Kerry responds to your comments!!!

March 4, 2009

Luke:

Thanks for the information you have provided from the Adventist forum. These people are godly, sincere people, as I was, myself, as an Adventist. I used to use all these arguments myself, and I am as capable of writing a book for the Sabbath as I am of writing a book against the Sabbath. I know all the arguments. Unfortunately, these arguments just don't hold water. I turned my back on the Sabbath and Adventism because NOT A SINGLE PERSON could answer any of the questions my paper reviews and provides solid answers for. My very intelligent Adventist pastor had no one single answer for me.

As we have discussed along the way, Sabbatarianism is the most complicated of all the false doctrines of Christianity. In order to understand its falseness, one has to understand the major themes and concepts of the Bible. Adventist proof texting to prove the Sabbath ignores the major concepts and principles of the Bible, as my paper so clearly demonstrates. It only takes understanding a few key points to realize the Sabbath doctrine is IMPOSSIBLE.

Adventists have a false prophet named Ellen White. Even her own Church admitted in 1990 that she lied about her visions and that she copied most of what she said that she claimed was from God. In 1919 a secret meeting of top Adventist leaders met to discuss whether to tell the Church at that time that she was a fraud, or to try to cover the fact up.

As long as an Adventist believes in Ellen White, who claimed to have been shown by God that the Sabbath was the TRUTH, no amount of biblical evidence, even piled a mile high, will make any difference to him. If an angel were to come down from Heaven and tell them that the Sabbath was not true, that person would not believe it.

The greatest proof that Ellen White was a false prophet was her teachings about the Sabbath. At this point in history, there is no false doctrine that is easier to disprove than the Sabbath. It is now known to be contrary to virtually ever major principle and theme of the Bible.

Luke, I will take some additional hours of my time to respond to the replies you got from the Adventist forum, but I would so much prefer that you study my paper instead. It refutes each of their arguments in principle, if not specifically. Hebrews 4 can not be used to support Sabbatarianism, because the writer is using the Sabbath rest concept as a SYMBOL of the rest that Christians find in the Gospel. Read it for yourself in this light, and you will see that it can not possibly be used to defend Sabbatarianism. It doesn't even make a good "proof text."

The paper refutes Samuele Bacchiocchi point-by-point. It explains from the Bible why the concept of circumcision makes Sabbatarianism impossible.

Would you be willing to take a "time out" here and study my paper carefully? If you would, you, without any help from me or anyone else, could have easily defended yourself against these shallow arguments received by you from the Adventist Forum. They are so easily dismissed with just a few basic principles and facts.

I have put over 3,000 hours into the research and writing of this paper. There is almost no Adventist argument that it does not refute so thoroughly as to leave no excuse for continuing in error. These principles are self-evident.

Please let me know if you are willing to do this. I have taken the liberty to attach it to this message. Since it is almost book length, I would imagine it would take you a couple of weeks to study it to the point where you would be ready to refute the Adventist Forum on your own.

Please let me know what you are willing to do. If you are not able to study the paper, I will spend the additional hours to refute the Adventist Forum point by point. Since this has already been done in the paper so thoroughly, it would be good if you could get the information from the paper. the paper does a much more thorough job of refuting the Adventist Form responses than I could by spending hours piecing the information again for you.

The document is supplied in .rtf (Rich Text Format) which should open up in any Windows word processor. If you have any trouble opening it up, please let me know, and I can send it to you in Word, Open Office, or PDF.

It is obvious from reading the Adventist Forum that none of them have read Samuele Bacchiocchi's book, From Sabbath to Sunday for themselves. It was the huge inadequacies of his defense of the Sabbath that created the very anti-Sabbatarian movement that the Adventist Forum is trying to fight today! And Bacchiocchi, who researched the early history of the Church more thoroughly than any researcher in history conceded that Sabbath abandonment was universal by 140 AD! Yes, Luke, it is true that the error of Sabbatarianism kept being rediscovered throughout history and that there have always been small groups who clung to the error. In my paper you can read about how the groups that kept the Sabbath-- the Jewish groups in particular-- got messed of in heresy and ceased to exist as Christian faiths.

I am standing by to hear from you and will base my approach to replying to the Adventist Forum answers until I hear from you.

God bless!

Kerry

March 4, 2009

I'd be *astonished* if no-one here has read 'From Sabbath to Sunday'.

March 4, 2009

(and I might have used more moderate language about Kerry's writing if I'd known he was going to be reading it!)

March 4, 2009

Sabbath abandonment was universal by 140 AD! ....

This is a false argument as well as being inaccurate. But let us suppose for the sake of argument that he is right and not a single person kept the Sabbath by AD 140. Does that in itself prove that the Sabbath is wrong?

Let us go one step further and say we can't find a single person who believes in God or Christ. Would that prove that the NT is wrong?

Truth is not a popularity contest. The truth is truth because of God's word and not because it's popular or even because people obey it. It's truth whether people acknowledge it's truth or not.

Having said that, however, here is the statement by the fifth century historian of the Christian church, Socrates, regarding the keeping of the Sabbath during his time--

Quote:

The World

"For although almost all churches throughout The World celebrated the sacred mysteries (the Lord's Supper) on the Sabbath of every week, yet the Christians of Alexandria and at Rome, on account of some ancient tradition, refuse to do this." The footnote which accompanies the foregoing quotation explains the use of the word "Sabbath." It says: "That is, upon the Saturday. It should be observed, that Sunday is never called "the Sabbath' by the ancient Fathers and historians." Socrates, "Ecclesiastical History," Book 5, chap. 22, p. 289.

Constantinople

"The people of Constantinople, and almost everywhere, assemble together on the Sabbath, as well as on the first day of the week, which custom is never observed at Rome or at Alexandria." Socrates, "Ecclesiastical History," Book 7, chap.19. For further evidence that the Sabbath has been kept throughout history, see http://www.sabbathtruth.com/history/sabbath_history5.asp

March 4, 2009

... In 1919 a secret meeting of top Adventist leaders met to discuss whether to tell the Church at that time that she was a fraud, or to try to cover the fact up.

This is-- to put it kindly-- an inaccuracy. Please read the transcript of what was said at that meeting. There was never any talk of Ellen White being a fraud or anything even close to that.

The fact that Kerry would make this unfounded, baseless charge causes me to lose all confidence in him.

March 4, 2009

It was a teacher's meeting, in a high school, not a closed meeting of top adventists leaders, this is very false and is being believed in nearly all Christian churches in todays world.

The reason I am a Christian within the seventh-day Adventist Church is because it is far more Biblically correct than all the other mainland christian churches.

And also because I believe in the Sabbath as God's day for us to rest in Him and to keep holy and spend it with like-minded fellow believers in the faith, not legalistically or as a burden, but as a delight, because I love serving Jesus and obeying Him and I delight in it.

And my True rest is found in Jesus when I obey Him.

March 4, 2009

Originally Posted By: Kerry

It is obvious from reading the Adventist Forum that none of them have read Samuele Bacchiocchi's book, From Sabbath to Sunday for themselves. It was the huge inadequacies of his defense of the Sabbath that created the very anti-Sabbatarian movement that the Adventist Forum is trying to fight today! And Bacchiocchi, who researched the early history of the Church more thoroughly than any researcher in history conceded that Sabbath abandonment was universal by 140 AD! Yes, Luke, it is true that the error of Sabbatarianism kept being rediscovered throughout history and that there have always been small groups who clung to the error. In my paper you can read about how the groups that kept the Sabbath-- the Jewish groups in particular-- got messed of in heresy and ceased to exist as Christian faiths.

I am standing by to hear from you and will base my approach to replying to the Adventist Forum answers until I hear from you.

#1. Kerry needs to show up here and see if his arguments hold water.

#2. Paul said in Acts 20 that "After MY deparure men will come in from among your ownselves" with bad doctrine seeking to draw disciples after themselves. In fact Paul keeps telling Timonthy and Titus to combat the false doctrine that is even then sprouting up from every corner of their vineyard.

Bacciocchi points to the fact that the CENTER of the Christian church was Jerusalem (as we see in Acts 15) and that the Jerusalem church was KNOWN for Sabbath keeping EVEN when dispersed AND we of course know that the church in Africa kept Sabbath for many many centuries.

Kerry needs to come here and defend his views "in detail" showing that they have actual Bible and historic "substance".

in Christ,

Bob

March 4, 2009

I posted his entire book earlier today, Bob, so it might be worth your reading it (your choice, of course) to get a full sense of his argument. Please note that I'm not endorsing his book or his views.

March 4, 2009

Luke... 'the proof is in the pudding'

We were only one of the movements that came out of 1844

here is another one http://adventchristian.org/ there were others as well.

By following a lot of her leadership we are having about 20-25,000 people join every week, almost 100 new Churches or companies meeting every week for the first time. We have, a lot of other things going on as well, we are officially in most countries in the world, and unofficially in most of the others. The largest non-catholic school system in the world, with similar claims to the health care, the list goes one, typically we have done better when we listen to things she has said when it comes to expanding etc etc

BUT check out the results of similar organization that had no respect for her writings.

March 4, 2009

BTW I believe there were groups of people who did think that way after she died, I was in a Meeting with some of the EGW estate people when they were talking about that.

I can add, there were folks that felt that way before she died, when she died, after she died, and 90 years afterwords.

It is no big deal, there are adventist who don't believe in the Sabbath either, it is no big deal.

Lot of folks have differing opinions, I don't understand why they stay members, am sure there are several other places they can go.

We all have choices.

March 4, 2009

Quote:

2nd Century