National Parks will now allow loaded guns.

[oldsailor29]

Originally Posted By: oldsailor29

Carrying a weapon will contribute to one's peace of mind.

On the other hand you carrying a weapon wll definitely not contribute to my peace of mind.

And the more people there are carrying weapons for their peace of mind, then the greater will my peace of mind decrease exponentially.

Graeme

that's how the would be burglers felt when they saw my friend's daughter through the window of her house, holding her 12GA shotgun. They had to run away in order to restore their peace of mind. That's the way all criminals feel about law abiding citizens owning weapons. And that's the way tyrannical government people feel about it too. Buy a weapon. It is the right thing to do. Jesus said so.

Luke 22:36

[Planey]

Buy a weapon. It is the right thing to do. Jesus said so.

Absolutely not.

If that becomes a requirement to be a Seventh-day Adventist then count me as an infidel. In many ways I think Buddhism is a lifestyle that enables one to co-exist with other inhabitants of this planet (human and animal) in peace more than any other. Even Christianity. Especially Christianity.

I am of course looking at Christianity as it exhibits itself in the world today and historically.

Graeme

[oldsailor29]

I've heard this before. My sister-in-law said, "I don't care what Jesus said, guns are bad and I ain't gonna have one." I was appalled the first time I heard this "I don't care what Jesus said" attitude. Someone once told me that if I was in heaven, he didn't want to be there. I hope he changes his mind about that, because with that exclusionary attitude, it won't matter if I'm there or not, he won't be. Now I have come to the realization that any who refuse to follow Jesus don't have to become infidels. They already are. Fortunately, Jesus came to save all sinners, and I believe He will.

[Planey]

Now I have come to the realization that any who refuse to follow Jesus don't have to become infidels. They already are.

Right on. oldsailor29.

I have no doubt that I am an infidel by the standards of many a Seventh-day Adventist. To be totally honest it doesn't concern me a real lot.

Many (like yourself, apparently) have a very clear-cut idea of what it means to "follow Jesus", and if you don't rigidly follow their notion then, hey presto!, you are an infidel.

You may have been following the thread in "Theological Talk" regarding whether God is a Creator or a Destroyer. One of the main arguments given there is that we know God's character from the whole Bible, and this character is incompatible with Him being a destroyer. I believe we have enough information of Christ's character to know for sure that he would not carry a weapon himself. And neither will I. I am sure that the verse you quoted must have an alternative meaning when taken in context. Or maybe He knew the weakness of his disciples and made allowance for this weakness.

By the way, is there any indication in the rest of the NT that any of the apsotles were in the habit of carrying weapons of any sort?

Graeme

[GreatLakesGramma]

Interestingly, I trust most legal gun owners more than I do the cops. Those guys and gals are too imbalanced, if you ask me.

Some of them are, definitely. Some people become cops specifically because they want power over other people, and to use that power for their own purposes. Too bad they don't screen those people out before they ever let them into police academy.

A boy that sexually harassed my daughter when they were teens told her, and her brothers, many times, after he got in trouble for harassing her, that when he becomes a policeman, he is going to follow her around giving her tickets. He is an MP in the army now, and when he gets out, will probably apply to join the police force. There are too many like him on the police force.

Old Sailor, I don't own a gun, and I don't plan on it. I couldn't hit the side of a barn if I had one, so it wouldn't be safe for me to use it. And I have small grandchildren and wouldn't want to endanger them. They are the type you can't hide anything from, and no hiding place is too high for them to climb to.

But I've seen guns that shoot little tear gas canisters, and I'd like to have one of those. Then I wouldn't need to worry about the dog on the corner that threatens me when I walk past his house, nor about any two-legged varmints that might come along while I'm walking along that isolated country back road. Not that I really worry now. God has protected me from one threat or another numerous times on my walks.

[oldsailor29]

Originally Posted By: oldsailor29

Now I have come to the realization that any who refuse to follow Jesus don't have to become infidels. They already are.

Right on. oldsailor29.

I have no doubt that I am an infidel by the standards of many a Seventh-day Adventist. To be totally honest it doesn't concern me a real lot.

Many (like yourself, apparently) have a very clear-cut idea of what it means to "follow Jesus", and if you don't rigidly follow their notion then, hey presto!, you are an infidel.

You may have been following the thread in "Theological Talk" regarding whether God is a Creator or a Destroyer. One of the main arguments given there is that we know God's character from the whole Bible, and this character is incompatible with Him being a destroyer. I believe we have enough information of Christ's character to know for sure that he would not carry a weapon himself. And neither will I. I am sure that the verse you quoted must have an alternative meaning when taken in context. Or maybe He knew the weakness of his disciples and made allowance for this weakness.

By the way, is there any indication in the rest of the NT that any of the apsotles were in the habit of carrying weapons of any sort?

Graeme

Of course Jesus wouldn't need a weapon. He defended Himself several times by just disappearing from the scene.

And of course an alternate meaning is always the first thing people look for, who do not want to accept what it says.

And I would say that one sure indication Peter had a weapon, was when he cut off the officer's ear.

No, I have not been closely following the thread about God being a creator or destroyer. I just read enough of it to determine that it is a silly thing to argue about. Isaiah said God created both good and evil, and that settles it for me.

I would never judge anyone as an infidel. Not for me to say, but people do put themselves into that category. Certainly, having a different interpretation of a Bible text does not make anyone an infidel. I think the real infidels are those who oppress others, and try to take away their God-given freedom. Of course, to do that, the oppressors must disarm their victims. That seems to be the intention of our government. Enslavement of the people seems to be where we are going. The greatest oppressor of all is Satan, and all tyrannical oppressive people are his tools. I would never say that anyone is an oppressive tyrant infidel, unless they wanted to take away people's God-given right to protect their life, liberty, and property. And I do not really believe you fall into that category. I could be wrong, but I think you are someone who wants everyone to be safe. I want that too. But anyone who takes away a weapon, is then obligated to stand between the disarmed and the oppressor. This is impossible, which is why we need to protect ourselves. I cannot fight off evil men without help, so the most logical solution for me was Smith and Wesson. For $500.00 I have reasonable protection for the rest of my life, and you don't have to protect me.

[oldsailor29]

Old Sailor, I don't own a gun, and I don't plan on it. I couldn't hit the side of a barn if I had one, so it wouldn't be safe for me to use it. And I have small grandchildren and wouldn't want to endanger them. They are the type you can't hide anything from, and no hiding place is too high for them to climb to.

But I've seen guns that shoot little tear gas canisters, and I'd like to have one of those. Then I wouldn't need to worry about the dog on the corner that threatens me when I walk past his house, nor about any two-legged varmints that might come along while I'm walking along that isolated country back road. Not that I really worry now. God has protected me from one threat or another numerous times on my walks.

GreatLakesGramma, Maybe you should take a gun safety course. And to keep it away from the children, you either have to carry it or lock it away. When people do not follow the rules of gun safety is when accidents happen. You would need the course even for one of those tear gas guns. And you would need to practice. A girl was killed by one of those little tear gas canisters in nearby Boston when a policeman fired it in the wrong direction.

[carolaa]

How about just some mace for those of us who don't like guns? I would never trust myself with a gun, but I do think citizens have every right to own them. They are a great deterrent to crime. In Texas, people will not get in any kind of trouble for shooting intruders. I feel more safe knowing there are concealed carriers around me. The police may get there too late.

[Key Guy]

When you cut away the fat, everyone considers some kind of weapon to protect themselves and their family. I'm seeing teargas mentioned here. Some no doubt have a baseball bat behind the bedroom door or under the bed. Some carry a knife, others a gun. I have a friend who relies on his ability to use Judo or some sort of physical self-defense moves.

It doesn't matter to me what a person does for protection as long as it gives the potential victim an upper hand over the bad guy. Victims can only be victims if the bad guy wins.

I personally prefer a firearm because it's the most effective 'close-quarters' weapon. Nothing works better to reach out and touch someone. Nothing works better as an equalizer. And let's not forget the threat of dogs that have no ability to reason when in a mad state.

For a Christian perspective on self defense, I recommend "Shooting Back: The Right and Duty of Self-defense" by Charl Van Wyk (available on Amazon). Van Wyk is a South African Christian who was placed in the middle of a church shooting and fought back, saving many lives. His book is very helpful in providing food for thought.

[Bravus]

Can someone remind me of Jesus' reaction when Peter used the weapon he was carrying?

[Bravus]

Luke 22:

35Then Jesus asked them, "When I sent you without purse, bag or sandals, did you lack anything?"

"Nothing," they answered.

36He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. 37It is written: 'And he was numbered with the transgressors'; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment."

38The disciples said, "See, Lord, here are two swords."

"That is enough," he replied.

So, 2 swords were 'enough' for a room of 13 men. I think I'll be OK with out one.

We might want to think of some of the differences between a sword and a gun, too... it's quite easy to kill yourself or someone else accidentally with a gun, for example, but *really* difficult with a sword.

I'm not making a strong argument in any particular direction, but I think you might be making this instruction from Jesus a little stronger than it really is, right there in the text, oldsailor.

[oldsailor29]

Luke 22:

So, 2 swords were 'enough' for a room of 13 men. I think I'll be OK without one.

We might want to think of some of the differences between a sword and a gun, too... it's quite easy to kill yourself or someone else accidentally with a gun, for example, but *really* difficult with a sword.

I'm not making a strong argument in any particular direction, but I think you might be making this instruction from Jesus a little stronger than it really is, right there in the text, oldsailor.

Yes well Bravus, you may be right, that I am making the argument for a weapon too strong. But a sword would not be a useful weapon now, as it was then. and if you are in a group of a half dozen or so, and one of that group is armed, I agree with Jesus, that would be enough.(I always agree with Jesus.) I would even say one out of ten would be enough. And I wouldn't want someone who doesn't know how to handle a weapon to have one. But when you are with a group of fellow Christians, do you think ten percent of them are armed? If not, I think we ought to be a little stronger in our emphasis on this text. Once ten percent who can safely handle a weapon have one, then we can say with Jesus, "it is enough." But who travels now in groups of that size? I mostly travel alone, or with my wife. And I think being able to handle a weapon safely and having one is important for me in either situation. But no one should have a weapon who is not competent with it, or who is uncomfortable with it. And of course, in some neighborhoods, ten missionaries with one weapon would be poorly armed. But the main point here in our society is that carrying a weapon is a God-given right and a responsibility.

Also, I think it would be sort of humorous if say 50 of our congregation came to church armed every Sabbath. lol But I wouldn't feel threatened or fearful about it. Actually, I don't carry a weapon, but I think people who do not hate weapons should be prepared to carry, if situations arise which indicate the need. So far there hasn't been an incident of this type in our neighborhood, but if there is, I am prepared to act accordingly, and start carrying.

The sermons of Jesus are applicable on many levels, and it just occurred to me that He said, "Blessed are the peacemakers." And I remembered "Colt" made a single action revolver which was known as the peacemaker. May the Lord continue to bless the peacemakers.

[oldsailor29]

Can someone remind me of Jesus' reaction when Peter used the weapon he was carrying?

Yes well, it was not the purpose of Jesus to resist His death at that time. Earlier in His ministry, Jesus did act defensively on several occasions. He became lost in the crowd or disappeared from His enemies. Maybe we could do that too, but I wouldn't plan on it.

[Key Guy]

We might want to think of some of the differences between a sword and a gun, too... it's quite easy to kill yourself or someone else accidentally with a gun, for example, but *really* difficult with a sword.

Old Sailor was kind in calling people that accidentally kill themselves or others 'incompetent'. I have a stronger word to describe them.

I can counter the anti-armed Christian argument with the point that we are obligated to protect our neighbors, too, if we love them like God does. If Adventists are encouraged to become involved in the community by serving in the fire service or in EMS, Lion's Club, Rotary, Kiwanis, blood banks, etc, then those that CHOOSE to serve their community by being armed by carrying in public should be encouraged, or at least be shown gratitude for their caring attitude.

BTW, It's not publicized, but I know of conferences that are fine with having legally armed members involved in church security during services. Churches are seeing the light after noting what other congregations have suffered through.

[jasd]

Quote:

Quote:Bravus

36He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. 37It is written: 'And he was numbered with the transgressors'; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment."

Let’s see, it seems that the prescription of going forth two by two – as before – is implied in St Luke’s recollection... So, given the assessment of the passage submitted below, one asks, was Jesus then speaking in the collective? that is,

...the sharing of two purses or two bags is “enough” for the Disciples to share? as they part two by two or singly? Sense of passage proscribes this line of thought...

Quote:

Quote:Bravus

38The disciples said, "See, Lord, here are two swords."

"That is enough," he replied.

So, 2 swords were 'enough' for a room of 13 men. I think I'll be OK with out one.

I’ve noticed that Writ sometimes better harmonizes when we digress a bit from a strict and only transliteration. For example:

Strong’s #2425; hikanos

sufficient in ability, i.e. meet, fit

So, from the same source we find that Jesus Christ may have, when He saw those two swords brandished – “Oy vayed!” and – disregarding those ‘homemade butcher knives’, without further adieu, declared them sufficient. However, depending upon the quality of the garments owned and later sold – the Disciples may have had shekels enough to purchase

genuine second-hand (or, ‘previously-owned’) Roman swords.

>>We might want to think of some of the differences between a sword and a gun, too... it's quite easy to kill yourself or someone else accidentally with a gun, for example, but *really* difficult with a sword.<<

For the bloke who kills himself accidentally – mebbe that’s a blessing in disguise in that it, obviously, improves the gene pool. :-(

“someone else accidentally...” Okay, we get rid of sleeping pills, alcohol, anger, swimming pools, fats and sugar, motorcycles, SUVs and those coming greenie ricecookers on wheels, etc. Yes?

>>I'm not making a strong argument in any particular direction,<<

There ain none but Jesus Christ’s :-)

Per the Thread Topic: who, in this day and age of wingnuts-on-steroids out there (pardon-m-oi my irrationality), but what kind of guy takes his family across country without an equalizer ‘riding shotgun’, as it were? That includes National Parks...

Bless that family-carin’ scofflaw who scoffs in and upon the right issue. Safety first, peace can come later.

__________________________

Gd created all men equal. Sam Colt made them equal.

[Ted Oplinger]

There is a time and a place for everything under the sun. This includes self-defense and the laying down of arms. How to tell the difference? God tells us.

I cannot help but notice the OT contains the original second amendment: every time Israel was taken over by a foreign power and enslaved, the people of God lost their right to bear arms. No swords, nor spears. Nothing to defend themselves. Everytime God freed His people, they were allowed (and, I might dare say, expected) to provide means for self defense. Even in their decline, they kept enemies out with the weopons of the day.

Fast foward a few thousand years. Whether we choose to learn how to handle arms (and also non-armed combat - martial arts) is our choice. Many Christians do have the conviction that being able to defnd family, neighborhood, and nation is a God-given responsibility, wherever they are (even in a national park). I happen to be one of them.

As far as it being hard to slay one's self with a sword...perhaps the quaint old phrase "fall on one's sword" might ring a bell?

Then how about this little nugget from 1 Samuel 31:4, 5 "Then Saul said to his armor bearer, "Draw your sword and pierce me through with it, otherwise these uncircumcised will come and pierce me through and make sport of me." But his armor bearer would not, for he was greatly afraid. So Saul took his sword and fell on it. When his armor bearer saw that Saul was dead, he also fell on his sword and died with him."

Yikes!

When rational thought is gone, a person can be convinced it's justifiable to do just about anything, with anything. Evidence Saul...and he was a king!

It would appear that it takes as much to "psyche" one's self to pull a sword into the body as it does to pull the trigger or make the jump.

So much for the irrational hysteria surrounding guns...

I went through a mandated suicide response program not too long ago. It seems that it is taken for granted that anyone buying a firearm is at risk for suicide. Nice little scaremongering there. The presenter was not too happy when I spoke up and stated that it should be and out-of-character acquisition, with no triggering self-defense reason. Not to be deterred, she went on to say, "Suppose a hunter went and bought a machine gun..."

Oy!

For the pacifist: remember, this is a very unsafe world. Those who choose to make use of the means of self-defense aren't violence-crazed sinners bent on bloodlust and destruction of all that is decent. Some of us Christians are simply convinced the best gun control is a properly aimed firearm...

Gotta roll...caused enough trouble for one thread...

[phkrause]

I wouldn't say that Ted, pretty good post from what I could read.

pk

[Cosmin M.]

Most shootings: places that allow guns to public. (Ex. USA,Germany,and I think Canada.)

Least Shootings: places where guns are illegal to all public. (I only know one, Romania.)

[GreatLakesGramma]

And you have reputable sources to back up this claim Cosmin? Or is it just your own opinion?

I would guess that a much greater factor in the difference between the places you mentioned is how quickly and effectively the laws are enforced, and how serious the consequences are. Singapore has the lowest crime rate in the world. The reason is because justice is swift and severe. I have read that if anyone is caught with illegal drugs, they are shot on the spot.

[Tammy]

There is a time and a place for everything under the sun. This includes self-defense and the laying down of arms. How to tell the difference? God tells us.

I cannot help but notice the OT contains the original second amendment: every time Israel was taken over by a foreign power and enslaved, the people of God lost their right to bear arms. No swords, nor spears. Nothing to defend themselves. Everytime God freed His people, they were allowed (and, I might dare say, expected) to provide means for self defense. Even in their decline, they kept enemies out with the weopons of the day.

Fast foward a few thousand years. Whether we choose to learn how to handle arms (and also non-armed combat - martial arts) is our choice. Many Christians do have the conviction that being able to defnd family, neighborhood, and nation is a God-given responsibility, wherever they are (even in a national park). I happen to be one of them.

As far as it being hard to slay one's self with a sword...perhaps the quaint old phrase "fall on one's sword" might ring a bell?

Then how about this little nugget from 1 Samuel 31:4, 5 "Then Saul said to his armor bearer, "Draw your sword and pierce me through with it, otherwise these uncircumcised will come and pierce me through and make sport of me." But his armor bearer would not, for he was greatly afraid. So Saul took his sword and fell on it. When his armor bearer saw that Saul was dead, he also fell on his sword and died with him."

Yikes!

When rational thought is gone, a person can be convinced it's justifiable to do just about anything, with anything. Evidence Saul...and he was a king!

It would appear that it takes as much to "psyche" one's self to pull a sword into the body as it does to pull the trigger or make the jump.

So much for the irrational hysteria surrounding guns...

I went through a mandated suicide response program not too long ago. It seems that it is taken for granted that anyone buying a firearm is at risk for suicide. Nice little scaremongering there. The presenter was not too happy when I spoke up and stated that it should be and out-of-character acquisition, with no triggering self-defense reason. Not to be deterred, she went on to say, "Suppose a hunter went and bought a machine gun..."

Oy!

For the pacifist: remember, this is a very unsafe world. Those who choose to make use of the means of self-defense aren't violence-crazed sinners bent on bloodlust and destruction of all that is decent. Some of us Christians are simply convinced the best gun control is a properly aimed firearm...

Gotta roll...caused enough trouble for one thread...

Excellent post, Ted! I'm with you 1000% I looked to see where you are from, and sure enough - TEXAS! I wish more SDA's could see the light on this subject...

[Cosmin M.]

It is my opinion. Why? Well I saw on the news, when I went to Romania, that this 29 year old was arrested for having possession of a gun. Plus I went to pretty much every type of store in Romania, no guns, no hunting guns either. Only fishing gear.

I don't know about drugs though....

[GreatLakesGramma]

So, how does that tell you how many shootings there are? Did they say something about that too on that particular show?

I have read it in the news, here in the US, that crime rates drop where guns are legal. But it isn't guns that kill people, it's people who kill people. If they don't have guns they use other things. My best friend's ex-husband tried to strangle her twice.

I read a few days ago of a woman who is living in fear because her ex-husband is getting out of prison, and has vowed to kill her and her two teenage daughters. He went to prison 15 years ago for abusing her nearly to the point of death, using pliers, a broom handle, and a belt. She is permanently disabled and in constant pain. I'm sure when he finds her, he will find a way to kill her even without a gun. If I were her, I would want to have a gun, because it's the only way she would be able to protect herself when he does show up, and even that may not be enough to save her and her daughters.

[missionlady]

It is my understanding that the law doesn't go into effect until next February (it was already supposed to be law-passed by Bush, but that was one of the laws Obama overruled as soon as he got power, but since then it was attached to something else and passed).

Hunting in National parks is still illegal. A famous Iditarod musher was recently punished for taking a moose within Denali. He has claimed his innocense. He lives in the park and used his GPS to camp outside the park to hunt.

I agree with the idea of the crazies in the parks and everywhere else. Think of Virginia Tech. THat tragic massacre could have been ended quickly if one student or teacher had a gun, instead of all those people being sitting ducks.

Where I live there are crimes (most big cities probably have more, though). There is a large military presence here and probably most of them carry when off duty in town and in the countryside. Many citizens of this state carry on a regular basis.

I would not want to be in the woods or wilderness without a weapon or someone that has one. The moose and bear and wolf population of this state may be near the people population. Don't quote me on that--I have no idea. But the point is that I would not have wanted to go outside my in-town apartment last week without a weapon, since we had a black bear roaming around our parking lot and courtyard. Many times we have moose and I have heard of reports of brown bears-including a couple weeks ago, a brown bear and her two cubs just behind our apartment.

I didn't grow up with guns, so I am not that comfortible with them. But I want my daughters living in our woods north of here to have one to protect themselves and our dogs from crazy people and wildlife. (The winter before last there was a rash of wolves eating pet dogs.)

It's as with many other things---in a perfect world...

But this is not a perfect world and we must deal with it.

I believe we need to each find and determine for ourselves what is the balance of trusting God to work everything out and what God wants us to DO.