Church Cutbacks

[Woody]

Due to the economy ... the church is having to make cutbacks. This is a tough time and it deserves tough measures.

I am going to bring up a discussion that we have had before ... but is needed for these very times.

Instead of cutting pastor's pay and jobs and cutting things such as camp meetings ...

Please Please ... look at the trillions of dollars the church could save by doing away with the un-necessary high level admin. that we have in the name of UNIONS. Just drop all unions. They are not needed. Keep the conferences ... yes. But what good is the Union. If there is any good ... FOLKS ... WE CAN NOT AFFORD IT. We can let the conferences serve the purpose.

Time to downsize ...

[phkrause]

Not sure that would work. But not being a business man I'm not sure that that statement I just made is correct. But will say that upper management will not get cut back. What they will do is lay off Pastors, and have 1 Pastor service more than 1 church, probably 2 or more churches. The answers are never easy. But taking away Pastors and making others thin out is not the correct answer.

pk

[Lineman]

What's the current function of the Union anyway? And why were they created in the first place?

[Woody]

Lineman .... I really don't know. I see no functional purpose for them. Just an added layer of Admin.

[Woody]

Not sure that would work. But not being a business man I'm not sure that that statement I just made is correct. But will say that upper management will not get cut back. What they will do is lay off Pastors, and have 1 Pastor service more than 1 church, probably 2 or more churches. The answers are never easy. But taking away Pastors and making others thin out is not the correct answer.

pk

Yes pk. That is what they do. They reduce your pay and add more churches to your plate. The pastors already have more than one church so adding one more is easy for the leaders to do rather than just taking an axe to their own jobs. And I am referring to the Union positions. They are the ones that need the axe.

[Outta Here]

Church cutbacks...

Sing harmonies with one another and forego the purchase of that new organ.

Clean the carpet one more time instead of replacing it.

Fix the roof.

Turn off the lights in the Sabbath School rooms when they're not in use.

Have families pitch in and take turns cleaning the church instead of paying someone to do it.

Do the same with the mowing and upkeep of the church grounds.

Have cold-dish potlucks and keep the costs of cooking food at the church down.

Have an out-doors Sabbath and don't even turn on the A/C in the church for one week.

Use recycling bins to collect paper and cash it in for money.

Do baptisms in a local lake or river--save money on water and heating costs for the baptismal pool.

Evangelise to get more people (and thus, more money) flowing into the church.

Pay an honest tithe.

Wear leggings in the winter so the thermostat can be kept lower.

Close the windows--reseal them if necessary--in the winter to keep the heat in and the cold out.

Encourage memebers to get their Sabbath school lesson online.

Forget the microphones and lights--sit closer to the pastor.

Carpool to church--donate the extra cash to the "fix the roof" fund.

Do the same things we all have to do in our homes to cut back on expenses. Be sensible; don't be wasteful. With a little care and prayer even the church can make it through the recession.

[Woody]

Church cutbacks...

Sing harmonies with one another and forego the purchase of that new organ.

Clean the carpet one more time instead of replacing it.

Fix the roof.

Turn off the lights in the Sabbath School rooms when they're not in use.

Have families pitch in and take turns cleaning the church instead of paying someone to do it.

Do the same with the mowing and upkeep of the church grounds.

Have cold-dish potlucks and keep the costs of cooking food at the church down.

Have an out-doors Sabbath and don't even turn on the A/C in the church for one week.

Use recycling bins to collect paper and cash it in for money.

Do baptisms in a local lake or river--save money on water and heating costs for the baptismal pool.

Evangelise to get more people (and thus, more money) flowing into the church.

Pay an honest tithe.

Wear leggings in the winter so the thermostat can be kept lower.

Close the windows--reseal them if necessary--in the winter to keep the heat in and the cold out.

Encourage memebers to get their Sabbath school lesson online.

Forget the microphones and lights--sit closer to the pastor.

Carpool to church--donate the extra cash to the "fix the roof" fund.

Do the same things we all have to do in our homes to cut back on expenses. Be sensible; don't be wasteful. With a little care and prayer even the church can make it through the recession.

Hey Aubrey ... While I don't agree with each suggestion ... I do appreciate the practical suggestions. I hope people will read them and suggest some to their church board.

I don't exactly like the idea of cold food nor do I like my body being cold.

And if you are going to make people be cold at church ... you should at least serve them hot food.

I'm not aware of anywhere that you can get money for collecting paper.

I don't think that getting money for our church should be a motivating factor for evangelism.

I certainly don't like the idea of doing away with the microphones. I have a hard enough time not hearing the pastor. Maybe it is years of practice ... I don't know. But we don't want people sleeping because they can't hear her.

Other than that ... I do like your ideas. I wonder if others have more?

[Outta Here]

For information about paper recycling: http://www.paperretriever.com/?id=1

I agree that making money shouldn't be motivation for evangelism. However, if the church body would spend more time evangelising, the money issue might take care of itself. I also don't like being cold, but we can learn to dress more appropriately for the weather and it could save money on the heating and cooling bills.

It's important to really examine where all the wasteful spending is going. When you work on church fundraising and see all the money that's being spent unwisely, it's disturbing. There is wasteful spending at every level of church operations. We each would do well to cut back where we can--whether we are young or old, new member or life-time congregant, volunteer or employee.

I think it was Joash who saw wisdom in getting the whole community involved in restoring the temple--every little bit counts. Even the single mite!

[Woody]

Thanks Aubrey. Good Points.

I checked out your link but could not find any location as to where to take paper and get money.

[CyberGuy]

The church is following the direction of Jethro to Moses.

Moses would be the GC.

The judges over Thousands would be the Unions

The judges over hundreds would be the Conferences

The judges over Tens would be the churches.

The Union also bankrolls with the tithe they get large projects such as building projects etc for schools and churches in its territory. The Division would have to vast a territory to oversee to worry about a single school or church in one conference. A union is one step closer to the territory it oversees. It has more resources to deal with problems in its terrtory.

Unions are not that big. The Pacific Union for instance only has arround 60 employees which is about the size of many of the conferneces at the main conferences office. Cutting them would not save that much money considering what is being cut.

They are cutting about 50 to 60 employees from every conference at various levels.

Attrition is preferred or not replacing those that retire but that is not enough. Our Economy is retracting at an alarming rate. People are withdrawing their bank accounts and keeping tens of thousands of dollars at home for fear the banks will fold. This is adding stress to the banking system which in turn adds stress to the economy and people getting laid off.

Cutting the Unions is no the answer. We need that added level of administration to oversee the conferences and make sure everyone is following polices. The Division would not have the time to do that just as Moses was being overwhelmed with judging the people so the Divisions over see the unions and the unions oversee the Conferences and the Colleges and hospitals within their territory and the conferences oversee the academies and elementary and churches under them.

If you cut the Unions the Divisions would be overwhelmed with the overseeing the colleges and conferences under them. You have to delegate the power so more local levels or the task becomes just to big to work efficiently.

[Woody]

So ... taking an axe to the local pastors is a better alternative? Because it is always the bottom feeders that get killed in protection of the higher ups.

[Woody]

Do you all approve of the camp meetings being axed. Our conference just totally axed campmeeting. Nothing to replace it. Of course ... that just means that more money will be spent ... because now each individual church or regional churches will spend the money on bringing camp meeting more local.

My church is bringing an Andrews professor and several other pastors all from out of state ... to come for our 'local campmeeting'.

Not sure how all that saves money. But that is the 'wisdom' of those above us.

[Cosmin M.]

What do you mean by 'dropping the Unions' ?

[Woody]

Doing away with them. Disbanding. Abolish them.

[Stan]

My experience with the Unions is that they are essential, and it is just a fraction of the total expenses.

Some of the functions, and this one can not be discounted even though some church leaders want to.

Training..

Training of Presidents to be better presidents.

Training of Youth Leaders to be better youth leaders

Training of Trust Directors to be better Trust Directors.

Training of Ministerial folks to be better Ministerial.

That list goes on..

We all need continuing development and training, except the know-it-alls who actually REALLY need the Unions.

The Union provides CPA/CA professional auditing of the Universities, Academies, Industries and Conferences etc

They own/manage the Universities

They provide the Union papers and various other Communication 'things'

They are the entity that those who feel unjustly treated by the Conferences.

Some Unions now are able to do payroll for their conferences, saving $$$

The Unions manage the sessions for the election of Conferences officers etc

They give unsolicited and much needed wisdom to some wacky presidents, and I have seen them develop some in to great leaders.

They give the final approval for the ordination for those recommended by the Conference folks.

In some cases they look after the Health care plans for the employees.

The list goes on and on...

- - - - - - - - -

Wonder which of the above folks would want to cancel?

[Woody]

All of them if it means the alternative which is to do away with pastors on the local level.

May I ask ... How many would want to lose their pastor so that we can keep the Unions?

[Stan]

It can be way more expensive doing this at each local conference. way more.

The solution is not cutting Pastors it is growing the Church.

Camp Meetings are expensive, our cost around $500,000 or more depending on how you measure costs.

It is a shame to cut that, Camp Meetings should be used to train, equip, motivate folks to grow the Church, it is where teens meet each other, and kids can looks around and say "we are a STRONG PEOPLE" A problem with having orators for Church leadership is they have a tendency to thing camp meetings are to 'feed the flock' so they think, well lets just bring in scholarly speakers for the saints, most of them are boring and lives are not changed.... just my opinion...

[Woody]

Appreciate your thoughts Stan. But while you say that cutting pastors is not the answer ... that is what will happen if we don't axe the Unions. Pastors and Campmeetings are what will go if Unions don't.

Yes, it would be nice to have both. But that will not be a reality.

How are you going to grow the church if you are axing the programs such as campmeeting ... that are meant to train the laity to do so?

[Stan]

Having Conferences do those will cost more than they save, way more.

My experience is this, Pastors/Elders/other-Church leaders fear talking about Christian financialbility from the pulpit, and the members lack the blessing, as well as the Church as an institution

One of our Churches has a 4 week series on that every year, this Church has members mostly between 18 - 40 years of age. Last year they had 16 non-members who committed to tithing, and have been blessed because of that. ANOTHER similar church does not do that, for various reasons and there is just a tiny amount of tithe comes from them, yet both want a full time pastor.

Members are robbed because they are not taught/encouraged this.

I doubt if my kids, who are pushing 30, have ever heard a sermon on tithe, or vegetarianism...

[Gerr]

There was a time when church decisions were made by only a handful of people in the GC. EGW thought this was unwise. I am not very clear, but I believe that's why unions and conferences were set up.

[carolaa]

How many would want to lose their pastor so that we can keep the Unions?

That sounds kind of selfish. It's not about what we want; it's about what's best for the church as a whole. We need to be training lay leaders so that the pastors can reasonably handle several churches.

[Woody]

Good point. But the Unions don't do that ... pastors do. And the congregations still want 'their' pastors.

[SivartM]

Perhaps we could keep the campmeetings, pastors, and Unions...

and trust in God to provide.

[Woody]

That would be pie in the sky. We have already lost much of that just in anticipation.

[SivartM]

God's provision is pie in the sky?