Overcoming...

[Stan]

Quote:

Revelation 3:21

To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on

my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on

his throne.

NIV

Some might claim even Jesus was a legalist.

[Musicman1228]

The Covenant/Law is what separates the Kingdom of Heaven from the rest of the world. God gave it to the first K of H at Sinai; He tried to give it to the second K of H but His own Kingdom crucified Him for it; and He has given it to the third and final K of H (the Rock cut out without hands in Dan.2), but they apparently want to give it back. Keeping the Covenant is the way in which the King (Jesus) is able to tell who is a member of His Kingdom. I find it amazing that Adventists have lost sight of this and are desperately trying to become just like every other Christian denomination that believes that salvation comes by grace through faith and not through the process of sanctification (which Jesus taught). They have lost sight of who they are and for what purpose God called them. They are now sleeping by the side of the road (Matt. 25:1-13). It will be a real shocker (shaking?) when they are finally awakened by the midnight cry only to find out that they missed the coming of the Master to the Faithful and Wise bondservant and the fellow bondservants (Matt. 24:45-51).

Remember, then, what you received and heard. Keep it, and repent. If you will not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come against you. Rev.3:3.

[Gerr]

Quote:

I find it amazing that Adventists have lost sight of this and are desperately trying to become just like every other Christian denomination that believes that salvation comes by grace through faith and not through the process of sanctification (which Jesus taught).

Friend, I think you got your cart before your horse. Sanctification is NOT the ground/basis of acceptance with God. It is the RESULT of accepting Him into our lives, who then "works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure."

[Tom Wetmore]

Quote:

Revelation 3:21

To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on

my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on

his throne.

NIV

Some might claim even Jesus was a legalist.

But he also said, "I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John 16:33.

And in Revelation describing the spiritual battle for the heart and soul of the saints, the Lamb is the overcomer for us. "They will make war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will overcome them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings-and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers." Revelation 17:14.

And for those that equate overcoming with sanctification, Jesus' own statement on that is to the same effect - that we are made holy (sanctified) because he is made holy for us. He does it all from begining to the end - He is the alpha and the omega of our salvation. "Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth. [Remember that John called Jesus, the Word in the flesh and said "I am the Truth."] As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world. For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified." - John 17:17-19.

[Gerr]

The same John also said, "They (saints) overcame him (the dragon) by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony." Rev 12.

[Musicman1228]

Many shall purify themselves, and make themselves white, and be refined; but the wicked shall do wickedly; and none of the wicked shall understand; but they that are wise shall understand. Dan.12:10.

Purify themselves through the process of sanctification. The warning is that the wicked will not understand this.

They made their own garments white by being sanctified by the truth, by abiding in the words of Jesus Christ Himself.

Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth. John 17:17.

When they are sanctified through the truth they are given white robes because they are found worth.

But thou hast a few names in Sardis that did not defile their garments: and they shall walk with me in white; for they are worthy. He that overcometh shall thus be arrayed in white garments; and I will in no wise blot his name out of the book of life, and I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. Rev.3:4-5.

We must overcome in the same way Jesus overcame.

He that overcometh, I will give to him to sit down with me in my throne, as I also overcame, and sat down with my Father in his throne. Rev.3:21.

Who gets the credit?

But they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives so much that they were afraid to die. Rev.12:11.

[Gerr]

So which is correct? Is this an either/or proposition? Either Christ did/does the overcoming or the saints?

Perhaps a joint endeavor? Like: "work out YOUR own salvation with fear and trembling, for IT IS GOD who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure." Phil 2:12,13 ESV. "Abide in me and I in you. For without me you can do nothing?"

[Musicman1228]

The difficulty is justifying what Jesus says personally and through His proven prophets with what Paul says. It is simple to prove the proposition that Jesus Christ does it all for us when you use only the words of Paul; when you use only the words of Jesus Christ who is the WORD they show a different picture. God can do nothing in us and with us unless we make the effort to accomplish something in our lives with what He has given us. What He has given us is the TRUTH through His words-singular and absolute, and His Holy Spirit to lead us into that TRUTH.

But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his deeds have been carried out in God.” John 3:21.

The process of being guided by the Holy Spirit into ALL truth is called Sanctification.

When the Spirit of Truth comes (the real Holy Spirit), she will guide you into all the truth, for she will not speak on her own authority, but whatever she hears she will speak, and she will declare to you the things that are to come. John 16:13.

The result will be that we are born of the Spirit of Truth, and will show who are our parents, and what we are now (re)made of; it is the evidence of our New Birth:

Then the dragon became furious with the woman (the Holy Spirit) and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. Rev.12:17.

[Robert]

Quote:

Revelation 3:21

To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on

my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on

his throne.

NIV

Some might claim even Jesus was a legalist.

I guess the 144,000 will share Christ's throne....Okay....

But please remember in heaven "the greatest" is "servant of all." The 144,000 (a symbolic number) are those who go through the time of Jacob's trouble. They have given up all things - money, houses, cars, jobs and all self-interests. They will experience freedom from iniquity - our bent-to-self.

EGW: “Their earthliness [worldliness] must be removed that the image of Christ may be perfectly reflected.” [4SP 438]

In other words their love of self will be dominated by the Spirit of God. "The law of the spirit of life" will defeat "the law of sin" (the love of self). Hence, "they loved not their lives even unto death".

[Robert]

So which is correct? Is this an either/or proposition? Either Christ did/does the overcoming or the saints?

Jesus has overcome the world. There was zero self-interests in his life. He lived to serve. He had that love which seeks not its own, but another's wealth. Here's where all of us fall short....

Since I was "in Christ" and since "the law of the Spirit of life in Christ" defeated "the law of sin and death" I stand perfect in him.

However, the last generation of Christians will experience what is already true of them "in Christ". Hence it doesn't add to His perfect righteous, rather it is the ultimate fruit of the gospel received by faith. Only the 144,000 will experience this to its fullest.

[Stewart (SDA)]

So which is correct? Is this an either/or proposition? Either Christ did/does the overcoming or the saints?

Perhaps a joint endeavor? Like: "work out YOUR own salvation with fear and trembling, for IT IS GOD who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure." Phil 2:12,13 ESV. "Abide in me and I in you. For without me you can do nothing?"

Thank you Gerry. Yes, the idea of a joint endeavor is the idea presented in the Spirit of Prophecy too. For some here, this still carries some weight.

"Christ bore the test of character in our behalf that we might bear this test in our own behalf through the divine strength He has brought to us." (TDG 263)

"Jesus endured the painful fast in our behalf and conquered Satan in every temptation, thus making it possible for man to conquer in his own behalf, and on his own account, through the strength brought to him by this mighty victory gained as man's substitute and surety." (TMK 314)

In my view, the idea that Christianity calls for little or no effort on our part, is a fatal deception.

Many seem to take the idea of Proxy to the extent that Christ does all the work for us, and that we do not need to "work out our own salvation" at all.

___________

Stewart.

[Gerr]

144k by and by? How do you know this is not that generation?

[Gerr]

Yeah, it's amazing how a Kobe Bryant could go "on a mission" to win an NBA championship by putting every effort necessary to win it, and yet someone expects the crown of life for no effort? "They do it to win a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable!"

Amazing!

[Robert]

144k by and by? How do you know this is not that generation?

Doesn't matter...the 144K are saved by faith alone....The traditional view has them saved by their works.....

[Ted Oplinger]

Keeping the Covenant is the way in which the King (Jesus) is able to tell who is a member of His Kingdom.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

144k by and by? How do you know this is not that generation?

Doesn't matter...the 144K are saved by faith alone....The traditional view has them saved by their works.....

By a faith that doesn't work? Vain hope!!!

[Musicman1228]

Then I looked, and behold, on Mount Zion stood the Lamb, and with him x144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads. Rev.14:1.

These have been redeemed from mankind as firstfruits for God and the Lamb, and in their mouth no lie was found, for they are blameless. Rev.14:4.

Where in Revelation does it say the the 144,000 are saved by faith alone. You are making that up. God does not give anyone His family name if they have any sin in them. The 144K are blameless, with no lie found in their mouths. 'Found' means TESTED. Salvation by grace through faith (or faith by grace) says that there is no test, and also says that no one is righteous, and no one can ever become righteous; that the robe of the righteousness of Jesus covers their filthy rags, so that they when they stand before the Throne the Father is fooled into believing they are righteous when they are not. The 144K are the first born of the Woman of Rev.12 (after their brother Jesus) and the Holy Spirit does not give birth to anyone that has any sin in them at all. This is NOT accomplished by merely saying they believe in Jesus and His salvation by faith. Anyone can say that, even if they don't mean it, just to be saved. Where is the proof that you love God unless you keep His commandments. That is the test. That is what having no lie in your mouth means. Blameless means Righteous, and the method is keeping the commandments of God and holding to the testimony of Jesus Christ (Rev. 12:17).

[Twilight]

As we lay hold of the MERITS of a crucified and risen saviour we are justified.

Then by continuing to lay hold of those MERITS, we are sanctified.

We work out our own salvation, by continually responding and submitting to Gods leading.

That in itself has no merit, as it is of God.

But it is only through a WILLING co-operation that we can be saved, the WILL accepting the MERITS of a crucified and risen Saviour and co-operates as that MERIT...

...hits the heart.

God bless,

Mark

[John317]

Where in Revelation does it say the the 144,000 are saved by faith alone. You are making that up. God does not give anyone His family name if they have any sin in them. The 144K are blameless, with no lie found in their mouths. 'Found' means TESTED. Salvation by grace through faith (or faith by grace) says that there is no test, and also says that no one is righteous, and no one can ever become righteous; that the robe of the righteousness of Jesus covers their filthy rags, so that they when they stand before the Throne the Father is fooled into believing they are righteous when they are not.

I'm afraid that is misstating the doctrine of righteousness by faith. When correctly understood, it doesn't tell us that it results in the Father's being fooled at all. It also doesn't imply that there is no test of the believer. The test, however, is not for God to learn anything.

Do you believe that the 144,00 are saved by works of law?

I'd also like to know what Dr. Rich thinks about this if he'd care to share his thoughts on this.

[John317]

As we lay hold of the MERITS of a crucified and risen saviour we are justified.

Then by continuing to lay hold of those MERITS, we are sanctified.

We work out our own salvation, by continually responding and submitting to Gods leading.

That in itself has no merit, as it is of God.

But it is only through a WILLING co-operation that we can be saved, the WILL accepting the MERITS of a crucified and risen Saviour and co-operates as that MERIT...

...hits the heart.

Excellent, Twilight. I completely agree.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

As we lay hold of the MERITS of a crucified and risen saviour we are justified.

Then by continuing to lay hold of those MERITS, we are sanctified.

We work out our own salvation, by continually responding and submitting to Gods leading.

That in itself has no merit, as it is of God.

But it is only through a WILLING co-operation that we can be saved, the WILL accepting the MERITS of a crucified and risen Saviour and co-operates as that MERIT...

...hits the heart.

Excellent, Twilight. I completely agree.

So does Ellen White and many of the reformers... :-)

God bless,

Mark

[John317]

I find it amazing that Adventists have lost sight of this and are desperately trying to become just like every other Christian denomination that believes that salvation comes by grace through faith and not through the process of sanctification (which Jesus taught).

I don't see that there is any real contradiction between salvation by God's grace to be accepted through faith and "the process of sanctification." These things work together as hand in glove. The process of sanctification comes as we walk with Christ under the continual guidance of the Holy Spirit in a faith-based relationship with the Lord. In other words, the process of sanctification results from the salvation that we receive every day through faith. Faith is like a empty hand by which we receive God's saving grace.

You may see a contradiction between Paul's teaching on salvation by faith and the teaching of Jesus, but there is no real contradiction if you dig deep and understand what both Jesus and Paul are saying. See Romans 3: 31 and 6: 1, 15; Romans 8; 1 Cor. 7: 18; 9: 21; Gal. 5: 16-25, for instance.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Excellent, Twilight. I completely agree.

So does Ellen White and many of the reformers... :-)

Yes, indeed. God is leading out a church and not a lot of independent individuals here and there. We can trust the whole Bible.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Doesn't matter...the 144K are saved by faith alone....The traditional view has them saved by their works.....

By a faith that doesn't work? Vain hope!!!

How much work? 50% imputed...50% imparted? 90%/10%, etc?

The 144,000 are saved 100% by the imputed righteousness of Christ just as we all are.....Yes, fruit will be there, but to say that it saves is Catholicism.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

By a faith that doesn't work? Vain hope!!!

How much work? 50% imputed...50% imparted? 90%/10%' date=' etc?

The 144,000 are saved 100% by the imputed righteousness of Christ just as we all are.....Yes, fruit will be there, but to say that it saves is Catholicism. [/quote']

Would kindly SHOW where I EVER said that it is sanctification that saves us?

Sanctification is the RESULT of justification. While justification is the basis. the lack of a sanctified life is proof positive that a professing Christian never possessed the former in the first place, and that his/her so-called faith is just a sham.

Without it, how can you, how can anyone tell one has truly been justified?