The Rapture Explained

[jasd]

>>I have yet to find a "Jesus descended to earth in parousia with the saints still suspended" in all of scripture.<<

Exactly, the saints will return to earth with Jesus Christ to begin the millennial reign.

Quote:

Quote:jasd

Zech 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives,

What “day” is Zechariah speaking of in the above? Is not Zechariah speaking of the Parousia – that day of much destruction?

>>The same one we see in Rev 21 after the millennium - where the New Jerusalem comes down out of heaven from God and lands on earth.<<

Disabuse me should I err, but did you in the above liken the “day of the LORD” to that day wherein the New Jerusalem descends from Gd out of heaven? I don’t think one can bring Revelation 21 into view when expositing Zechariah 14; for instance,

take verse 5 chapter 14 of Zechariah – “And ye shall flee [to] the valley of the mountains...”

Revelation portrays a “casting into a lake of fire” rather than a flight to valleys and mountains.

[BobRyan]

>>

"In John 14 >>(Notice all the location terms Christ uses in John 14 to convey the point without fail.)<<

No one is attempting to refute that Jesus Christ went to heaven and is now with the Father upon His throne; that being so in no way supports the notion that we will be likewise going there après Parousia. That said, and speaking of location, what of that of verse 28 chapter 14?

“I go away, and come [again] unto you.” Note: not “for you”, but “unto you”.

[BobRyan]

The bottom line is that given the setup/context in John 13 for the John 14 statement about Christ "going to heaven" - unbiased readers will find it abundantly clear that His followers -- would also go to heaven. “Where I am going you cannot follow Me now, but you shall follow Me afterward.”

the massive amount of work that it takes to rewrite this out of the text is living proof that the natural reading of the text is correct. It also means that you have to "already want/need to rewrite the text" before you even come to it - to even begin to engage in all of those rewrite girations.

in Christ,

Bob

[Beryl]

Hi, Bob. I have only just come to this forum, and I appreciate how you are straightening out this matter.

Read in context (not a bit of a text here and another bit there) the Bible is very clear about the coming of Jesus, the resurrection of those who have died believing in Jesus, the millenium in heaven, the destruction of Satan and all of his followers, and the descent of the New Jerusalem, and the setting up of God's eternal kingdom on this earth.

It is also very easy to have a pre-conceived idea which is contrary to the Bible, and find enough bits of Scripture here and there and put them all together to fit what seems to be an explanation fitting one's views.

Scripture should never be studied to prove something that a person believes. Study of Scripture should always be proceeded by a sincere prayer for guidance, and a willingness to accept that our preconceived ideas might be wrong.

Thank you,

God bless,

Beryl

[oldsailor29]

Hi, Bob. I have only just come to this forum, and I appreciate how you are straightening out this matter.

Read in context (not a bit of a text here and another bit there) the Bible is very clear about the coming of Jesus, the resurrection of those who have died believing in Jesus, the millennium in heaven, the destruction of Satan and all of his followers, and the descent of the New Jerusalem, and the setting up of God's eternal kingdom on this earth.

Thank you,

God bless,

Beryl

Very good Beryl. I think this is what we SDAs teach, and I see no reason to believe our teaching on this matter is flawed. I would allow for one exception though. I am thinking that maybe the "every eye shall see Him" text might not mean every living being, but might mean every discerning eye. This would harmonize so well with the "meeting in the sky" being known only to those who went.

[BobRyan]

Hi, Bob. I have only just come to this forum, and I appreciate how you are straightening out this matter.

Read in context (not a bit of a text here and another bit there) the Bible is very clear about the coming of Jesus, the resurrection of those who have died believing in Jesus, the millenium in heaven, the destruction of Satan and all of his followers, and the descent of the New Jerusalem, and the setting up of God's eternal kingdom on this earth.

It is also very easy to have a pre-conceived idea which is contrary to the Bible, and find enough bits of Scripture here and there and put them all together to fit what seems to be an explanation fitting one's views.

Scripture should never be studied to prove something that a person believes. Study of Scripture should always be proceeded by a sincere prayer for guidance, and a willingness to accept that our preconceived ideas might be wrong.

Thank you,

God bless,

Beryl

Beryl - thank you for those kind words and welcome to the forum.

I have to give JASD credit for something before I leave that point. Among the Premillennial groups (those who believe Christ's literal 2nd coming is before the 1000 years of Rev 20) there are pre-trib, mid-trib and post-trib groups. We are in the post-trib group.

But whenever you tell a Christian of another denomination that Adventists are "post-trib" they immediately think that we mean we believe in "The Big Bounce" where saints are caught up to meet Christ in the air -- only to turn right around and softly land back on earth again.

The reason they do that - is that there is a very popular form of non-Adventist post-tribbers that believes just as JASD has stated. And the reason everyone is happy with it - is that "the end result" is the same as the pre-trib and mid-trib... namely that there is a 1000 year reign of the saints with Christ here one earth INSTEAD of the "desolate earth" teaching of scripture.

In the pre-trib view - the saints go to heaven for 7 years and the John 14 promise is "fulfilled"

In the mid-trib view - they go to heaven for 3.5 years - and John 14 is for them "fulfilled"

In their post-trib view - the saints don't go to heaven at all - but they then need a rewrite of John 14.

We are the guys with the post-trib view where saints DO go to heaven - and they are there for much longer than 3.5 or 7 years!

Futhermore with our view - there is no need to slice and dice the 490 year timeline of Dan 9 into bits and bites stems and pieces and scatter the bits all over the timeline of human history.

So the bottom line is - we have the best of all Bibl options right here - with the least problems to deal with!!

in Christ,

Bob

[jasd]

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:Bob Ryan

(Notice all the location terms Christ uses in John 14 to convey the point without fail.)

Quote:jasd

No one is attempting to refute that Jesus Christ went to heaven and is now with the Father upon His throne; that being so in no way supports the notion that we will be likewise going there après Parousia. That said, and speaking of location, what of that of verse 28 chapter 14?

“I go away, and come [again] unto you.” Note: not “for you”, but “unto you”.

>>There is the problem with your view...<<

My problem, Writ’s problem.

>> - having admitted that Christ's words HAVE to admit to "I GO to HEAVEN to prepare a PLACE for you" -- your view has reached an endpoint in that he says "I will COME AGAIN" and "RECEIVE you to Myself" that WHERE I am...<< [ed.jasd]

/ COME AGAIN

/ "RECEIVE you to Myself"

/ WHERE I am...

Exactly! “Come (to atmospheric earth), receive (in same location), where I am (again, same)” – after which He, together with the gathered assembly, will descend to earth to rule and reign for a thousand years.

“Where I am” is, as you’ve already noted: locational.

“Where I am” Strong’s #1510 eimi; be present (‘wherever I am’ – that is, in heaven, in the clouds, on earth, etc.)

>>(in that HEAVEN to which we all admit He went at His resurrection)<<

Exactly; however, Jesus Christ does not remain there...

>>THERE you may BE also.<<

I say again that “where I am” is temporal, conditional, and locational.

Quote:

Quote:Bob Ryan

Jesus reminds Peter that the wicked can not go where He is going - but then assures Peter that HE will be going there.

36 Simon Peter said to Him, “Lord, where are You going?”

Jesus answered him, “Where I am going you cannot follow Me now, but you shall follow Me afterward.”

that setup in John 13 to the John 14 fact that ALL agree to -- which is that Christ WENT to heaven - is "key" because Christ had just stated that WHERE he was going - His followers would ALSO go "later".

[jasd]

>>John 17

24 “Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me;<<

Will not the wicked also see His glory? Of course they will, which brings up the point – what glory is Jesus Christ speaking of...

>>Having admitted that He WENT to real HEAVEN - your argument is at an empass.<<

Non, non, Bob Ryan, you’ve lost sight of the relative condition of “I am” as modified by “where”. My argument is not at an empass, as I’ve not incorporated incompleteness into its exposition.

>>Further more Christ says that WHERE He is going THEY TOO will LATER go as the lead in context to John 14.<<

Indeed, accordingly – to the specificity of John 11:26 – and its several times corroboration by St Paul.

>>Our citizenship is in heaven - Phil 3:20<<

KJV Phil 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven;

Strong’s #4176 politeuma; conversation

1) the administration of civil affairs or of a commonwealth

2) the constitution of a commonwealth, form of government and the laws by which it is administered

3) a state, commonwealth

a) the commonwealth of citizens

Our names and deeds, as recorded in the books, would qualify as administered in the affairs of heaven, yes? We cannot afford to be parochial here.

>>We seek a heavenly city Heb 11<<

Heb 11:16 ...wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

That would be the New Jerusalem, yes? no?

>>We will be "brought to His heavenly kingdom" 2Tim 4:18<<

Lu 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Or, as Wesley notes: For behold the kingdom of God is within or among you - Look not for it in distant times or remote places: it is now in the midst of you: it is come: it is present in the soul of every true believer: it is a spiritual kingdom, an internal principle. Wherever it exists, it exists in the heart.

[jasd]

>>...unbiased readers will find it abundantly clear that His followers -- would also go to heaven. “Where I am going you cannot follow Me now, but you shall follow Me afterward.”<<

Please revisit the above John 11:26 “...shall never die.” – and tandem that 1 Thessalonians 4:14 “...them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him”. These verses do not exhaust the catalogue embracing the matter...

>>the massive amount of work that it takes to rewrite this out of the text is living proof that the natural reading of the text is correct.<<

I agree, totally – the text ought to be read as written, and likewise exposited.

>>It also means that you have to "already want/need to rewrite the text" before you even come to it - to even begin to engage in all of those rewrite girations.<<

Not necessarily, one need only to rightly divide the passage...

[jasd]

Quote:

Quote:Beryl

(not a bit of a text here and another bit there)

Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? [them that are] weaned from the milk, [and] drawn from the breasts.

Isa 28:9 For precept [must be] upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, [and] there a little:

I think most of us present only portions of our arguments – as this format hardly lends itself to dissertations, yes?

>>It is also very easy to have a pre-conceived idea which is contrary to the Bible, and find enough bits of Scripture here and there and put them all together to fit what seems to be an explanation fitting one's views.

[..]

and a willingness to accept that our preconceived ideas might be wrong.<<

[jasd]

>>"The Big Bounce" where saints are caught up to meet Christ in the air -- only to turn right around and softly land back on earth again.<<

Clever, clever... more sound byte than exegesis though; however, more to the point – “The Big Bounce” is validated by a careful read of Writ.

>>...namely that there is a 1000 year reign of the saints with Christ here one earth<<

Without recourse to such as “If Israel would have obeyed – then those prophecies would have found their fulfillment – that said, they are now nullified” – can anyone tell me – during what timeframe are the prophecies of the following

/ child who dies at one hundred years of age be thought cursed

/ David and his retinue have their own gate in the Temple

/ Levitical sacrifices are performed

/ the age of a man shall be such as that of trees

/ the families of the earth who do not come up to Jerusalem on the Sucoth will be punished with drought, plague, etc

/ Gd’s people will rule with a rod of iron

/ Whom does Jesus Christ rule with a rod of iron

/ ETC.

...actualized?

>>INSTEAD of the "desolate earth" teaching of scripture.<<

Jeremiah 4, yes? I submit that that dogma has been arrived-at at the expense of the entirety of the chapter...

>>Futhermore with our view - there is no need to slice and dice the 490 year timeline of Dan 9 into bits and bites stems and pieces and scatter the bits all over the timeline of human history.<<

But that is exactly what has been done to the prophecy by certain .orgs. It first began with the wresting of that which Gd sealed. Sealed, as in s-e-a-l-e-d! until such time as two things occurred – “men shall run to and fro and knowledge shall be increased”. THAT did not happen centuries ago when

the accepted ‘interpretation’ of Daniel 9 was first bruited – and later embraced by the undiscerning. Second, the 490-year prophecy was predicated upon answers that addressed “all Israel”; of course, the Northern Kingdom was in the midst of its own 2520-year diaspora and nowhere in view throughout the wrested version of the 490-year interpretation. Third, it was not until 445 BC that a ‘commandment’ to restore and to build the city Jerusalem emerged. The year 457 BC was but a square peg in a landscape of round holes.

Gd, Himself, set the precedent for “slicing and dicing” the relevant timelines re the COI – by utilizing parenthetical gaps in their chronological histories.

>>So the bottom line is - we have the best of all Bibl options right here - with the least problems to deal with!!<<

A satisfied mind is a good thing.

[BobRyan]

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:Bob Ryan

(Notice all the location terms Christ uses in John 14 to convey the point without fail.)

Quote:jasd

No one is attempting to refute that Jesus Christ went to heaven and is now with the Father upon His throne; that being so in no way supports the notion that we will be likewise going there après Parousia. That said, and speaking of location, what of that of verse 28 chapter 14?

“I go away, and come [again] unto you.” Note: not “for you”, but “unto you”.

>>There is the problem with your view - you admit that the WHERE of "Where He went" is Heaven. Once you have done that - it is all over because that means the PLACE he is preparing for us is in Heaven and NOT the "stratusphere above our earth"..<<

My problem, Writ’s problem.

>> - having admitted that Christ's words HAVE to admit to "I GO to HEAVEN to prepare a PLACE for you" -- your view has reached an endpoint in that he says "I will COME AGAIN" and "RECEIVE you to Myself" that WHERE I am...<< [ed.jasd]

/ COME AGAIN

/ "RECEIVE you to Myself"

/ WHERE I am...

Exactly! “Come (to atmospheric earth), receive (in same location), where I am (again, same)” – after which He, together with the gathered assembly, will descend to earth to rule and reign for a thousand years.

“Where I am” is, as you’ve already noted: locational.

“Where I am” Strong’s #1510 eimi; be present (‘wherever I am’ – that is, in heaven, in the clouds, on earth, etc.)

>>(in that HEAVEN to which we all admit He went at His resurrection)<<

The problem with your view that Jesus wants us all to join Him in the Stratusphere above the rain clouds - is that you have already admitted that Jesus went to heaven - to where His Father is on His throne.

John 13 Already says Jesus is "going" there - and you admit that is "to heaven".

John 13 already says that LATER His own disciples will ALSO go there - and you admit that this is "to heaven" where the Father is.

With that as context Jesus then gives us the text of John 14 "I will come again and receive you to myself SO THAT where I am there you may be also". Which means that in John 13 He tells us THAT we will later Go to that same place to which He is going and then in John 14 He tells us HOW that will happen.

It happens by the fact that He comes again and receives us UP "so that" where He is there we may be also.

Keeping in mind His promise that we would GO to that same place -- it is impossible to miss.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

>>...unbiased readers will find it abundantly clear that His followers -- would also go to heaven. “Where I am going you cannot follow Me now, but you shall follow Me afterward.”<<

Please revisit the above John 11:26 “...shall never die.” – and tandem that 1 Thessalonians 4:14 “...them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him”. These verses do not exhaust the catalogue embracing the matter...

It does not help your argument because as John 13 points out - Jesus was going to heaven. John 14 "you would be glad for me for I GO to the Father". And John 13 points out that the wicked cannot GO there.

He also argues that His followers would go there later. Then in John 14 just 2 verses later He says "I WILL come AGAIN and receive you to myself SO THAT where I am there you may be also".

The joining - occurs only through His "coming again".

And the taking -- is to take us WHERE He went as He makes it clear "you cannot follow Me now, but you SHALL follow Me afterwards".

The context is the same

The destination is the same

the Mechanism is the 2nd coming

The fact that only the righteous can go there - makes it clear that Christ is talking about the place we Go when at the 2nd coming we are allowed to "Follow Him".

in Christ,

Bob

[jasd]

>>The problem with your view...<<

My problem, Writ’s problem.

>>John 13 already says that LATER His own disciples will ALSO go there - and you admit that this is "to heaven" where the Father is.<<

Indeed, mind you, not only “His own disciples”, but everyone thenceforth the crucifixion who ALSO believed in Jesus Christ.

Quote:

Quote:Bob Ryan

With that as context Jesus then gives us the text of John 14 "I will come again and receive you to myself SO THAT where I am there you may be also". Which means that in John 13 He tells us THAT we will later Go to that same place to which He is going and then in John 14 He tells us HOW that will happen.

It happens by the fact that He comes again and receives us UP "so that" where He is there we may be also.

Ahh, I begin to perceive why we are at cross-purposes -- you have narrowed the texts to Jesus Christ speaking only to/about His disciples; whereas, I read the texts as coextensively pertaining as the Great Commission – that is, although Jesus Christ was speaking to His Disciples – He was speaking coextensively to you and me, as well – generation after generation after generation...

You seem to be portraying the Apostles few, as having to lie in their tombs year after year, decade after decade, century after century, and millennium after millennium – sans either their “earthly house of [this] Tabernacle” or that ‘garment’ awaiting them in the heavenlies. You have them “unclothed”, no “earthly house of [this] Tabernacle”, no garment, no nada – as dust-ridden as the wicked; yet Writ advises us that the harvest has already begun – millennia ago.

That is contrary to both the declarative assurance (Jn 11:26) of Jesus Christ and the hermeneutics (2 Cor 5:1-8) of St Paul.

>>Keeping in mind His promise that we would GO to that same place -- it is impossible to miss.<<

Indeed, all of us who “liveth and believeth” in Jesus Christ – will go in our own turn – as we are released from the ‘earthly house of our tabernacle’ wherein “we groan”.

[jasd]

>>The joining - occurs only through His "coming again".<<

Indeed. At His “coming again” those who died awaiting the promised Christ/Messiah; those who’ve ‘gone to sleep’ in the realized Saviour Jesus Christ, having already gone to be with Him; and those remaining alive – are assembled together in the clouds – thenceward, to earth to rule and reign throughout the millennium.

>>And the taking -- is to take us WHERE He went as He makes it clear "you cannot follow Me now, but you SHALL follow Me afterwards".<<

How can that apply to the OT believers who are raised at Jesus Christ’s coming when Zechariah flat-out informs us that Jesus Christ will descend to earth at that time?

[wayfinder]

(John 11:1-46) Is one of the best descriptions of the "state of the dead" in scripture. It starts with the man Lazarus, brother of Mary and Martha. Lazarus is sick and and his sisters send this information to the Son of God. Then Jesus says this sickness is not unto death (v4) but for the glory of God. (v11) "Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I go, that I may awaken him out of sleep". Jesus does not say Lazarus is now in heaven or he will be in heaven shortly, he has fallen asleep. (v13)The disciples think he is speaking of "literal sleep", so Jesus says "Lazarus is dead". When Jesus arrives in Bethany He finds that Lazarus has been dead four days, according to Levitical law, he is not just dead, he is completely and sincerly dead. (v23) Jesus tells Martha, "your brother shall rise again"(future tense). (v24) Martha responds,"I know he will rise in the resurection on the last day". Notice that Martha believes that the resurrection occurs on the last day. Jesus does disagree with her "last day resurection". (v25) "I am the resurection and the life, everyone who lives and belives Me shall never die". Now Lazarus was dead, Jesus said so, the people in town said so, Martha said so, and the stench said so, Jesus said...belive Me you shall never die, it is because those who believe the words of God throughout the ages fall asleep at the end of their life on earth and await the resurection on the "last day". It is true that some have already been resurrected and some have been translated to heaven without seeing death, but the full resurrection occurs at the last day. It is also very clear that when the Son of God called Lazarus forth from the tomb He was not calling him down from heaven.

Matthew 22:32,33 `I AM THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, AND THE GOD OF ISAAC, AND THE GOD OF JACOB'? He is not the God of the dead but of the living." When the crowds heard this, they were astonished at His teaching.

Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.

So the living fall asleep when they come to the end of life, and the dead are brought back to life to recieve their judgment. The dead are standing before the throne appearently alive, but they belong to the god of the dead, Satan.

[jasd]

>>Jesus does not say Lazarus is now in heaven or he will be in heaven shortly,<<

No, what He did say was that no man hath ascended unless he first descended – even Himself, Son of Man.

The Sea Change occured at the crucifixion. Some would have it that other than inspiring a different religion – it, otherwise, caused nar’ a ripple in the greater scheme...

>>(v23) Jesus tells Martha, "your brother shall rise again"(future tense).<<

Indeed, as soon as He calls him from the tomb – as was His intent – given, “that I may awaken him out of sleep”.

>>(v24) Martha responds,"I know he will rise in the resurection on the last day". Notice that Martha believes that the resurrection occurs on the last day.<<

Yes, she did; however, Jesus Christ corrected her belief system and made distinction between two groups of believers – those believing in Him, being dead, yet would live – and those who were living and believing, who would, according to the very words of Jesus Christ – never, never die. “Sleep” being, upon that point, euphemistic.

Per the perfect man:

Job 19:26 And [though] after my skin [worms] destroy this [body], yet in my flesh shall I see God:

Job 19:27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another;...

This doctrine is practically universal; however, many miss the preceding verse 25.

Job 19:25 For I know [that] my redeemer liveth, and [that] he shall stand at the latter [day] upon the earth:

>>(v25) "I am the resurection and the life, everyone who lives and belives Me shall never die".<<

Exactly. It is this verse wherein Jesus Christ departs from doctrine and establishes a hitherto unknown fact, which He emphasizes with the [Gr] emphatic double negative:

...he shall never, never die; not never die; not ever die; etc.

The emphatic double negative in the above can only be misread by the truly and traditionally indoctrinated. What salient fact was to occur, which prompted Jesus Christ to depart from existing doctrine? Easy, He was about to

pay the ultimate redemption – His death.

That redemption provided that He might begin the harvest with the first-fruits.

>>...throughout the ages fall asleep at the end of their life on earth and await the resurection on the "last day".<<

Per Job 19.

>>It is true that some have already been resurrected...<<

Indeed.

>>...and some have been translated to heaven without seeing death,<<

That is unsustainable by Writ.

>>...but the full resurrection occurs at the last day.<<

We are almost in agreement.

>>It is also very clear that when the Son of God called Lazarus forth from the tomb He was not calling him down from heaven.<<

Indeed not. No one suggested that.

>>Matthew 22:32,33 `I AM THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, AND THE GOD OF ISAAC, AND THE GOD OF JACOB'? He is not the God of the dead but of the living."<<

How do you parse that?

Quote:

Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.

>>So the living fall asleep when they come to the end of life, and the dead are brought back to life to recieve their judgment. The dead are standing before the throne appearently alive, but they belong to the god of the dead, Satan.<<

Are you certain that those “standing before the throne” at that time “belong to the god of the dead, Satan”?

What then of:

Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

[wayfinder]

>>No, what He did say was that no man hath ascended unless he first descended – even Himself, Son of Man.<<

John 3:11-13 "Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know and testify of what we have seen, and you do not accept our testimony. "If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? "No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.

Jesus is not speaking of the resurection here, He is speaking of belief based upon testimony. He is saying the testimony you (Nicoemus) hold to was brought to you by someone who ascended into heaven to get. The testimony of the Son of God was brought from heaven when He came to earth. This is the same context as Deuteronomy 30:11-14

The context being that God had given Israel the commandment from heaven so they would not say "go up (ascend) into heaven for us to get it"

>>Job 19:25 For I know [that] my redeemer liveth, and [that] he shall stand at the latter [day] upon the earth:<<

Prophecy fulfilled by the coming of the Son of God.

>>Exactly. It is this verse wherein Jesus Christ departs from doctrine and establishes a hitherto unknown fact, which He emphasizes with the [Gr] emphatic double negative:<<

Strong's Number: 3756 Ou 1.no, not; in direct questions expecting an affirmative answer Strong's Number: 3361 Me: a primary particle of qualified negation (whereas (3756) expresses an absolute denial)

So it would not be never, never it would be they would die but never be dead, but asleep. God is the God of the living not the dead.

>>That is unsustainable by Writ.<<

2Ki 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, [there appeared] a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, which parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

Matthew 17:1-3 And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into a high mountain apart: and he was transfigured before them; and his face did shine as the sun, and his garments became white as the light. And behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elijah talking with him.

>>How do you parse that?<<

Joh 8:52

The Jews said to Him, "Now we know that You have a demon. Abraham died, and the prophets also; and You say, `If anyone keeps My word, he will never taste of death.'

The Son of God is teaching that, although Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob died, a fact made quite clear to Him by the Jews, they were living; because they had only fallen asleep when they died. 'If anyone keeps My word (testimony), he will never taste of death (he will fall asleep)

>>Are you certain that those “standing before the throne” at that time “belong to the god of the dead, Satan”?<<

revelation 20:5,6 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

There are two resurections, the first when the Son of God comes in the clouds at the end of the great tribulation. The second at the end of the 1000 years. It is clear to me that the first resurection is a single event, not an ongoing one.

>>What then of:

Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.<<

Revelation 20:12: And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.

The books (of deeds) were compared with the Book of Life and judgment was rendered on the dead, who are standing before the throne.

[BobRyan]

Remember there is no text in all of scripture that says that "In the Old Testament - at death the soul/spirit of the saints went one place - but now after the resurrection of Christ it now goes someplace else".

The only change the Bible knows of -- is "the resurrection". Until then - the process is unchanged.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Quote:

Quote:Bob Ryan

The problem with your view that Jesus wants us all to join Him in the Stratusphere above the rain clouds - is that you have already admitted that Jesus went to heaven - to where His Father is on His throne.

John 13 Already says Jesus is "going" there - and you admit that is "to heaven".

John 13 already says that LATER His own disciples will ALSO go there - and you admit that this is "to heaven" where the Father is.

With that as context Jesus then gives us the text of John 14 "I will come again and receive you to myself SO THAT where I am there you may be also". Which means that in John 13 He tells us THAT we will later Go to that same place to which He is going and then in John 14 He tells us HOW that will happen.

>>

Ahh, I begin to perceive why we are at cross-purposes -- you have narrowed the texts to Jesus Christ speaking only to/about His disciples; whereas, I read the texts as coextensively pertaining as the Great Commission – that is, although Jesus Christ was speaking to His Disciples – He was speaking coextensively to you and me, as well – generation after generation after generation...

You seem to be portraying the Apostles few, as having to lie in their tombs year after year, decade after decade, century after century, and millennium after millennium – sans either their “earthly house of [this] Tabernacle” or that ‘garment’ awaiting them in the heavenlies. You have them “unclothed”, no “earthly house of [this] Tabernacle”, no garment, no nada – as dust-ridden as the wicked; yet Writ advises us that the harvest has already begun – millennia ago.

1. 2Cor 5 makes it clear that the state between death and resurrection is the "unclothed state".

As Christ affirms in Matt 22 "regarding the resurrection... -- God is NOT the God of the dead".

2. Jesus says that the saints may not follow Christ now "to where He is going" - but will be able to follow later -- then He explains what he means He does not say "so when you die - you will go where I am going" rather He says "I will come again and receive you to Myself SO THAT where I am THERE you May be also" -- this is the promise of the 2nd coming.

in Christ,

Bob

[jasd]

Quote:

John 3:11-13 "Truly, truly, I say to you, [...] how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? "No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.

Pretty straightforward, I’d say; no man can tell you of heavenly things, as no one but Jesus Christ hath either ascended or descended from heaven.

>>Jesus is not speaking of the resurection here,<<

Indeed, and I recall that I drew upon the above text in reference to your forwarding that so-and-so were translated.

>>He is saying the testimony you (Nicoemus) hold to was brought to you by someone who ascended into heaven to get.<<

Sorry, that is too esoteric for me. I could find no confirmation of that in either John 11 or Deuteronomy 30. However, I do find the unequivocal statement needing no context, “And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, [even] the Son od man which in heaven.”

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Quote:jasd

Job 19:25 For I know [that] my redeemer liveth, and [that] he shall stand at the latter [day] upon the earth:

>>Prophecy fulfilled by the coming of the Son of God.<<

Indeed, the Second Coming of Gd will fulfill it.

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Quote:jasd

Exactly. It is this verse wherein Jesus Christ departs from doctrine and establishes a hitherto unknown fact, which He emphasizes with the [Gr] emphatic double negative:

>>Strong's Number: 3756 Ou 1.no, not; in direct questions expecting an affirmative answer Strong's Number: 3361 Me: a primary particle of qualified negation (whereas (3756) expresses an absolute denial)

I understand that the phrase “shall never die” is translated from a combination of these Greek words and freights the emphatic double negative:

#3364 Ou me;

1) never, certainly not, not at all, by no means

#599 Apothnesko;

1 to die

#1519 Eis;

1 into, unto, to, towards, for, among

#3588 Ho;

1 this, that, these, etc.

#165 Aion

1 for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity

2 the worlds, universe

3 period of time, age

...per the underlined above: “never, by no means into this forever/age die” or, per the KJV – “shall never die”.

[jasd]

>>So it would not be never, never it would be they would die but never be dead, but asleep. God is the God of the living not the dead.<<

But Jesus Christ addressed the above already in

John 11:24 ... I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

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Quote:jasd

That is unsustainable by Writ.

>>2Ki 2:11 [...] and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.<<

(what do you think of the letter to Jehoram)

>>Matthew 17:1-3 [...] there appeared unto them Moses and Elijah talking with him.<<

Matt 17:9 .And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

Further, there remains the words of Jesus Christ, “No man hath ascended...”.

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How do you parse that?

>>Joh 8:52

The Jews said to Him, "Now we know that You have a demon. Abraham died, and the prophets also; and You say, `If anyone keeps My word, he will never taste of death.'<< [ed.jasd]

The KJV has it: “he shall never taste of death”

Note: that John 8:52 also utilizes “shall never...” the ou me ... eis ho aion – the same emphatic double negative as reiterated in John 11:26. Y’think Jesus Christ is attempting to apprise us of something important?

Note also: the [tense] distinction between the words “keeps” and “has kept” – as spoken by Jesus Christ.

>>The Son of God is teaching that, although Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob died, a fact made quite clear to Him by the Jews, they were living; because they had only fallen asleep when they died. 'If anyone keeps My word (testimony), he will never taste of death (he will fall asleep)<<

The above was prefaced by the words of Matthew 22:31: “But as touching the resurrection of the dead,”

Jesus Christ was discussing the matter as it touched upon the resurrection, as opposed to a then-existing condition.

[jasd]

>>Remember there is no text in all of scripture that says that "In the Old Testament - at death the soul/spirit of the saints went one place - but now after the resurrection of Christ it now goes someplace else".<<

Then it is not currently the redemption prevailing, but rather the gates of hell.

>>The only change the Bible knows of -- is "the resurrection". Until then - the process is unchanged.<<

Why does Jesus Christ use the emphatic double negative upon this very point. It was unnecessary, unless He was transmitting good tidings – to those who exposit and believe.

[jasd]

>>1. 2Cor 5 makes it clear that the state between death and resurrection is the "unclothed state".<<

2 Cor 5:4 For we that are in [this] tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

There is in the above an implicit ‘the dead are naked/unclothed’ reinforced by the explicit ‘but clothed upon’ (not simply to be clothed with our glorified and resurrected ‘house’). St Paul makes the distinction between ‘clothed upon’ – after being released from the earthly house of [this] Tabernacle to be with the Lord – and clothed with our glorified and resurrected ‘house’ at the Parousia. Otherwise,

those having died, post-crucifixion, without believing in the living Jesus Christ enter into that ‘naked’ state.

Why did St Paul rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord? Seemingly, those finding it an inconvenient doctrine to believe the very words of St Paul – would rather preach a doctrine of both man and his Lord Jesus Christ in the corruption of the grave.

>>As Christ affirms in Matt 22 "regarding the resurrection... -- God is NOT the God of the dead".<<

Seems I made that same point in the above post to wayfinder.

>>2. Jesus says that the saints may not follow Christ now "to where He is going" - but will be able to follow later -- << [ed.jasd]

We depart upon the meaning of “afterwards”, which you interpret as “later”.

Writ uses the Greek tagma/order re those who will assemble with Jesus Christ in the clouds. There are groups of the redeemed, one arriving with Jesus Christ, another caught up without seeing death, those who died in Christ...

>>...then He explains what he means He does not say "so when you die - you will go where I am going"<<

It is constructed by the words of Jesus Christ and St Paul. It is confirmed by St John in the book of Revelation – even as you’ve constructed Trinity – and confirm it.

>>...rather He says "I will come again and receive you to Myself SO THAT where I am THERE you May be also" -- this is the promise of the 2nd coming.<<

To whom was the Great Commission given? It is the same grammatical format. It addresses the pronoun you coextensively.

[wayfinder]

First of all, let me try to make myself clear about what I wrote initially. Secondly, don't quote Paul to me ....

What Jesus was saying to Nicodemus was about the teaching of the Rabbis. Jesus says, "if you do not believe in earthly things how can you believe in heavenly things". He said this in the context of access to evidence. Nicodemus and fellow Rabbis did not even believe what was before their very eyes, then how could they believe what was in heaven, except that they believe the Son of Man, for no one had ascended into heaven to get the information and bring it to the Rabbis so they could learn it. The only one who brought the information from heaven was He who descended from heaven, the Son of Man. Verse 12 of John 3, contains the statement that proves this context. This same context is used in Deuteronomy 30:11-14. Although in this case God is telling the Israelites that the teaching has been given to them from heaven, so that they can't say who will go up into heaven to get it for us.

Job was saying, even if worms eat my flesh, I will see my Redemer in my flesh on the last day, that is, at the resurrection (still future)

As far as the Son of God's statements reguarding His return, the context is the marriage process. He is the Bridegroom when He leaves and He comes as Bridegroom. When you understand the process of the Jewish wedding, every phrase that Jesus says makes sense. The bridegroom went away to his father's house to make preparations for the wedding. This would include, if necessary, adding on a room to the father's house. Jesus says, in My Father's house are many rooms. I go to prepare a place for you.... It was also the father's right to determine and set the wedding date. The Son, nor the servants, even the bride did not know the time. Jesus words, Matthew 24:36 but of that day and hour no one knows.... Then Jesus says, if I go away I will come again and recieve you... that where I am there you may be also. The process also required the bride to be ready when the bridegroom came, this presented a problem because how could the bride be in a constant state of readiness? This problem was also addressed in the process and appears in Jesus words. The bridegroom, after receiving the day and hour info. from his father, would notify his servants who would go on ahead of him and tell the bridesmaids, who were stationed along the road the bridegroom would take, that the bridegroom was on his way. The bridesmaids would then go the the bride's house and prepare her to meet her bridegroom. This is exactly what Jesus discribes in Matthew 24:42-51 and 25:1-13.

The book of Revelation is the account of the preparation of the bride of Christ, see (Rev. 1:1-3) The Father reveals the time of the event of the wedding. The Son tells His bondservants. The seven messages are to the bridesmaids. (Revelation 19:7,8) tells us the bride is ready to meet her Bridegroom and the coming of the Bridegroom in the following verses. No one went to the wedding feast until the bridegroom came for them and brought them to the feast. It is all there in the very words of the Son of God.