Gay threat in Adventist church

[ClubV12]

Much more difficult to identify, censure or disfellowship a "liar" (legalist, gossiper, etc.) than it is to identify and deal with someone who openly declares themselves to be gay. The church manual specifically address' "liars" for instance. Calling for them to be censured or even disfellowshiped after APPROPRIATE measures have been taken to correct the problem. The same applies to gays, that is specifically addressed in the church manual as well. Homesexuality IS a cause for censure or removal from membership, that is clear. A gay lifestyle is NOT OK, it is not sanctioned by the church, period. Unless the GC seeks to change or modify the church manual that fact shall remain. I won't hold my breath thats gonna happen in the near future, if ever.

So how long should the church offer help, counseling, hope etc. while the person remains in denial of the rules? How long before the body of believers takes action against the alcoholic, liar, adulterer, sabbath breaker, divorcee or gay person? Surely at SOME POINT the church has to take a stand on an individual basis to protect their good name? Should the body of believers wait longer for a gay person than a sabbath breaker? An alcoholic? Who decides when enough is enough? As far as new members are concerned, an openly gay lifestyle, a clear violation of marriage vows, an obvious alcoholic, a sabbath breaker will be denied baptism, thus, church membership, as they should be.

...boy do I sound like a legalist, but hey, I'm just reading the rules of the road as written. :)

[fccool]

So how long should the church offer help, counseling, hope etc. while the person remains in denial of the rules? How long before the body of believers takes action against the alcoholic, liar, adulterer, sabbath breaker, divorcee or gay person? Surely at SOME POINT the church has to take a stand on an individual basis to protect their good name? Should the body of believers wait longer for a gay person than a sabbath breaker? An alcoholic? Who decides when enough is enough? As far as new members are concerned, an openly gay lifestyle, a clear violation of marriage vows, an obvious alcoholic, a sabbath breaker will be denied baptism, thus, church membership, as they should be.

...boy do I sound like a legalist, but hey, I'm just reading the rules of the road as written.

May I say that you are getting it kind of backwards. The church is not a bearer of salvation, neither it is a bearer of change. God is in charge of the former, while it is responsibility of the individual for the latter.

You are talking about the church as a club... which you are in while you follow certain rules, and when you don't... you are out.

ACTING OUT ON GAY TENDENCIES is sinful, which IS homosexuality in the Bible. Struggling and wrestling with these IS NOT. One may be considered "openly gay"... someone who is attracted to the opposite gender, BUT it is only a sin if one thinks it's OK to go on with these tendencies.

The problem with church's stand on homosexuality... it that it takes it to be an alcoholism-like thing. You know... you can grow out of it. It's not exactly a good comparison.

There's nothing you can do to make my wife like certain fruit. She despises fruit, but she loves eating junk food... although she knows it's terrible for her. She struggles a lot with this , and many times fails.

One may be openly gay, with understanding that Bible does condemn THE ACT... but not the tendencies. Otherwise, all of us would be doomed.

[olger]

Was it right for Paul to say "Do not eat with a brother who is sexually immoral?" Wasn't that kind of mean-spirited?

(1 Corinthians 5:11).

I heard a person say once that the church is a hospital for sinners. I don't find that illustration particularly accurate because.. the goal of a hospital is to discharge you after making you well. The analogy does have merit however, if we equate the discharge with sending people out to do outreach. Otherwise the church becomes a babysitter for people who don't/won't grow.

Whom do you admire in life? Do you have role models in the church? I hope so. Each of us need people in our lives who have overcome defeat, sin, and destructive habits. The church desperately needs these people, as examples of God's grace. As we are inspired by these individuals, we can turn to God and ask Him to heal our hearts. He will. Then we can reach out to others and encourage them (Hebrews 3:12-13). This is the work of God.

As to the eating habits you described, there are two kinds of eating disorders.

1) When we eat because we are addicted to food, or eating because we 'feel' bad.

2) When we starve ourselves to the point of sickness because we are not feeling loved inside.

Jesus can heal both kinds.

rejoice always,

og

[Gail]

I would like to see more emphasis on the power of God in EVERYONE'S lives, and dependence on Him everyday. I can't get enough of victory stories and think that we ALL have reason to praise God for His gifts to us.

[olger]

AMEN,

Big difference between glorying in sin, and rejoicing in victory.

oG

[ClubV12]

In effect the church is a "club". Certain requirements have to be met to become a "member". Attendance is another matter, within reason, all may attend. While not neccessarily qualifing for membership. Being a member does not come with the assurance of salvation. While one can certainly achieve salvation outside the church it is a much more difficult road. It is better, in most cases but not all, to be aligned with the body of believers in some way, however small it may be.

"Some are to be borne with longer than others, but if one is living in disobedience to the commandments of God, the church must act and must separate them from them. And for other sins it will often be necessary to disfellowship souls if they continue in their sins; yet great care should be used and great patience and forbearance exercised." Manuscript Releases - Volume Nine [Nos. 664-770] (1990), page 196, paragraph 4

[fccool]

Club427... how is the salvation "outside of the church" possible???? People who belong to Christ ARE THE CHURCH. It's not a club or a building... church is the people, and the people are the church.

You can't get saved "outside of the church". Now, there are different understanding of the "church" as a club, where people either belong to... or go it "alone". It's really a ridiculous mentality.

All churches today are man-made institutions that are run by modern means of business organization... which hardly resemble any OT or NT standards. It's probably 90% tradition, because Bible does not give a clear "to do" list outside of the PRINCIPLES of organization. Nowhere does it say that the pastors have to go through college to be ordained. Nowhere does it put the Lord's supper to be done twice a year. These are certain rules based on TRADITION, and nothing more... much of such tradition ironically is derived through Catholic church which we criticize.

You are not voted into the true church of God, neither you can get voted out of it. You are the church if you are God's. It's as simple as that. If you want to play church... it's fine with me, I think we play church too much and forget why we are here.

[fccool]

As far as gay issue... I'll state it again. Being gay is not a sin. It's just like saying "Being diabetic is a sin"... it's not. There are various factors that may be contributing to confusion of the sexual orientation, and could be...

- due to early childhood abuse

- due to hormonal imbalance

- heavy relationship problems and distrust of the opposite gender

There are more... but for whatever reason it is, being a gay is a CONDITION. SEXUAL IMMORALITY IS AN ACT. You can be gay, and refuse to carry out sexually immoral acts. I've had a friend in the past who struggled with heavy hormonal imbalances which made him more emotional and female-like in his mannerisms. He struggles with attraction to the same sex... so you could say that he is gay, but he is not sexually immoral and thus he is not sinning by being gay.

So, please people... be understanding before openly judging who can and can't be in the church. Gay people who are in church have serious struggles and do need to be supported.

[Gail]

Thank you for your clarification, fccool. That is how I have understood it.

Apart from this, I like gay people. I don't care too much anything too ostentatious but I like the colour gays give to the world. Kinda like left-handed people.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Elijah, and welcome to Club Adventist.

I have done a little research on the topic of "homosexuality". Just enough to be informed. I have learned that the term "Homosexuality" was not always around although the behavior has been around for a long time.

I was supprised to find out that gender orientation was invented in the 1800s by someone who had a friend who committed suicide because he was treated badly by others for liking and having sex with another man.

This person Karl-Maria Kertbeny, made up these terms: heterosexuals, homosexuals, monosexualists and pygists.

Before that time men having sex with men was deemed as committing sodomy. The term homosexual was invented to take away the injustices that were being done to those who were doing these things. I think that rather than try to normalize it, which has led to making those who oppose this seem as demons, it should have been dealt with in a different way.

To shorten this up; the point I'm making is that when you make something acceptable which God has not, you then lose the ability to receive His mercy and grace for victory, since what you are doing is "acceptable".

Jesus made a statement that helps me to understand this matter a little better. Mat 19:12 For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.

Men who have not interest in woman are going to be truly the target of Satan and he will make them think that they were born to be with another man. Why?

Here is why I truly believe that Satan works really hard on those who are not interested in or cannot be with the opposite sex.

Isa 56:3 Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the LORD, speak, saying, The LORD hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree.

Isa 56:4 For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;

Isa 56:5 Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.

God can use them in mighty ways that those who are married cannot be used to bring the Gospel to the world. The apostle Paul comes to mind because although he may have been married he certainly did not have his wife with him. She may have dumped him for accepting Christ I don't know.

Just as Satan can cause sickness I believe he can so work on the minds of those who have this temptation to think that they are and have been made that way by God. (To be with the same sex)

I think this whole "homosexual" gender orientation deal is a scam of Satan's to keep those away who could be used by God to further His cause.

This is polictical correctness in full opperation. Find a behavior that is forbidden, normalize it, call those who want to warn against it evil and then force it's acceptance on everyone. The end result of Satans's mercy? Those who are directly caught in that trap get seek no mercy or grace for help in overcoming.

Norman

[Gail]

The gay person who is celibate is still gay, right?

Are we making a difference between people who are gay and celibate and people who are sexually active in a gay manner?

[ClubV12]

I guess the "church" depends on your definition. I agree the church is the body of believers in a broad sense. It is also an organization which has membership standards, salvation does not require membership in the official organization.

E. White was speaking of man who was dissfellowshiped and noted the "church" could not take him back (she did not mention his particular offense). She said, in effect, if he found his way to heaven it would have "to be alone".

In the case of openly gay celibate vs openly gay practicing, each would have to be considered on their individual basis. If they are members they COULD be disfellowshiped. If there not members they could be denied membership.

I choose to believe in the power, the sanctity, the help that is available from the organized and official body of believers legally known as the "Seventh Day Adventist" church. *Membership not required for salvation.

[John317]

The gay person who is celibate is still gay, right?

Are we making a difference between people who are gay and celibate and people who are sexually active in a gay manner?

I believe we should make that difference.

There are SDAs who once practiced "the gay lifestyle" but who no longer consider themselves "gay" in any way at all. They believe that God has given them victory over every aspect of being gay, and believe that they are now heterosexual. This does happen. Yet there are others who, although they are not practicing, still identify themselves as "gay." There's much more to this identity than things that the Bible condemns.

[fccool]

There's nothing wrong with organizing for more efficient operation, although... when you begin to hear statements like:

"General Conference, when in session is the highest authority of God on Earth"...

I don't want to argue with people who wrote that, and who believe that. That's what I'd like to call "Catholic" way of exclusive thinking. Although there is a clear line in the sand of Adventism... that Adventist church does not alone hold the keys to salvation, after talking and listening to certain statements by Adventist pastors... the attitude comes up that Adventist Church is the only true church

There are many issues, such as SDA church members heavily appose marriage to non-member believers, even if the believers are Sabbath keepers. But I'm glad to see some lights of progressive and independent thinking that is based on solid Biblical truth and not tradition mixed with "thus said EGW".

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Quote:

The gay person who is celibate is still gay, right?

No, the person who does not engage in that activity is not gay or homosexual or what ever you want to call them. They are just people like anyone else and have temptations and struggles taht are different than others.

I don't believe in the labling of people like Gay or Homosexual or Lesbian. My point was and is that these labels were made up for some so called good to come out of it, but the end result and bottom line is that if you accept these lables there is no way for a person doing these things to get help from God, who is the only One who can deliver them.

Why would they seek help if they believed they are born to be with the same sex and that they can never change?

It's a deception of Satan so that people with these temptations can not do the work that God has for them to do. I did leave out another class of people in my 1st post; those who are just vile and will have sex with anyone or anything. I am not talking about these people.

Norman

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

fccool said

Quote:

There's nothing wrong with organizing for more efficient operation, although... when you begin to hear statements like:

"General Conference, when in session is the highest authority of God on Earth"...

I don't want to argue with people who wrote that, and who believe that. That's what I'd like to call "Catholic" way of exclusive thinking. Although there is a clear line in the sand of Adventism... that Adventist church does not alone hold the keys to salvation, after talking and listening to certain statements by Adventist pastors... the attitude comes up that Adventist Church is the only true church

I would like to make a statement and say that the Seventh day Adventist church is God's remnant church on earth and that the message we have been given is a part of this movement. This sets us apart from all other churches but also leaves us with a solmen responsibilty of giving this message to the world. We are all called to missionary work whether abroad or at home.

In order to understand this you must look at where this church came from and see that God called this church into existance to bring the message of the Sabbath, State of the Dead, health reform and righteousness by faith among others known as the 3rd angel's message, to light.

Organization is necessary in order to avoid confusion and to avoid going over the same ground and also to avoid conflict about who is to do what.

Sorry to be off topic but I wanted to make that comment.

Norman

[Gail]

Quote:

Why would they seek help if they believed they are born to be with the same sex and that they can never change?

The same argument could be used with the thief, the diabetic, the psychotic. They are just labels that describes an aspect of themselves. We are ALL something.

[fccool]

I would like to make a statement and say that the Seventh day Adventist church is God's remnant church on earth and that the message we have been given is a part of this movement. This sets us apart from all other churches but also leaves us with a solmen responsibilty of giving this message to the world.

As you posted in the previous message, this label "the remnant church" is meaningless to the extend that I know of many atheist who portray Christ to others than most (if not all, including myself) people in my church. So, if your idea of remnant is a "group that follows the commandments of God" better than any other group... I think we are in huge trouble, because we as Adventist tend to swallow camels while point out gnats in other churches.

This kind of goes with this issue of homosexuality. Although God does see homosexuality as opposite to the purpose of the sexual relations, but I could say the same with not loving our neighbors as we do ourselves. And it's ironic that we end up pointing fingers asking others to change, while Adventist church is at near standstill... especially in US where numbers are in near decline. I wonder why?

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Quote:

The same argument could be used with the thief, the diabetic, the psychotic. They are just labels that describes an aspect of themselves. We are ALL something.

Eactly, so long as choice is involved.

Norman

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Quote:

As you posted in the previous message, this label "the remnant church" is meaningless to the extend that I know of many atheist who portray Christ to others than most (if not all, including myself) people in my church. So, if your idea of remnant is a "group that follows the commandments of God" better than any other group... I think we are in huge trouble, because we as Adventist tend to swallow camels while point out gnats in other churches.

This kind of goes with this issue of homosexuality. Although God does see homosexuality as opposite to the purpose of the sexual relations, but I could say the same with not loving our neighbors as we do ourselves. And it's ironic that we end up pointing fingers asking others to change, while Adventist church is at near standstill... especially in US where numbers are in near decline. I wonder why?

There's a difference here. One is that God gives us the name Remnant in order to discribe His people, their calling and their mission. The other that I was referring to was labling for the sake of helping a group of people but the opposite has taken place.

I would encourage you to look at the remnant and not the tares in the church to come to your conclusions and make your comments. There are many faithful, spiritual and godly people in this church and there are many who are not. At this time it appears that the majority are giving this church a bad witness. Not all Israel is Israel however. This is God's remnant church and the message that it carries will not be without victory, neither will His people.

I once left this church and stayed out for 10 years and the one thing that I noticed when I came back and still do, is a lot of the preaching actually discourages the body of Christ and especially the newly baptized in Christ. You hear it quite often and it goes like this, "We are not doing what we should be" "If God were to come now would you be saved?" "We are failing" It's good to examine, but not to tear down.

These kinds of statements being preached in some places week after week can never uplift or enoble our people. There is very little and in some cases no focus on Christ. Guilt is being peddled and sometimes I'm sorry to say it's because the individual preaching thrives on the power trip.

This does not happen everywhere but it does have a negative effect that can spread like leaven. Study the beginings of this movement and what we are called to do and you will also find that the majority of preaching is patterned after the preaching that takes places in churches that do not have a clue what is going on here on earth, do not know whom they worship and have no concept of the importance of the sanctuary and what is taking place there.

This is not to knock anyone but rather to point out that while we have gone off track in some places there is a remnant who have not bowed the knee to baal who know what time it is and whom they worship and what is going on. They also are doing the work of evangelists where they have the priviledge.

over generalization of God's church/people leads to statements that are untrue and damaging to His cause.

Norman

[carolaa]

Guilt is being peddled

Excellent point.