Ken Ham explores demise of Christianity in EU and US

[BobRyan]

I strongly urge everyone to see Ken Ham's fan-tas-tic 64-min free podcast now :

http://www.answersingenesis.org/events/state-of-the-nation

He shows how Christianity was effectively killed in the EU (Church attendance at far less than 10% in some areas, as compared to about 50% in the middle of the 20th century)

in Christ,

Bob

[phkrause]

Personally I think the demise of Christianity has more to do with people not study or even reading the Bible. Eliminating pray, God and etc from many things that we as a "Christian Nation" used to do. But I've also seen survey's that claim that Christianity is getting stronger. Just my few cents worth.

pk

[BobRyan]

Click the link -- be informed -- then draw a conclusion.

It is as easy as that.

in Christ,

Bob

[Neil D]

I have better use of my time than to chase ghost issues that reside in the minds of paranoids.....Better yet, let me rephrase this thought....should I fester over issues that glorify satan or should I fester over issues that glorify God? Which issues glory God? well, let see...how to respect people, love them into the truth about God's love, water the thought that God loves them so much so as to die for them......Which issues glorify satan? Let's see....paranoia over Gays and thier agenda...."Liberals" taking over the US..oh, wait, Obama did win the election. The liberals did take over the US....OOOOOooooh NNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOooooooooooooooooooooooo!

try again bob.

[BobRyan]

Well had you "allowed" yourself to "see" the information in the video clip - you would have seen that Ken Ham is arguing that the official formal promotion of LGBT by our President (as sinful as it is) - is not the main issue and should not sidetrack our efforts from the real foundational core from which such corruption is derived.

Ken advises not getting sidetracked there -- but having not even seen the information to speak from an informed POV - I can see why you would have missed the point entirely.

in Christ,

Bob

[Neil D]

Oh,...so you and Ken agree with me that it was NOT worth my time to get side tracked.

Thank you...Glad to know that we are on the same page....sort of..

[Gerr]

The news of the demise of Christianity in the west is rather premature and exaggerated. The outpourring of God's Spirit is still ahead.

[Dr. Shane]

What we see is the secularization of society. Regardless what its causes are, it does provide greater opportunities for the church to carry the gospel. Creation evangelism is one tool we can use to reach the unchurched. The Adventist church is active in creation evangelism as well as many other forms of outreach.

[Bravus]

'decline' might have been a better word choice...

[Kountzer]

The church militant will be around long after Ken Ham, whoever he is, and whatever group he is a part of, is long gone.

DB

[Bravus]

Heh, the irony is that he is a creationist speaker... he's talking down the church as part of making his creationist points.

[BobRyan]

The news of the demise of Christianity in the west is rather premature and exaggerated. The outpourring of God's Spirit is still ahead.

Ken Ham shows that 75% of conservative youth are leaving the Christian Church. That spells "demise". And that exodus is actually happening in our own church as well.

Ken Ham shows that the U.S is trending along the same path as the UK and EU in their demise.

We can not view the signs and hope that it "means something different" than it has already been shown to mean.

The only reason that in our eschatology this does not end in complete atheism as it has in the EU - is that we teach that "Satan steps in" once the saints are sealed and sets up his own "blended" religion. His primary opponents will be anyone left with enough knowledge of scripture to know that God is not going to blend Evoltionism, Hinduism and Christianity into one unholy glob. (I think that is supposed to "start" this year according to one group.)

He documents the effective result of evoltuionism-blended with Christianity -- showing that children who attend Bible class - "Sunday School" are MORE likely to leave the church because of evolutionism than those who do not. The reason is because they hear church leaders accept evolutionism and then conclude that the bible is not trusted even by church leaders.

Hence - for numerous reasons I recommend actually seeing the information on the video

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

What we see is the secularization of society. Regardless what its causes are, it does provide greater opportunities for the church to carry the gospel. Creation evangelism is one tool we can use to reach the unchurched. The Adventist church is active in creation evangelism as well as many other forms of outreach.

True. It is also a way to reach our own members before they exit. Ken Ham documents the exit strategy being used to drive the youth out of the church at an alarming rate.

in Christ,

Bob

[Dr. Shane]

Evolution is very enticing because it flatters intellectual pride. A person getting sucked into the evolution trap starts to think of themselves as smarter or more intelligent than those believing in a literal creation. Many will fancy themselves as great thinkers, scientifically minded or philosophically evolved. Reaching them isn't just about showing them that Biblical creation is plausible, it is more about breaking through a protective ego they have built around themselves. That is a great challenge.

Reaching our young people with the creation message before they allow pride to isolate them has been shown to be effective. However the devil is at work there too. When we use false facts to teach against evolution, and later the young person learns that what they were taught was not true, they are more likely to throw away the whole teaching of creationism instead of just the false information they were taught. They throw out the baby with the bath water. That is why it is so important only to teach what is supported with the evidence and freely admit that some things we just don't know.

[Dr. Shane]

Heh, the irony is that he is a creationist speaker... he's talking down the church as part of making his creationist points.

AiG is very much involved with inreach. Inreach, as contrast with outreach, is when a ministry ministers to those already in the church. Other inreach ministries that are typical would be marriage ministries, financial ministries, etc. As Christians we are to be ready to give reason for the hope we have in Christ and many Christians cannot five reason why they believe in creation. Thus AiG works to strengthen their ability to explain why they believe what they believe.

[BobRyan]

Good points. Christ's work was primarily "inreach" as well.

A crumbling state of Christianity in Europe - that was duped by the same evolution-compromise that American Christianity is more and more embracing - is simply a "lesson in history" that Ken Ham wants to make sure all are aware of -- The book "Already Gone" speaking to the exodus of the youth over this issue - might be interesting to read. I think I will look for it.

in Christ,

Bob

[Tom Wetmore]

Ken Ham shows that 75% of conservative youth are leaving the Christian Church. That spells "demise". And that exodus is actually happening in our own church as well...

It would seem to me that the word I have highlighted is both misplaced in the sentence and key to understanding the problem. I would say that it is not really youth that are conservative (or even only conservative youth) that are leaving the Christian Church. Rather, I think it is youth across the spectrum of ideological orientations leaving organized religion, especially the conservative (traditional/fundamentalist) Christian Churches.

Youth especially need and are searching for faith that Makes Sense and that Is Real. If they do not find people of real genuine faith that make rational sense in the Church, they will leave when they have the freedom to do so, when family ties no longer bind them there. The hypocrisy radar of young people is very sensitive and they quickly know phony faith and they do not wish to hang with hypocrites. And if the answers from the Church to real life and societal problems do not rationally make sense they move on and keep searching elsewhere.

And therein lies the problem with traditional conservative religion - it does too good a job at producing hypocrites that do not make rational sense.

Tom

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

Ken Ham shows that 75% of conservative youth are leaving the Christian Church. That spells "demise". And that exodus is actually happening in our own church as well...

It would seem to me that the word I have highlighted is both misplaced in the sentence and key to understanding the problem. I would say that it is not really youth that are conservative (or even only conservative youth) that are leaving the Christian Church. Rather, I think it is youth across the spectrum of ideological orientations leaving organized religion, especially the conservative (traditional/fundamentalist) Christian Churches.

The video makes the point that the survey assumption is that liberal church membership loss is even worse -- we know that is true over all of those churches -- and merely assume it is holding true at the level of their youth.

So measuring the rate of loss in the conservative camp was an attempt at "best case" rather than "worst case" scenario at that macro level slice.

The survey showed that when the 20-somethings were questioned - they indicated that 90% had mentally "checked out" by the end of high school.

The argument was never that conservatives lose more youth than liberals.

George Knight makes a very good case when he points out the historical fact that the liberal churches are dying much faster than conservative ones in his book "Neutering of Adventism" page 17-18 and his reference to Dean Kelly's "Why Conservative Churches are Growing".

It is instructive that George Knight affirms Ken Ham's point on the devastating effects that "belief" in evolutionism has had on liberal churches (see page 17 of Knight's book).

in Christ,

Bob

[Parade Orange]

the demise of our civilization started when God gave heterosexuals the option of divorcing their wifes out of the cold sinful evil heartless black as coal hardness of their hearts!

the demise of our civilization started when the men who founded our country gave up powdered wigs.

The demise of our civilization happened when the ladies bobbed their hair and hiked up their skirts above the ankle!

The demise of our civilization happened when homophobic jerks killed a man cause he was gay and the society thought that was ok(thru the court system).

demise of the society!

Jesus said it will come! why so suprised blanche!

[BobRyan]

Get out much?

[Parade Orange]

...

and giving gays the same rights as straight people in our free society that believes in separation of church and state is gonna happen.

so maybe a few idiots will have to think of something else to do than bellyache against humans that have been maligned for many generations.

cause the fear and loathing of fellow human beings towards another group of human beings is not of JESUS.

and having bible verses to back up hate is exactly what mysogeny and slavery had!

its tired and we have read the book,scene the movie, and done the musical!!!!!!!!

[John317]

Explain or describe the SDA church you would like to see.

How would it be different in any way you believe would help keep young people in the church?

[Dr. Shane]

And therein lies the problem with traditional conservative religion - it does too good a job at producing hypocrites that do not make rational sense.

Tom

I think we error when we direct our concern about hypocracy only toward conservative circles. I have observed children raised in conservative homes that left the church. I have also observed children raised in liberal homes that have left the church. I have observed children raised in conservative homes that have remained in the church and remained conservative. I have also observed children raised in liberal homes that have remained in the church and remained liberal.

Children tend to leave their childhood religion when they fail to see it produce character in their parents. A religion that cannot transform character is not worth keeping. Regardless if a parent's theology is conservative or liberal, when the children witness character-transforming power they are much more likely to remain in the faith. When that character-transforming power is absent, there is little value placed on the faith.

Clarification: I use the terms "conservative" and "liberal" in a loose way relating to spirituality. No political ideology should be associated with their use in this context.

[Parade Orange]

BOBRYAN! Hi!

was the question directed at me 'Get out much?' ?

[Dr. Shane]

the demise of our civilization started when the men who founded our country gave up powdered wigs.

It has been all down hill from there