Ken Ham explores demise of Christianity in EU and US

[Musicman1228]

You are so right, Shane. The conflict between evolution and creation as commonly held within Christianity is minor compared with the real problem. The idea of Sola Scriptura has been taught for so long in the church that thinking Christians have a difficult time with the myriad of conflicts between the O.T., the words of Jesus Christ, and the gospel according to Paul, which is totally different than the gospel that Jesus taught. People instinctively see this conflict, it is not addressed from the pulpit in any meaningful way, they get confused, then bored because of the lack of challenge to their thinking, then they leave. I know that personally I very rarely attend church anymore because of the pablum that is being fed to me from our Pastors. This is one of the reasons I like this forum, because at least here is a place where I can ask questions, get answers (even if I disagree) and my thinking is challenged in a meaningful way. Also, when was the last time any of you have heard a meaningful sermon on the soon return of Jesus? So thanks, Y'all.

[Bravus]

It's also plausible (we don't have evidence either way, as far as I know), that a greater emphasis on creationism, especially when it is manifested as 'those who are not recent creationists have no place in the church', is *contributing* to the decline in church numbers.

[Dr. Shane]

For the purpose of this discussion I think we need to define "church". I think, as we have been using it, the word church applies to all of Christianity - Protestants, Catholics and Orthodox. If that is the case, then there is no great emphasis on creation except in some of the Protestant churches. That would be expected since Protestants profess to believe in Sola Scriptura and evolution is entirely incompatible with the doctrine of Sola Scriptura.

Even if integrating evolution into our doctrines would increase membership I don't see that as being beneficial. We may be able to increase membership by having pot smoking worship services but at what cost. If we have to compromise Biblical truth in order to gain members, what is the purpose of the church?

[Bravus]

But there's the rub: the belief that scripture requires belief in recent creationism - and the step further to make this effectively a test of fellowship - is quite a narrow and unusual one within Christianity as you note. I know *you personally* believe that Sola Scriptura directly implies this, but there are many Christian Bible scholars who disagree. I agree that compromising Biblical doctrine to gain members would be wrong and counter-productive. But I would also say that creating new tests of fellowship based on somewhat precarious Biblical interpretation is counter-productive.

I have no brief: by all means the SDA church can maintain that purity and sink into obscurity. The thread is about the decline and a particular position had been taken - that evolutionism was the cause of the falling numbers and creationism the cure. I simply suggested that there's no evidence for that position and that the reverse might in fact be the case. I didn't particularly say whether that would be a good or bad thing, but it's a plausible argument: if you start defining the bounds of who can be in the church more and more narrowly, *of course* fewer people are going to fit within that definition.

[Dr. Shane]

I know *you personally* believe that Sola Scriptura directly implies this, but there are many Christian Bible scholars who disagree.

[Bravus]

I think, though, that it's a more recent trend to work hard at deciding who should be out. Or perhaps I lack the long historical view and it was like that in the 50s and before, but certainly during the 70s and 80s the tent was much bigger, and there's been a swing back. It can be argued that the 'big tent' was the cause of a mallaise, but that's an argument that needs some evidence rather than just assertions.

And Shane, how many of those new churches are in developed countries in the US and Europe? Because the decline in those areas was what this thread was about. I don't think anyone is denying the growth rates in the developing world, including in Eastern Europe.

[Dr. Shane]

The problem of Church growth in the US and Europe is not limited to the Adventist church. I do not believe the decline in church growth is due to evolution being taught nor is it because the church maintains the Sola Scriptura doctrine. For the most part, I think the Adventist church in North America fails to reach out and meet the needs in their community. The churches with the most active community service programs are the churches that are seeing the healthiest growth.

[Bravus]

[WayneV]

The church is the only culprit. It consistently focuses on political and social issues to the detriment of the Great Commandments and the Great Commission.

[Tom Wetmore]

And the most effective community service programs are the ones custom built to meet the specifc needs of the specific community. And that is as varied as the communities in which we should find ourselves. Not every community needs a huge food and used clothing depot (traditional Dorcas). And not every community has the priority need of stop smoking clinic and vegetarian cookery classes. But every community has some need that we could be serving.

[BobRyan]

Ham is a believer in Sola Scriptura. Integrating evolution into the teaching of the church certainly does harm that doctrine. Whether or not it is the reason for the decline in church attendance is quite another subject. I think there a quite a number of issues that have driven down church attendance and churches compromising on creation is probably not the greatest of them.

It is interesting that the British Centre for Science and Education appears to take a different view of it. Like Richard Dawkins, and Darwin, and Provine and P.C Meyers and ... they all seem to see the link that Ellen White claimed to see between the destruction of Christianity and Darwinism.

I find it amazing that you get agreement pretty much across the board on that point.

in Christ,

Bob