Pro-Abortion still on the aganda!!!

[cardw]

Your reference to the instructions of Ex.21 might be true if you hadn't read so much extra stuff into the text. Even given the take that you give it the obvious Scriptural implication is that the unborn child is non-expendable,that it has inherent value and the person responsible cannot just walk away guiltless by claiming that it is not really human anyhow.The more natural reading of the text strongly suggests that if the baby dies,or suffers physical damage as a result of the "accidental" injury the culprit is to be punished likewise.Notice the "life for life" sentence on an accidental death in this case,no City of Refuge option.----Oops. What did I do wrong on posting this?

No the natural reading of it refers to whether the mother suffers injury or not. A premature birth is a death. They didn't have infant ICUs back then.

[doug yowell]

I did you give you my thoughts. I stated that if we don't allow choice then in our current application of law doctors will have to choose to save a mother and risk being charged with murder.

I said there should be limits on when an abortion can be performed. We can evaluate this on the basis of suffering on the part of both the mother and at the point consciousness or the ability to feel pain by the fetus. These are rational discussions on ethics.

On the other hand you have stated that abortion should not be performed for any reason what so ever. And you stated that I was attacking a straw man.

I asked you to clear this up by stating when you considered abortion acceptable.

Sorry,Rich, maybe I didn't make myself clear or catch your previous position.Perhaps we are not so far apart as we first imagined.I believe that the only time that abortion should be allowed is when the mother's life is being endangered. The potential loss of two lives is an even greater tragedy than the loss of one. This is the position of probably 99.9% or more of all Right to Life Proponents.Common sense should tell us that no one should stand in condemnation of this tragic choice.I must hasten to add, however, that in Western civilization this scenerio rarely,if ever, occurs. With the common use of the C-section and other modern medical technologies such emergencies can be alleviated.They have done in utero surgery to fix other fetal deficiencies.This is not the world of 1971 although almost nobody knows(or seems to care) that the Roe v. Wade ruling overturned a Texas anti-abortion law which allowed abortion for the reason I just stated. In fact, every state that outlawed abortion, prior to RvW.allowed for exceptions and even most that allowed abortion did so with restrictions.

[doug yowell]

What's good for a goose is good for aganda??

[Guest]

What's good for a goose is good for aganda??

.....

[cardw]

Sorry,Rich, maybe I didn't make myself clear or catch your previous position.Perhaps we are not so far apart as we first imagined.I believe that the only time that abortion should be allowed is when the mother's life is being endangered. The potential loss of two lives is an even greater tragedy than the loss of one. This is the position of probably 99.9% or more of all Right to Life Proponents.Common sense should tell us that no one should stand in condemnation of this tragic choice.I must hasten to add, however, that in Western civilization this scenerio rarely,if ever, occurs. With the common use of the C-section and other modern medical technologies such emergencies can be alleviated.They have done in utero surgery to fix other fetal deficiencies.This is not the world of 1971 although almost nobody knows(or seems to care) that the Roe v. Wade ruling overturned a Texas anti-abortion law which allowed abortion for the reason I just stated. In fact, every state that outlawed abortion, prior to RvW.allowed for exceptions and even most that allowed abortion did so with restrictions.

I'm not pro-abortion, but I think a woman should have a choice within the early weeks of pregnancy and in cases where it is clear that there is going to be clear severe mental retardation. These are difficult decisions that are complex and don't need some law that draws a line in the sand to muddle up something that should be private. This is something that needs to be decided between a woman and her doctor.

When I look at the statistics for abortion it appears that Christians have abortions far more than unbelievers. 83% of abortions are done by women who profess to be Christians. It appears that the anti-abortion message is not working very well. Shame rarely does. I would guess that shame is the driving force to motivate Christian women to have abortions.

Non-believers actually have the lowest abortion rate by far!

As soon as we start making laws about this based on religious and political forces we are going to have a whole new criminal class that doesn't need to be there.

If you really want to save lives then Christians need to clean up their own house first. Or maybe if everyone was a non-believer and used birth control rates would go down as well.

[Tammy]

Those are very interesting statistics, can you point me to where they are, online? Thank you!

[doug yowell]

I'm not pro-abortion, but I think a woman should have a choice within the early weeks of pregnancy and in cases where it is clear that there is going to be clear severe mental retardation. These are difficult decisions that are complex and don't need some law that draws a line in the sand to muddle up something that should be private. This is something that needs to be decided between a woman and her doctor.

At best,only about 7% of all abortions fall into this "hard case" category. Most estimates run about 3%.This means that 93-97% of all abortions are done as a birth control method and are irrelevant to a doctor's opinion.Medical doctors are trained to diagnose physical workings they are not experts in fortune telling.And sometimes doctors even get a medical diagnosis wrong. Are you ok with today's laws that justify all abortions, at all stages of pregnancy, in the name of complexity for the small minority? Or do you consider the unborn as not fully human and inherently possessing no right to live? Your post seems to suggest a line in the sand while at the same time arguing against one.

[doug yowell]

When I look at the statistics for abortion it appears that Christians have abortions far more than unbelievers. 83% of abortions are done by women who profess to be Christians. It appears that the anti-abortion message is not working very well. Shame rarely does. I would guess that shame is the driving force to motivate Christian women to have abortions.

Non-believers actually have the lowest abortion rate by far!

As soon as we start making laws about this based on religious and political forces we are going to have a whole new criminal class that doesn't need to be there.

If you really want to save lives then Christians need to clean up their own house first. Or maybe if everyone was a non-believer and used birth control rates would go down as well.

Why the attack on Christians,Rich?First you suggest shame is the driving force that motivates Christian women to abort and then you attempt to inject shame for being dumb enough to be a Christian which leads to the shame that leads to abortion.I thought we were trying to avoid lazy thinking. Even if your stats were right then Christians appealing to Christians to stop aborting their babies would be perfectly appropriate,part of the house cleaning you suggested.But this is not simply a Christian/non-Christian issue. This is a human being issue,right? By the way, have you checked out the Athiests for Life website?

[fccool]

The issue of abortion and Christian stand behind it is a rather silly issue that gets me weary thinking and discussing. It's what I call a "scapegoat cause", simply because it does not require anything but to pass legislation. So, you find Christians lining up behind it as a moral cause while there are hundreds of children dying from starvation worldwide every second.

You really can't stop abortion from occurring by making it illegal. Making theft illegal does not prevent or curb theft in the areas where desperation soars high.

If Christians really stood behind life, there should be some consistency on their position on war, humanitarian aid, fund distribution and direct involvement to help other people. What ends up happening is Christian don't like something, and they protest .

If Christians really stood for something more that the "scapegoat issues"... the perhaps the world would be a better place, because for the price of one anti-abortion campaign they really could save hundreds of real children who are alive and breathing.

Abortion is an issue like obesity is an issue. If people really believed and seen value in life, they would less likely to do it. Christians demonstrate very low level of interest in life, and it's unfortunate.

[bonnie]

The issue of abortion and Christian stand behind it is a rather silly issue that gets me weary thinking and discussing. It's what I call a "scapegoat cause", simply because it does not require anything but to pass legislation. So, you find Christians lining up behind it as a moral cause while there are hundreds of children dying from starvation worldwide every second.

[fccool]

Bonnie,

I understand the typical response of "I wonder what you are doing?", but even if I told you... would it change your mind or make you really and objectively consider the point that I'm trying to make? Logically this is called a red herring technique, where you have an issue presented and you divert it in a different direction to avoid talking about the issue. Let's abstain from such way of discussion of the issues.

I've presented an argument that states that Christians in general don't show a great deal of concern for human life outside of few "special projects". Abortion issue is one of those projects. I can very simply demonstrate to you that you will not change the issue of Abortion by means of passing a legislation or setting up clinics that masquerade as abortion centers for the purpose of changing person's mind (aka... lying for the sake of life).

The reason that I'm bringing about theft issue that you dismiss by once again posing a herring of the "teenage petty theft", is that there is a real correlation between financial stability and crime. Crime is generally a job of last resort. Very few people would say "I want to be a thief". It's not the first option. MOST of these people, given a better option would not do it, as evidenced by the wealthy neighborhoods, where crime such as theft is virtually non-existent.

The point being... instead of improving the conditions that would have less fear of getting pregnant and having a child... Christians today choose to go by means of fear and guilt (In general, there are certainly many exceptions). That certainly does not help anything at all.

So in case of 25% of African born children facing the death by starvation and preventable diseases, somehow that becomes their fault. I think I've pointed out that we spend $4000 monthly on rent for a building that's used 4 times a month. Heck , last year we've spent 14 million in one week just to show how great and organized of denomination we are.

All I'm trying to point out is that our priorities are grossly out of place. If people really seen that we value life, then perhaps there would be less of that what you are describing.

[bonnie]

I understand the typical response of "I wonder what you are doing?", but even if I told you... would it change your mind or make you really and objectively consider the point that I'm trying to make? Logically this is called a red herring technique, where you have an issue presented and you divert it in a different direction to avoid talking about the issue. Let's abstain from such way of discussion of the issues.

[fccool]

Quote:

Call it what you will.It is not diverted to different directions.It is dealing with the accusations you made.You accuse "christians" of doing nothing. Can you back it up.If you have such concerns about "christians" doing nothing it is logical to ask what you are doing besides accusineg.

Bonnie,

I did not accuse Christians of doing nothing. If I did, I'd like you to quote me doing so. Perhaps I've implied that given the enormous amount of resources and political power very little is being done to deal with some of the hardest realities of life ...

and the typical excuse being pushed forward... it's the leader's fault. We're not sending the money.

Why do you think I suggest sending the money in? Sending in the money is a silly solution, which only temporary covers up the problem. The real solutions lie in aiding of development of technology, equal economic policies, and proper education to accomplish the prior two... so that these people would not starve waiting for aid.

It's very hard to carry on a reasonable conversation with you, because you get defensive and personal. I don't know you, so I have nothing against you. I'm discussing issues here. Can you do it in a manner that address the issues, instead of calling me the "accuser without cause".

I can very well demonstrate that 80% of Christian donated funds go to administrative management and denominational maintenance. That's a conservative estimate. It's certainly better to do something than nothing, yet the issue of abortion is the issue of desperate measures.

I've managed ad campaigns for anti-abortion centers, so I'm not simply sitting on the sidelines pointing fingers. I understand how much political power and resources is being thrown in that direction. On the political side of Christianity... it's simply a means of creating a "cause". I know it, and I've observed it. Many of these people care more about the fetus than the actual baby that lives post-abortion...

And that's the reason I'm raising the issue. It's not to "accuse" anyone for doing nothing. It's a real issue that I'd like to raise. You're welcome to ignore it.

[cardw]

Those are very interesting statistics, can you point me to where they are, online? Thank you!

Here is a link that has many more stats including the one on religious affiliation. I can't find the original one I had which was from a pro-life article, but this is the same stats.

STATS on Abortion rates

[cardw]

At best,only about 7% of all abortions fall into this "hard case" category. Most estimates run about 3%.This means that 93-97% of all abortions are done as a birth control method and are irrelevant to a doctor's opinion.Medical doctors are trained to diagnose physical workings they are not experts in fortune telling.And sometimes doctors even get a medical diagnosis wrong. Are you ok with today's laws that justify all abortions, at all stages of pregnancy, in the name of complexity for the small minority? Or do you consider the unborn as not fully human and inherently possessing no right to live? Your post seems to suggest a line in the sand while at the same time arguing against one.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

When I look at the statistics for abortion it appears that Christians have abortions far more than unbelievers. 83% of abortions are done by women who profess to be Christians. It appears that the anti-abortion message is not working very well. Shame rarely does. I would guess that shame is the driving force to motivate Christian women to have abortions.

Non-believers actually have the lowest abortion rate by far!

As soon as we start making laws about this based on religious and political forces we are going to have a whole new criminal class that doesn't need to be there.

If you really want to save lives then Christians need to clean up their own house first. Or maybe if everyone was a non-believer and used birth control rates would go down as well.

Why the attack on Christians,Rich?First you suggest shame is the driving force that motivates Christian women to abort and then you attempt to inject shame for being dumb enough to be a Christian which leads to the shame that leads to abortion.I thought we were trying to avoid lazy thinking. Even if your stats were right then Christians appealing to Christians to stop aborting their babies would be perfectly appropriate,part of the house cleaning you suggested.

[bonnie]

[quote name="fccool

I did not accuse Christians of doing nothing. If I did, I'd like you to quote me doing so. Perhaps I've implied that given the enormous amount of resources and political power very little is being done to deal with some of the hardest realities of life ...[/quote"]

Not sure what you call this.....Christians doing nothing but passing legislation The issue of abortion and Christian stand behind it is a rather silly issue that gets me weary thinking and discussing. It's what I call a "scapegoat cause", simply because it does not require anything but to pass legislation. So, you find Christians lining up behind it as a moral cause while there are hundreds of children dying from starvation worldwide every second

Regardless of the abortion debate there will always be starving dying children. You are not going to stop that.When the aid does not reach the starving children it is a little tough to keep them from dying.The aid is there.

Quote:

You really can't stop abortion from occurring by making it illegal. Making theft illegal does not prevent or curb theft in the areas where desperation soars high.

You can't stop any crime by making it illegal so let's approve all crime

If Christians really stood behind life, there should be some consistency on their position on war, humanitarian aid, fund distribution and direct involvement to help other people. What ends up happening is Christian don't like something, and they protest .

[Tammy]

Originally Posted By: Tammy

Those are very interesting statistics, can you point me to where they are, online? Thank you!

Here is a link that has many more stats including the one on religious affiliation. I can't find the original one I had which was from a pro-life article, but this is the same stats.

STATS on Abortion rates

Thank you!

[doug yowell]

Originally Posted By: doug yowell

At best,only about 7% of all abortions fall into this "hard case" category. Most estimates run about 3%.This means that 93-97% of all abortions are done as a birth control method and are irrelevant to a doctor's opinion.Medical doctors are trained to diagnose physical workings they are not experts in fortune telling.And sometimes doctors even get a medical diagnosis wrong. Are you ok with today's laws that justify all abortions, at all stages of pregnancy, in the name of complexity for the small minority? Or do you consider the unborn as not fully human and inherently possessing no right to live? Your post seems to suggest a line in the sand while at the same time arguing against one.

This is why I asked you to give me when you thought a fetus was a person. I knew that as soon as I gave my position you would stop thinking and start attacking.

]

You start and conclude your arguments with "you've stopped thinking"or "lazy thinking" how does this condescension to those who you think thoughtfully inferior to your own thoughtfulness help in the discussion? Is that what you want the discussion to be about? Who's attacking who? Your own position was not clear to me and that's why I asked the questions I asked you. So I'll ask again,Do you draw the line against abortion anywhere? Once I know your position then I will know how to continue without misrepresenting what you believe.

[cardw]

You start and conclude your arguments with "you've stopped thinking"or "lazy thinking" how does this condescension to those who you think thoughtfully inferior to your own thoughtfulness help in the discussion?

[fccool]

Quote:

You have stated "christians do nothing but protest.That is not a reasonable conversation.It is an accusation you cannot back up.When you claim that as christians we do nothing that is ACCUSATION.I don't know what you do and frankly don't care until you start telling me what I and other christians don't do. That is knowledge you are not privy to.

Bonnie,

This is simply a generalization that IMO is warranted. My larger point as I've went on to expand it for you is that the resources that avaliable to Christianity are grossly misplaced when it comes to the pro-life issues.

People are more concerned about "the cause" than the people themselves, and that what bothers me. The seem to care very little what happens when these fetuses are born... as long as they are born. That's my observation. The abortion talk does not revolve around real solutions, but absolute morality. The rights and wrongs in this case really weigh very little, considering the toll in either case. So, this issue becomes a political bumper sticker on Christian car, rather than anything meaningful.

You hammer on me for criticism and generalization of Christians as being idle when it comes to issue of poverty and economic justice given the resources at their disposal, yet you have no problem to go on and generalize the people who go through the procedure as something that they take very lightly?

While you certainly can't provide education and technology to the rest of the world... the rest of the world are capable of helping itself. What I'm talking about is the parts of the world that can't. And there's plenty of that world that's living on less than a dollar a day. The life and struggle of that world could be greatly alleviated and transformed by the organized religion due to the weight and power that it pulls with it.... yet it's not happening. And what you are saying is in fact that it should not be happening?

[fccool]

PS I do understand that my generalization is rather exclusive of the fine organizations such as ADRA, which is very efficient and extremely helpful. My comments are towards political "strong stands" against something that has little to no real and meaningful solutions backed up by some action attached. It's a bumber-sticker activism.

[bonnie]

Quote:

This is simply a generalization that IMO is warranted. My larger point as I've went on to expand it for you is that the resources that avaliable to Christianity are grossly misplaced when it comes to the pro-life issues.

According to you.That is not gospel.Many people feel education on abortion is critical.

Quote:

People are more concerned about "the cause" than the people themselves, and that what bothers me. The seem to care very little what happens when these fetuses are born... as long as they are born. That's my observation.

That is generally the battle cry of the left or pro-abortion.I don't think you are privy to what most do in their daily lives.Who they help and to what extent.I don't know what you do and mostly do not care,until you start rendering your judgements on those like myself that do oppose abortion.You haven't a clue what I or many,many others do.

You must be ignorant of the many groups that not only publically oppose abortion but are very active in putting together complete layettes for the newborn,necessities like cribs etc,offers of babysitting to relieve the young new mother.We have in our area churches that also supply at no cost suitable clothing for the mother if she chooses to work.

Quote:

The abortion talk does not revolve around real solutions, but absolute morality. The rights and wrongs in this case really weigh very little, considering the toll in either case.

Right and wrong always matter.What would you suggest is a real solution.The final solution of course is abortion.

Quote:

So, this issue becomes a political bumper sticker on Christian car, rather than anything meaningful.

And you of course know that those that may have a bumper sticker do not do anythng meaningful.How have you come by that knowledge?

Quote:

You hammer on me for criticism and generalization of Christians as being idle when it comes to issue of poverty and economic justice given the resources at their disposal, yet you have no problem to go on and generalize the people who go through the procedure as something that they take very lightly?

You do not know which christians or anyone for that matter are idle and who is not.

Quote:

While you certainly can't provide education and technology to the rest of the world... the rest of the world are capable of helping itself. What I'm talking about is the parts of the world that can't. And there's plenty of that world that's living on less than a dollar a day. The life and struggle of that world could be greatly alleviated and transformed by the organized religion due to the weight and power that it pulls with it.... yet it's not happening. And what you are saying is in fact that it should not be happening?

No in fact I have not said it shouldn't happen.We as a religion or country cannot cure the ills of third world nations,not on this earth we won't.However we are each responsible for what we do.I am not responsible for what you do.

You do know that you can give all you have except what you need to survive to different org and by doing so support entire families.Have you done so? Till you as one individual have given till it hurts you are not in a position to tell me what I must do.Or more to the point tell me what I am not doing

[fccool]

Bonnie,

Using your mentality:

1) You have no idea what I've done, who I've helped and what I do in my day to day life.

2) You are in no position to tell me who I should and should not judge, and whether I should or should not give my view on certain things that I'm certainly entitled to.

3) Have a great day :)

[bonnie]

Bonnie,

Using your mentality:

1) You have no idea what I've done, who I've helped and what I do in my day to day life.

2) You are in no position to tell me who I should and should not judge, and whether I should or should not give my view on certain things that I'm certainly entitled to.

3) Have a great day

You are right,I have no idea what you have done and who you have helped.If you recall I did not say you did not do anything except be against those that are anti-abortion.You however did make that statement concerning those anti-abortion.

Nor would I say what you do is meanignless if you had a certain bumper sticker on your car.

Giving a viewpoint is much different than passing judgement on those you do not know.Isn't there something in scripture about those who judge others? I was sure there was.Oh well,maybe does not apply to you.

When you find a way to cure the ills of poverty on this earth

and stop the reasons for abortions let me know.

In the meantime I will plug along helping those I can with as much as I can