't much better.

I don't go any more - and I don't miss it. I do miss some of the friendships - but I replaced those with involvement in a genuine community service organization.

/Bevin

[cricket]

Kim,

Our church, a SDA church, does have Children's Church every Sabbath. My kids enjoy it, and I enjoy it on the rare occasion that I actually get to go to "Adult Church".

The problem with having Children's Church every Sabbath is that those of us who are involved in ministering to the children rarely get a chance to be ministered unto. Yes, rotation does solve this--to a degree. In a small church, it doesn't work so well.

You mentioned something about having the Sabbath School meet at this time. In theory, it sounds good. If our church were to do this, however, we'd have to have some sort of baby-sitting service for the children when the adults are having their Sabbath School time.

It is a difficult situation, indeed.

Sabbath School is one thing. Worship is something entirely different. Worship--to me, anyway--is a time of experiencing togetherness with the Lord. Singing praises, giving testimonies, sharing our burdens with one another, praying and relating with one another are the very things that make up the crux of worship.

Of course, children can do similar things at more of a "seeker" level, but they, too, would be missing out on some of the good stuff that happens at the adult level.

Perhaps this is why we have changed the name of our worship service to "Family Worship". It is a time when we choose to have our families together in worshiping the Lord.

A thought that you might want to consider: when dining out with your children at a finer restaurant, do you expect a certain behavior from them that differs from the behavior you'd expect from them at McDonald's? If so, and if you find that your expectations of them are reasonable given the atmosphere, isn't it then also acceptable to expect better behavior from a child at the time of worship than at the time of Sabbath School?

[Guest]

bevin,

I understand..really unfortunate..but maybe not...since you are still mingling..

I mean..some might have "with it" services ..yet...I know out there most likely it is some shallow lame NFDMTTS...with 33 RPM hymns, boring/coercive offering appeals, noisy ambiance, trite prayers that don't reach the ceiling..program after program lacking enthusiasm..and fund raisers for everything under the sun.

Wow I can't wait til sabbath so I can go back and endure it again

[Bravus]

We have a great Kids' Church at our church too. That has a number of effects. One is that, even if we feel tired and would like a Sabbath off for a rest at home, our kids get us up and drag us to church. I suspect if they had to sit in the sanctuary that situation might be reversed. After all, we don't expect kids to sit in university classes, we give them some teaching that's appropriate to their needs, and if the church sermon is to feed the adults, it will tend to go over the heads of the kids. Having them not there also frees up the speaker to talk honestly and openly about adult issues in a way that would be difficult with kids listening.

[Guest]

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Having them not there also frees up the speaker to talk honestly and openly about adult issues in a way that would be difficult with kids listening.

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Bravus..I was thinking of this very point last night..

When kids are there..even though there is a children's story in many churches..I think the pastor adjusts the level of his message to include a younger/more immature level to shoot at the average age level..like the TV does..

When the kids are out, the pastor can raise the maturity level up ..

I still think that most don't have a clue on what to do anyway...it is just the tired, inept homiletics approach in the denomination.

My Baptist preacher buddy just wrapped up a study of the book of Ephesians for his church.during the worship service time....covered very effectively more verses than I have heard preached on for 10 years in an SDA church.

He does scripture rich topical but does books often as well.

and it is so quiet in there...