The Rapture Explained

[BobRyan]

First of all, let me try to make myself clear about what I wrote initially. Secondly, don't quote Paul to me ....

I know why the Muslim's don't like Paul - so now what is your beef with scripture?

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

>>The joining - occurs only through His "coming again".<<

Indeed. At His “coming again” those who died awaiting the promised Christ/Messiah; those who’ve ‘gone to sleep’ in the realized Saviour Jesus Christ, having already gone to be with Him;

Biggest problem there -

There is no "at your death you will come to be with Me where I am " in John 14.

Second biggest problem

1Thess 4 Paul argues that the way that BOTH the living AND the dead are to be "WITH the Lord" is via the rapture+resurrection event that takes place in the future - at the 2nd coming.

Third biggest problem

The resurrection "The FIRST resurrection" event of 1Thess 4 is shown in Rev 20 as that which takes place at the 2nd coming described in Rev 19.

Dan 7 presents the picture that ALL saints both OT and NT are those who are persecuted by the little horn power.

in Christ,

Bob

[tribeofjudah]

Amen brother. The elements will MELT with fervent heat, according to the Bible. Who can stand on that great day? There is no one left behind.

The Great Controversy is an excellent study.

Was anyone left behind at the Ark? They all perished. Be sure that you do not take part in the 2nd death. I hope to never die... even so Lord come quickly!

[jasd]

>>Secondly, don't quote Paul to me ....<<

Allow me this observation: the sentiment above seems to reflect extreme Phariseeism – the exception being your acceptance of the Gospels, such as they may be portrayed. Acts 9:10-17; 13:2 seems rather to argue favorably for the acceptance of St Paul – even though the book of Acts was written by St Luke. Dismissing St Luke for whatever imagined purposes would also disannul the eponymous book of Luke. Are you willing to go so far as that? Anyway, the fact that the same peoples that took counsel to kill Jesus Christ also

sought to kill St Paul – is good enough for anyone, I’d think.

>>The only one who brought the information from heaven was He who descended from heaven, the Son of Man. Verse 12 of John 3, contains the statement that proves this context. This same context is used in Deuteronomy 30:11-14.<<

You may have established “context”, however, it is Jesus Christ who reinforced His exposition with the

conclusive and/or incontestable fact: “And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, ...” (Jn 3:11)

>>Job was saying, even if worms eat my flesh, I will see my Redemer in my flesh on the last day, that is, at the resurrection (still future)<<

It is as I’ve stated.

>>His return, the context is the marriage process.<<

Matt 25:1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins,

I believe the above establishes that what follows is a parabolic treat of its primary subject; that is, the virgins wise and foolish. The particulars seemingly serving to enlarge upon that are interesting, but

do not exactly track, example: in Jewish custom re weddings, feasts, and lodging – it is not always so that the bridegroom returns to his fathers house to marry, consummate, and feast.

>>He is the Bridegroom when He leaves and He comes as Bridegroom.

[...]

This would include, if necessary, adding on a room to the father's house. Jesus says, in My Father's house are many rooms. I go to prepare a place for you....<<

Your above “if necessary” adds the clinker. In fact, the bridegroom does not always prepare a room in his father’s house for his bride and him to live. It is a ‘sometimes’ thing.

>>Then Jesus says, if I go away I will come again and recieve you... that where I am there you may be also.<<

Does not the “where I am” denote the sense of “where present”, rather than where I dwell or came from? I prefer this translation, as when, according to some expositors, Jesus Christ returns to earth together with the saints after the millenium – he does not leave His “where I am” still awaiting behind in heaven – but His “where I am” is with the saints, wherever that may be...

[jasd]

Quote:

Quote:jasd

Indeed. At His “coming again” those who died awaiting the promised Christ/Messiah; those who’ve ‘gone to sleep’ in the realized Saviour Jesus Christ, having already gone to be with Him;

>>Biggest problem there -

There is no "at your death you will come to be with Me where I am " in John 14.<<

I should say not! you’ve presented a paraphrase, which is found nowhere in Writ. I believe this gambit is defined as ‘erecting a strawman’. As you ought to know, what I proffered instead are Jesus Christ’s very words, as found in John 11—and confirmed in texts elsewhere.

>>Second biggest problem

1Thess 4 Paul argues that the way that BOTH the living AND the dead are to be "WITH the Lord" is via the rapture+resurrection event that takes place in the future - at the 2nd coming.<<

That parallels what I forward. The point you fail to address is the fact that 1 Thessalonians 4 portrays Gd/Jesus Christ bringing with Him those who ‘fell asleep’ believing in Him post-crucifixion – with those believers having died prior to the crucifixion being raptured (in the literal sense as opposed to the Theologically dogmatic assertion) to join Jesus Christ in the ambient atmosphere of earth.

>>Third biggest problem

The resurrection "The FIRST resurrection" event of 1Thess 4 is shown in Rev 20 as that which takes place at the 2nd coming described in Rev 19.<<

I fail to take your point.

>>Dan 7 presents the picture that ALL saints both OT and NT are those who are persecuted by the little horn power.<<

How so?

[jasd]

>>The elements will MELT with fervent heat, according to the Bible. Who can stand on that great day? There is no one left behind.<<

Among the many texts the above would contradict is: “And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.” (Rev 19:15)

Well, we have a picture of Jesus Christ coming as a thief with much destruction, but who is left to rule? I mean, with all the melting with fervent heat, and all that sort of thing...

It may be of interest to this person or that – that turn-of-the-era Jews referred to the Temple as Heaven and Earth. Mebbe, that bears. Mebbe, not. However,

in AD 70, the Temple literally melted with fervent heat – until the elements gold, silver, and brass ran down between the stones. We know that the Romans overturned each stone to retrieve the gold.

[Dr. Rich]

Jasd, Can you please show where Luke was included in John 14:26 and 17:17-22? Luke was a student of Paul, so clearly biased.

[jasd]

>>Can you please show where Luke was included in John 14:26<<

Jn 14:26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

I fail to take your point.

>>...and 17:17-22?<<

Re: Jn 17:17-22, again, you're just a bit too cryptic and I fail to take your point.

>>Luke was a student of Paul, so clearly biased.<<

Per the above - though I've sometimes wondered about this or that re St Paul, I don't have a problem with either him or St Luke - and accept that they were vessels of Gd.

[Dr. Rich]

Ok jasd, Let me try to put it another way. Please read John 14, 15, 16 and 17 and you will see that Jesus was ONLY talking to the disciples and it was for them that Jesus said what He did--not for the rest of the world. Jesus prayed that THEIR words would be understood--not the words of Paul or Luke. I for one believe that the Father heard the Prayer of Jesus. Therefore I place my bet (my soul) upon the words of Jesus and in Him only!

[jasd]

I addressed that re the Great Commission. Although Jesus Christ was speaking to His Apostles (we weren't around then and they aren't around now), He was doing so co-extensively, which extended to and included successive generations.