Pro-Abortion still on the aganda!!!

[Tammy]

What is that statement Paul makes about everything being permissible, but not all things beneficial?

I believe in being able to choose. But most people that choose to MURDER go to jail, unless the victim of their murder is a helpless child (often that includes young children after birth).

We can choose, but we had better be aware of the possible consequences. When people "choose" to have sex (that's the pro-choice I'm in favor of) they had better be prepared for the possibility of bringing a child into the world.

I don't understand why more feminists are not concerned about the rights of female fetuses.

I agree, Missionlady.... I find it appalling the stand the SDA Church takes on abortion. It is impossible for the Church to be The Last Day church, because the Last Day church, will KEEP the commandments of God....all of them, not just the 4th one!

[cardw]

That has nothing to do with what I asked.

Why the "such a difficult decision" If what is being aborted is not a child who cares then if it is aborted.

It isn't given any more protection than a wart removal. It is no one's business if you terminate a wart. Is it anyone's business if a child is begin aborted.

I am not going to change anyone's mind. My mind has been made up a long time ago but the reasoning escapes me. A five month old something ceased to be at the hands of the man that would have been "it's" father. This man was sent to prison for manslaughter. How can that be. The mother wanted the child so is that what made this five month old something a child.

If the mother was on her way to abortion clinic what was it she was carrying inside her?

What is sad ,difficult,moral or spiritual about getting rid of an annoyance that is going to complicate you life?

I don't get it

I don't think most people who are pro-choice are pro-abortion. I'm certainly not pro-abortion.

I think this is a very serious decision and requires one to look at many factors. I do not believe a technical definition of life is sufficient to determine harm since a bug is technically alive, but we don't have the same feelings about killing a bug which is much more complex than a group of cells during early pregnancy.

And if we are to take a strict legal approach to the Bible, the Bible does not treat a fetus as a human being, but property. So, technically there is no biblical anti-abortion stance in terms of seeing it as murder.

I also don't believe that there is an agenda to force women to have an abortion. In fact adoption is also presented as an alternative particularly with women who would have a belief that it would be wrong to have an abortion. That, too, would be against the principle of choice.

I think we should also consider the anthropomorphic implications of seeing the fetus as human. That is why abortion does have limits and should have limits.

The problem with removing choice is that the law simply can't address every circumstance. Should we remove the choice when there is clear evidence that a child is going to have severe mental retardation?

Many of these children would die without medical intervention. When we abort the natural process of death we are playing god just as surely as a person who chooses to abort the pregnancy. If there is a law in place calling any abortion murder we have the untenable situation where even brain destroyed fetuses are considered human.

There are going to be problems with many medical decisions where the doctor has to choose between the life of the mother and the life of the child. Doctors could be prosecuted for murder. This would weight their decision toward saving the child to avoid such legal entanglements.

Life is difficult and to reduce decisions like this to a law is simply an oversimplification and frankly an expression of self-righteousness on the part of many in the religious right.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Good grief. Why did *this* dead thread get resurrected?

[doug yowell]

And if we are to take a strict legal approach to the Bible, the Bible does not treat a fetus as a human being, but property. So, technically there is no biblical anti-abortion stance in terms of seeing it as murder.

I think we should also consider the anthropomorphic implications of seeing the fetus as human. That is why abortion does have limits and should have limits.

The problem with removing choice is that the law simply can't address every circumstance. Should we remove the choice when there is clear evidence that a child is going to have severe mental retardation?

Life is difficult and to reduce decisions like this to a law is simply an oversimplification and frankly an expression of self-righteousness on the part of many in the religious right.

On the part of the religious right and every SDA founder who weighed in on this, but of course not on the part of those who support elective abortion on the grounds of choice, right? Deep questions like whether or not it is wrong to kill a perfectly normal unborn child (like John the Baptist)cannot be understood by any but the deepest moralists of this world.OK, so all of us self-righteous simpletons, who oppose abortion on demand,and are incapable of thinking these things thru, need to do what?

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

The problem with removing choice is that the law simply can't address every circumstance. Should we remove the choice when there is clear evidence that a child is going to have severe mental retardation?

Life is difficult and to reduce decisions like this to a law is simply an oversimplification and frankly an expression of self-righteousness on the part of many in the religious right.

On the part of the religious right and every SDA founder who weighed in on this, but of course not on the part of those who support elective abortion on the grounds of choice, right?

[doug yowell]

This is what makes it difficult to have a conversation with you. Did I say that we should abort a child? You are using semantics to misrepresent what I said. A small grouping of cells is not a child. I clearly stated that there should be limits. But these limits should be based on reason, not religious dogma.

.

You create a straw man,call people names and then continue to throw around insults and false accusations rather than attempting a reasonable dialogue.No wonder you find it difficult to have a conversation with me.First, I qualified my question by specifically referring to elective abortion. Did you catch that?Or was that irrelevant? Your continued use of repeating the typical lies about the 99% of those who oppose abortion doesn't make your credibility any more valid. I know of no prolife Christian who believes what you say they believe. Calling people self righteous because they teach that aborting a forming human being (nobody aborts a small group of cells) or an already formed human being,begs the question doesn't it? Do you apply this slam to the Atheists for Life advocates?If you're suggesting that allowing all abortions(choice)because 3% of abortions may involve difficult circumstances then how does that qualify as reason? Attributing to prolifers that which they don't believe or advocate is downright dishonest.Most prolifers,like myself,agree with you that limits should be set. But I don't think it's reasonable to exclude religious beliefs from the reasoning process or call religious convictions on the subject stupid or self righteous.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

This is what makes it difficult to have a conversation with you. Did I say that we should abort a child? You are using semantics to misrepresent what I said. A small grouping of cells is not a child. I clearly stated that there should be limits. But these limits should be based on reason, not religious dogma.

You create a straw man,call people names and then continue to throw around insults and false accusations rather than attempting a reasonable dialogue.No wonder you find it difficult to have a conversation with me.

We can clear this up real quick.

At what point do you believe that abortion is still an option?

[Tammy]

It was such a shock to me when I found out that the largest abortion chain in the US is owned by an Adventist, and that abortion on demand is offered at many of our Adventist hospitals.

What a disgrace! We are doing just what old Israel did - human sacrifices.... But somehow, we still think we are God's last day church....how deceived can we be?

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

It was such a shock to me when I found out that the largest abortion chain in the US is owned by an Adventist, and that abortion on demand is offered at many of our Adventist hospitals.

What a disgrace! We are doing just what old Israel did - human sacrifices.... But somehow, we still think we are God's last day church....how deceived can we be?

Oh.....egads!!!!!! According to Snopes.com there is no record of an Adventist OWNING the "largest abortion chain in the US." See Snopes report The *son* of an Adventist is listed as Agent for Service of Process for Family Planning Associates which operates 18 clinics in California only. (The ASP is defined as: Officer appointed by a corporation to receive legal notices or processes on the corporation's behalf. Also called registered agent. It does not necessarily mean that this person is the OWNER.) Furthermore, seven of those clinics are open on Saturdays...not really the hallmark of an Adventist.

Family Planning Assoc.

According to a pro-life website, "Planned Parenthood is responsible for more than a quarter of all abortions performed annually in the United States." source

I really wish people would check their information before disseminating it as fact...because if you don't, all it is, is gossip. And in perpetuating gossip, one smears the character of another person. Not a nice thing to do. And I believe the Bible has some things to say about gossiping and gossipers. So batten up the outrage and righteous indignation.

And no, I do not support abortion. But I *do* support a woman's right to choose because it's not my business to "play God" and force my beliefs on a woman about whose situation I know nothing.

[Bravus]

And you do support telling the truth and respect for the truth, as I do. Thanks for doing the digging.

[Jeannieb43]

And no, I do not support abortion. But I *do* support a woman's right to choose because it's not my business to "play God" and force my beliefs on a woman about whose situation I know nothing.

Amen.

God created us with free will -- the right to make our own choices. The least we can do is grant our neighbor that same right.

[phkrause]

Originally Posted By: Tammy

It was such a shock to me when I found out that the largest abortion chain in the US is owned by an Adventist, and that abortion on demand is offered at many of our Adventist hospitals.

What a disgrace! We are doing just what old Israel did - human sacrifices.... But somehow, we still think we are God's last day church....how deceived can we be?

Oh.....egads!!!!!! According to Snopes.com there is no record of an Adventist OWNING the "largest abortion chain in the US." See Snopes report The *son* of an Adventist is listed as Agent for Service of Process for Family Planning Associates which operates 18 clinics in California only. (The ASP is defined as: Officer appointed by a corporation to receive legal notices or processes on the corporation's behalf. Also called registered agent. It does not necessarily mean that this person is the OWNER.) Furthermore, seven of those clinics are open on Saturdays...not really the hallmark of an Adventist.

Family Planning Assoc.

According to a pro-life website, "Planned Parenthood is responsible for more than a quarter of all abortions performed annually in the United States." source

I really wish people would check their information before disseminating it as fact...because if you don't, all it is, is gossip. And in perpetuating gossip, one smears the character of another person. Not a nice thing to do. And I believe the Bible has some things to say about gossiping and gossipers. So batten up the outrage and righteous indignation.

And no, I do not support abortion. But I *do* support a woman's right to choose because it's not my business to "play God" and force my beliefs on a woman about whose situation I know nothing.

[doug yowell]

Why doesn't somebody do some real research, rather than looking for a possible technicality to try to make the guilty look innocent and the innocent look guilty? Feldkamp has never denied being the recipient of the financial rewards of the abortion business.And it is common knowledge (and good business practice) for individuals to incorporate. Neither has he attempted to distance himself from the industry.Most (if not all)prolife sources conclude that FPA performs more abortions than even Planned Parenthood,but what's a couple hundred thousand aborted babies among friends? Having his home picketed by the prolife community for the past 5 years has given him ample opportunity to set the record straight regarding his "non-ownership" of the 17 abortion clinics,or to deny his membership in the SDA church.Since the info on the ASP is so readily available it should be no problem to identify who IS the actual owner of FPA.Feldkamp has been a well known member of the Loma Linda community for years. The tragic loss of his children was mourned by all the churches in the area.If, in fact, he is no longer an SDA member, he is certainly endeared in the hearts of it's constituents,unlike those who challenge his commitment to the abortion industry.

[bonnie]

Why doesn't somebody do some real research, rather than looking for a possible technicality to try to make the guilty look innocent and the innocent look guilty? Feldkamp has never denied being the recipient of the financial rewards of the abortion business.And it is common knowledge (and good business practice) for individuals to incorporate. Neither has he attempted to distance himself from the industry.Most (if not all)prolife sources conclude that FPA performs more abortions than even Planned Parenthood,but what's a couple hundred thousand aborted babies among friends? Having his home picketed by the prolife community for the past 5 years has given him ample opportunity to set the record straight regarding his "non-ownership" of the 17 abortion clinics,or to deny his membership in the SDA church.Since the info on the ASP is so readily available it should be no problem to identify who IS the actual owner of FPA.Feldkamp has been a well known member of the Loma Linda community for years. The tragic loss of his children was mourned by all the churches in the area.If, in fact, he is no longer an SDA member, he is certainly endeared in the hearts of it's constituents,unlike those who challenge his commitment to the abortion industry.

I am not going to try to convince either way.It generally is pointless.But when a 5 1/2month "fetus" is killed by the angry father to be by beating the mother and the father goes to prison for manslaughter,I would like to know why. He should have been charged with assault and nothing more,and was but that was separete from the manslaughter.He oonly "killed" a choice.

Not long a ago in MN a man was charged with two counts of vehicular homicide. One count was a "choice' of 8 months unborn.

If women have the right to choose how can another party be tried for murder or manslaughter

If I as a woman can abort a 7 month "fetus" and that 7 month old is only viewed as a choice of ??? WHY

[cardw]

Doug,

Since you haven't answered my question, "When do you think abortion is an option?" I'm assuming that you don't consider any option.

There goes your accusation of the straw man. I think you have realized the difficulty in answering that question, so you seem to have ignored it.

It's a lot more difficult to come to a position when you consider the complex issues this involves, but most fundamentalists are lazy thinkers. That's why they are fundamentalists. You just have to pick a law, claim that the Bible says so, and stop thinking.

[doug yowell]

Doug,

Since you haven't answered my question, "When do you think abortion is an option?" I'm assuming that you don't consider any option.

There goes your accusation of the straw man. I think you have realized the difficulty in answering that question, so you seem to have ignored it.

It's a lot more difficult to come to a position when you consider the complex issues this involves, but most fundamentalists are lazy thinkers. That's why they are fundamentalists. You just have to pick a law, claim that the Bible says so, and stop thinking.

Not so,Rich. I just haven't had the time to get to it. How bout a fair exchange here. If I answer your ? will you reply with your own thoughts on when you believe abortion is an option?As a prolifer, and knowing many which you may consider radical prolifers, I know of no one who has not wrestled with the "hard cases" while arriving at their conclusions.A great number have been personally involved in the abortion of their own children or have been participants in the industry. Highly intelligent anti-abortion advocates have weighed in on these issues,people a lot smarter than you and I (although I realize that I'm probably not on your "hot new prospects" list).While it's no doubt true that there are a small number of prolifers who haven't thought thru their conclusions can't the same be said about pro-choicers? Labeling most fundamentalist, Bible believers as lazy and stupid because they reason their life issues from the Bible seems a little prejudicial,don't ya think? I'll try to check in tonight after work to see your answer.

[cardw]

Not so,Rich. I just haven't had the time to get to it. How bout a fair exchange here. If I answer your ? will you reply with your own thoughts on when you believe abortion is an option?As a prolifer, and knowing many which you may consider radical prolifers, I know of no one who has not wrestled with the "hard cases" while arriving at their conclusions.A great number have been personally involved in the abortion of their own children or have been participants in the industry. Highly intelligent anti-abortion advocates have weighed in on these issues,people a lot smarter than you and I (although I realize that I'm probably not on your "hot new prospects" list).While it's no doubt true that there are a small number of prolifers who haven't thought thru their conclusions can't the same be said about pro-choicers? Labeling most fundamentalist, Bible believers as lazy and stupid because they reason their life issues from the Bible seems a little prejudicial,don't ya think? I'll try to check in tonight after work to see your answer.

I'm willing to turn the rhetoric down a notch and listen to evidence. Now if there are intelligent anti-abortion advocates then you need to name them and outline their position.

What seems reasonable to me is that Pro-Choice allows for limits and still leaves choice available in areas where there is a reasonable understanding of what is not conscious and not a human being.

Anti-Abortion implies that there is no case where abortion is allowed.

Now if that isn't true then enlighten me.

[Tammy]

Why doesn't somebody do some real research, rather than looking for a possible technicality to try to make the guilty look innocent and the innocent look guilty? Feldkamp has never denied being the recipient of the financial rewards of the abortion business.And it is common knowledge (and good business practice) for individuals to incorporate. Neither has he attempted to distance himself from the industry.Most (if not all)prolife sources conclude that FPA performs more abortions than even Planned Parenthood,but what's a couple hundred thousand aborted babies among friends? Having his home picketed by the prolife community for the past 5 years has given him ample opportunity to set the record straight regarding his "non-ownership" of the 17 abortion clinics,or to deny his membership in the SDA church.Since the info on the ASP is so readily available it should be no problem to identify who IS the actual owner of FPA.Feldkamp has been a well known member of the Loma Linda community for years. The tragic loss of his children was mourned by all the churches in the area.If, in fact, he is no longer an SDA member, he is certainly endeared in the hearts of it's constituents,unlike those who challenge his commitment to the abortion industry.

Thank you Doug, the evidence is there for those who want to know the truth....

[Move To The Country Min.]

I know you and others will be very interested in the short video we just filmed this last Thursday, dealing with abortion and life. Athanasios is hitting the main topics right on the head, he is going full steam ahead in love and compassion.

We will be uploading that on our channel and 5 others. I cant wait to have that topic online.

[Tammy]

I do not have TV....so please let me know when I can see it online.

My husband and I just printed a powerful brochure this week......Please check it out and help us get it out to as many members as possible. Thank you!

Abortion & The SDA Church

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

I do not have TV....so please let me know when I can see it online.

My husband and I just printed a powerful brochure this week......Please check it out and help us get it out to as many members as possible. Thank you!

Abortion & The SDA Church

[Guest]

Neither are your home made mantras.

[Tammy]

Anonymous quotes are not powerful!

The powerful part is where the quotes are from....Ministry Magazine.... the fact that this subject is even debated within Adventism, is incredible...who would have ever thought that a Church that teaches the 10 Commandments could be Pro-Choice? I just pray enough people read this brochure and that it causes a big enough stir that forces the Church to change their Pro-Choice stand.

[phkrause]

The powerful part is where the quotes are from....Ministry Magazine.... the fact that this subject is even debated within Adventism, is incredible...who would have ever thought that a Church that teaches the 10 Commandments could be Pro-Choice? I just pray enough people read this brochure and that it causes a big enough stir that forces the Church to change their Pro-Choice stand.

Being pro-choice has no baring on being pro-abortion. I am for choice but am against abortion, so I don't buy that agrument. God created us with a right to choose. And those choice's will be what he will judge's us on.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Tammy

The powerful part is where the quotes are from....Ministry Magazine.... the fact that this subject is even debated within Adventism, is incredible...who would have ever thought that a Church that teaches the 10 Commandments could be Pro-Choice? I just pray enough people read this brochure and that it causes a big enough stir that forces the Church to change their Pro-Choice stand.

Being pro-choice has no baring on being pro-abortion. I am for choice but am against abortion, so I don't buy that agrument. God created us with a right to choose. And those choice's will be what he will judge's us on.

"Thou shalt not Kill".

I do not see room for choice here?