Just what IS the adventist church currently?

[Dr. Rich]

Redwood wrote: “IF we could keep the commandments .... we would not need the sacrifice of Jesus.”

I must disagree with you here. The penalty of death that Adam was suppose to receive NEVER happened to Adam—for Jesus’ death is what bonded Adam from receiving this penalty at the time it was suppose to happen. And no, Adam’s natural death was not this penalty. Adam was going to die anyway because he was created mortal. The ONLY thing that would keep him living was the tree of life. Remove Adam from it and the natural death would happen—but this was NOT the penalty.

Jesus’ death was not to remove any sin from the world. Too many people are mistaken about this and think grace will save everyone when the opposite is the truth. The death of Jesus paid the penalty not only for Adam, but also for anyone who overcomes sin. Part of this requirement is keeping all of the ten commandments—the other requirement is recorded by Jesus and that is knowing the truth for it is only in knowing the real truth that we can get rid of the lies from Satan’s destructive confusion given to us by people who have claimed to be apostles of Jesus Christ but have found to be false (Rev. 2:2) Satan is not called “The Great Deceiver” because he is not good at it!

[wayfinder]

The process of removing sin is called "scantification"

John17:17 "Sanctify them in the truth; Your word is truth.

John 3:21 "But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God."

[Neil D]

The Law does not curse you with death, it gives you life by making you a member of the Kingdom of Heaven.

Interesting concepts.....Here's a thought...Why do Christians follow Jesus and use Him as a model rather than follow the law/10 commandments?

[Musicman1228]

Redwood,

Who said those were the only those two choices? Keeping the Law shows that you have made a Covenant with God to be a member of His Kingdom. It is proof of citizenship. Jesus said, "Be perfect, even as your Father in Heaven is perfect." Then we call Jesus a liar by saying that it is impossible to be perfect. If it was impossible then why didn't Jesus say, "I'd like you to be perfect like the Father, but I know you can't so don't worry about it, I'll die for your sins so you don't have to become righteous to have eternal life". Unfortunately for most Christians this is what they believe Jesus said, and because of this they will find themselves outside of the City looking in at the end of the 1000 years in Heaven.

[Neil D]

Redwood,

Who said those were the only those two choices? Keeping the Law shows that you have made a Covenant with God to be a member of His Kingdom. It is proof of citizenship. Jesus said, "Be perfect, even as your Father in Heaven is perfect." Then we call Jesus a liar by saying that it is impossible to be perfect. If it was impossible then why didn't Jesus say, "I'd like you to be perfect like the Father, but I know you can't so don't worry about it, I'll die for your sins so you don't have to become righteous to have eternal life". Unfortunately for most Christians this is what they believe Jesus said, and because of this they will find themselves outside of the City looking in at the end of the 1000 years in Heaven.

Wow...."proof of citizenship" is keeping the Law.....And here I thought that proof of citizenship was Jesus given when Jesus died at the cross..All we are required to do was accept it....

[fccool]

Both, wayfinder and Dr. Rich. I don't discount that we should keep 10 commandments. What I doubt is that you actually keeping them. None of people on this earth do... NONE.

Example. Being faithful to your wife means you are faithful to her. If you cheated on her ONCE... it means that the marriage can be technically nullified. You can ask for forgiveness, but DID YOU KEEP THE FIDELITY? No!

Now, compare the marriage to the Christian life . People say that they "keep 10 commandments" and they are lying right to your face, because they don't think of it as marriage relationship... and don't approach it with humility. It's a very proud statement to make, mainly because if you break one at one point of time. If you lie, if you lust for a good or a women, or if you neglect to keep the Sabbath holy the way it mean to be ... YOU BREAK THEM ALL... which means YOU FAILED TO KEEP THEM .

So, ironically... we criticize other for not keeping the Sabbath holy, while in reality we break many of the commandments on occasion. And I think you guys/girls would agree that you do.

To answer your question... YES I find it difficult to keep the commandments in light of the things that you omit to UNDERLINE AND BOLD the word ALWAYS

If you don't always keep them, then how is it that you keep them? It's like saying that you are faithful to your wife, and keep your marriage promises, but you fail and sleep around once in a while.

Or relationship with God is not the way you describe it to be. Our relationship with God is based on Him constantly forgiving us, and us learning from our mistakes and His forgiveness... to avoid these mistakes. It's NOT based on "KEEPING THE CODE" , because we don't.

Because if you say that you keep it, then Bible calls you a liar , ironically. We are to keep the commandments in spirit and in love, for all law is summed up in two...

Love God with all...

And love your neighbor as yourself...

That's what we are to learn. Sure, the 10 commandments show us how to, but they say nothing about being unforgiving or hate , for example.

So, I suggest you re-examine your relationship with God . You can't earn His grace. His grace enables and constantly cleanses and transforms us. But arrogantly claiming that you keep the law is akin the OT Israel saying that they will keep everything that God asked them to do.

[Dr. Rich]

fccool, your post was very good. Using the analogy of marriage is what God also has done and makes it easier to understand. It takes two parties to make a marriage. Both agree to keep the covenant so that trust is built upon this promise.

But the problem with a marriage here on earth is that mistakes are made and if one party is caught in a lie, then trust breaks down. If anyone had a perfect marriage I would like to have known about it. I know I don’t, but that does not keep me from keeping the marriage vow.

Israel professed to God that they would keep this covenant and God accepted their vow. Even when they goofed, God would let them know what the problem(s) were by the words of the prophets. Israel returned to keeping that vow many times and the relationship grew. But when Israel made a clear and intentional decision to break the vow, then God had no other choice but to divorce them. But—He then gave them another chance because of His wonderful love and grace (forgiveness).

So, here is the thing: We profess to keep the commandments and if we make a mistake, God will forgive us. I will agree with you that no one here is perfect—yet. That will only happen when the 144k and the 5 wise become sealed by God. Stay tuned!

[Neil D]

So, guys [Dr. Rich and Fccool], are you saying that we, the SDA church, is a church of legalism or a church of trust? Do we "keep" the law in order to preserve trust, or do we "keep" the law in order to show our behavior is legal?

The reason I ask, gentlemen, is that if this board is a cross section of the church, then when I look on this board and see conspiracy theorys, legalism and the insistance that conservatism is the proper way to do things, I would tend to believe then, that the church, as a church has failed it's commission,and it's purpose for simply existing...

Would you gentlemen agree with that?

[Neil D]

Redwood,

Who said those were the only those two choices? Keeping the Law shows that you have made a Covenant with God to be a member of His Kingdom. It is proof of citizenship. [snip]

This is a perversion of the Good News...

A covenant is a documented agreement of trust. Ratification was done by Jesus' sacrifice on the cross. To break the covenant, it is necessary to break faith/trust with the other party, ...in this case, God.

[Dr. Rich]

Neil D, I find that without a trusting relationship, keeping a vow is just legalism-but what comes first? One can 'keep' the vow I suppose if they act like a veggie--or brain dead. But then that's no fun either. However, the ratification that you wrote about being the death on the cross was not the final ratification--was it?

Since we are talking about trust, as a professional trustee for many years I see what Jesus did on the cross in a different manner.

Adam clearly did not obey. Penalty was execution on that day. Christ stepped in and made a trust (contract) that we could call a 'constructive trust'--meaning that there were conditions that had to be met in the future. At first, Adam and Eve were the initial beneficiaries of this trust. But the conditions for being a beneficiary was that one must overcome sin and be righteous.

Yes, Jesus’ death ratified the trust contract—but with only those who met the conditions as a beneficiary. But now this trust is not a constructive trust anymore thereby making it a full trust because of the ratification. People living after the ratification can also become a beneficiary, but only if they meet the conditions in the trust document—the words of Jesus given to us by His eyewitnesses.

But here is what people are forgetting—Jesus’ death was only the ratification—not the winding down of the trust to where the beneficiaries receive the corpus (body-salvation)! This only comes at the end. Yes, people can choose to become a beneficiary, but they must do so by becoming righteous. Enjoy!

[fccool]

There are several problems with the above view Biblically. To put that view in everyday term... Jesus makes the DOWNPAYMENT, but we are to make sure paying the monthly installments till the day we die.

First of all, it gives men the power to "pre-judge" those who are saved and those who are not . Ironically, we will be very surprised when we get there and see people who we thought were absolutely doomed! Only God decides the Salvation issue... not people.

I think that the issue of "keeping the salvation" is the issue of the willingness. All of us are born INDIVIDUALS, yet we develop a PERSON... which original meaning of a PERSON is a "mask". We wear masks for too long, thinking that we are "the mask"... you know, our jobs, our citizenship and our social status, our denomination religious preferrences. Personally, being a Christian is going back and putting THE PERSON aside, recognizing the corruption of THE PERSON, and getting back and re-evaluating the concept of the INDIVIDUAL, the original mind and the way things aught to function.

There are people who are "Christians" today, but they don't know it yet. They honestly searching for God and truth, but they have no means to find it.

Then there are denominational "Christians", who think that they have it all together, and they know everything and how we are to live, yet they are PERSONS... MASKS, and refuse to evaluate the their INDIVIDUAL. They go through the motion and traditions of the church, they worship the worship and their understanding, yet they don't love. They grow bitter in criticism of people around them. It's a terrible place to be, I know first hand .

I think that SDA church needs to be the CHRISTIAN church first, and ADVENTISTS second. We forget it, and it becomes about Sabbath and 10 Commandments, and the State of the dead, and the 1260 years... and not about genuine love, forgiveness, and continual search and defense of truth, no matter what inconveniences it will bring.

Church today is very... CONVENIENT, and it never was until the recent history .

[fccool]

The law is NEVER the basis for the covenent! It NEVER WAS! Look at the Abraham. He was a lawbreaker, even after meeting God. He lied about his wife being his sister, and he did not trust God because fear God the better of him. Yet, no matter how weak his faith was, his obedience in FEW things was accounted to his as righteousness for ALL.

The key is WILLINGNESS. If you are struggling with sin, you are still a Christian! That's one of the best ways to know. There will be sins that you will only overcome in death... but that's a reason to be evermore thankful to God for giving you strength to struggle.

[Neil D]

Neil D, I find that without a trusting relationship, keeping a vow is just legalism-but what comes first? One can 'keep' the vow I suppose if they act like a veggie--or brain dead. But then that's no fun either. However, the ratification that you wrote about being the death on the cross was not the final ratification--was it?

[Musicman1228]

Neil D,

You are correct in saying that the Covenant is a documented agreement of trust. We know that God always keeps His part of the agreement, but is this a unilateral agreement - one way from God to us? Is it a bi-lateral agreement in which God states the requirements of the Covenant for Himself and us, and then tells us not to worry about our part of the bargain, that He will take care of our side of the Covenant for us? Do we not have any responsibility to demonstrate our commitment to ratify (your word) that Covenant, or is it everyone included regardless of their level of commitment?

[Neil D]

Then there are denominational "Christians", who think that they have it all together, and they know everything and how we are to live, yet they are PERSONS... MASKS, and refuse to evaluate the their INDIVIDUAL. They go through the motion and traditions of the church, they worship the worship and their understanding, yet they don't love. They grow bitter in criticism of people around them. It's a terrible place to be, I know first hand .

I think that SDA church needs to be the CHRISTIAN church first, and ADVENTISTS second. We forget it, and it becomes about Sabbath and 10 Commandments, and the State of the dead, and the 1260 years... and not about genuine love, forgiveness, and continual search and defense of truth, no matter what inconveniences it will bring.

Church today is very... CONVENIENT, and it never was until the recent history .

I like the idea of individual Christians....personally, I think of "quality Christians" [aka quality people]...that is, those who live a quality life in the station that they are given. I think that there needs to be more emphasis on qualitys rather than behaviors. After all, we are children of the King, and as such, should reflect His Spirit of compassion, love, kindness, generousity, humility. Too often, we can not due to our bitterness, our poor outlook on life, how we actually become draining to people...How could Jesus attract children if He was like that????

oh, and how does doctrine affect quality of life? In my VERY HUMBLE opinion, it never did....

[Neil D]

Neil D,

You are correct in saying that the Covenant is a documented agreement of trust. We know that God always keeps His part of the agreement, but is this a unilateral agreement - one way from God to us? Is it a bi-lateral agreement in which God states the requirements of the Covenant for Himself and us, and then tells us not to worry about our part of the bargain, that He will take care of our side of the Covenant for us? Do we not have any responsibility to demonstrate our commitment to ratify (your word) that Covenant, or is it everyone included regardless of their level of commitment?

Since our very natures betray us, how do you expect God to make an agreement of trust with any one?

Let's face it , musicman...God makes covenants with anyone who seeks Him...He made a covenant with Abraham and he wasn't even a Christian. Ahbraham had a relationship with God in which Abraham was to learning to trust God. God made promises to Abraham, and Abraham was willing to seek and follow God. There was no conditions other than learning of and trust/seeking God.

Any statement in which we are "to demonstrate our commitment to ratify that Covenant" is a form of legalism. If you feel that God is making you seek a harlot for a wife, by all means, go for it...just make sure that you really are seeking God first and formost in your life and that the harlot that you chose for a wife is one that God has given to you....[The harlot illustration is to show how God used a prophet to illustrate a wayward nation and a trusting seeking heart after God. See Hosea]

How does this affect our current church? We seek a form of Godliness but deny the power of God. We seek power, but deny the responsiblity of being the quality person that God desires of us...We seek the power of the Holy Spirit, but deny the quality of humbleness from ourselves and we seek to glorify ourselves rather than Jesus Christ.

So, who are we as a church?

I suspect that we are a bunch of hypocrits....And while I would love to point to you as being a hypocrit [my nature likes to show itself as self righteous], I think I can say that I have come close enough to Jesus to feel a bit uncomfortable with that statement. So, I must look at myself. Someone recently said that I am not here to change others, but rather, I need to seek change myself. I suggest you do the same.

[Musicman1228]

Thank you, Neil, for your council. For the record I did not join this forum to try to change anyone into anything. I have sufficient struggle with myself in my effort to become Christ-like without having to be responsible for anyone else.

I just don't see things your way and never will. I have heard at times people being asked the question, "What kind of Christian are you?" When I am asked that question my answer usually startles people, especially Christians. You see, most Christians are as they are because of the New Testament, especially Paul. So when I answer them there is usually a time of explanation following my response. So here is my answer and my response:

If I am Christian I am an Old Testament Christian. And in that I am following the example of Jesus Christ. When confronting the Pharisees or answering questions, or teaching a lesson Jesus Christ the Son of God used ONLY the Old Testament Scripture as His source, because there was no New Testament yet written. If it is good enough for Him it should be good enough for me. I also use the words of Jesus in the New Testament and His history as related only by those who were with Him for the one year that He ministered on earth. I also use the prophecies in Revelation because the testimony of John has been proven reliable in other forms and is proving reliable in that form.

It is a conversation starter, to say the least.

As to being a hypocrite; At one time in my life I was a child actor, so I have first hand knowledge of what it takes to be a hypocrite. A hypocrite is an actor, and we usually associate actors with the word "liar". This is not necessarily so. As an actor I had to study and know my part so well as to be able to 'play' that part convincingly in the play in which I was performing. I became that character, so much so that it was sometimes very difficult for me as a child to put aside that role after I was finished with the play. I would carry the role to grade school and it could take days for it to wear off, much to the chagrin of my teachers.

So just being called a hypocrite does not make me a liar, especially when I am trying to become 'Christ like'. The difference is that as an actor I must put off the character I was playing at the end of the day. But in becoming Christ-like I will not put off the character of Jesus because I will have become sealed into His character. Learning this role takes hard work and dedication, diligent study and perseverance. It is called the process of Sanctification.

The difference lays in the type of actor/hypocrite you are. A method actor tries to become the person he is playing by feeling the same perceived emotions as the person he is playing. A character actor studies the person he is to play in physical detail, such as gait, facial expressions, mannerisms, gestures, etc., and then mimics those exactly thereby appearing to be the real person.

The problem with both method acting and character acting is that there is the real danger of identifying so closely with the role that you risk thinking that you have really become that person. In that case becoming like Christ morphs into believing you are Christ, and there is the rub. Jesus even spoke of this when He said:

For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and they will lead many astray. Matt.24:5.

This is the most insidious and deceptive form of acting/hypocrisy; where someone has so convinced themselves that they are so attuned to Jesus Christ that they just "can't be wrong". And this attitude infects other true believers to such an extent that they will not believe you when you point out the error in what this "Christ like" person is saying. They will reject you and what you are trying to warn them about because the person they are following fulfills the 'image' of the true Christ that they have in their heart, which was given them by a person that is a simulacrum of the original (mirror image-looks like the real thing but is 180 deg. out of phase).

This is what I see happening in the Christian church in general and the SDA church in particular with both Paul, EGW and others. My warning is sincerely given not because I want to disabuse anyone of their 'faith' but because Satan is seeking to destroy everyone, and will use any and every means to do so. This is why (for safety sake) I will not use anyone but the real Jesus Christ, His words and Spirit as proof for my soul. Following anyone else is like seeing Jesus through a looking glass.

[Dr. Rich]

Yes fccool, I hear that loud and clear and I tend to agree. It reminds me of the song about being too heavenly minded for not being any earthly good. LOL!

And Neil D--wow, this is a hard one. It does take some balancing act to be a nice Christian and not offend anyone, yet present new ideas or truth that one has learned--just to bounce off the wall to see if anything sticks.

Blessings

[fccool]

As to being a hypocrite; At one time in my life I was a child actor, so I have first hand knowledge of what it takes to be a hypocrite.....

So just being called a hypocrite does not make me a liar, especially when I am trying to become 'Christ like'.

Musicman, I don't think the problem is with people trying to be Christlike. The problem is with people who think that they ARE MORE Christlike because they do certain things.

Not only that, but then they make sure that other know how much more Christlike they are... not by showing Christ to them, but by telling everyone else how they are to live to be more Christlike .

Hypocricy is exactly that... not practicing what you play in church. People put on that "Christlike mask" in the correct environment, because they know what it is that is expected of them... the right phrases to utter... but in reality they are different people who they are playing.

PS, there are no OT or NT Christians, there are just Christians. God does not make the distinction, then why should you ?

It's not your perfect obedience that is pleasing to God, but it's your willingness to learn. Sure, Jonah did his job, but do you think God was pleased with him?

[Musicman1228]

fccool,

Point taken about Christians being from both the O.T. and N.T. My point was that most Christians view themselves as coming from the N.T. perspective of Paul; I was pointing out the fact that Jesus did not come to earth to point people to Christianity, He came to point them to God.

[Dr. Rich]

And musicman, look what it got Him--it got Him killed. So should we not be like Jesus just so we can get along with others who believe and practice all sorts of lies? Why be a kook and a 'know-it-all' and cause people to make fun of you? If this is knowing the real truth and practicing the truth, then it sure wouldn't be fun--would it?

[Neil D]

Musicman-

What jumps out at me with your post is that I never really offered counsel...I suggested that "you do the same" only after I explained that the only person that can be changed was me...And since this thread is about the church and what it is, I don't know how it was highjacked into talking about you....well, it looks like it got highjacked...

So explain to me how you have become the Adventist church....

or are you telling me that it is more conservative and doesn't know how to live spiritually and can only do good works like exegesis and fine tune the Revelation mysteries to even more fine...and produce more conspiracy theories?

As for the hypocrite/actor illustrations....well, speaking as a theater director and former actor, I disagree with your analogy....You see, while you pooh-hoo the bad, it can also illustrate the good as well...An actor can identfy with a ccharacter and do better himself...And God used Christians in my drama group...We didn't use actors....because they were not necessarily Christians....

[Dr. Rich]

NeilD, to get back to the original question now that I have taken time to think about issues here, I can only find one religious group that fits all of the characteristics of everything prophesied by God for the kingdom that will last forever. Please refer to page two of this thread for the biblical sites.

Right now in time, the SDA Church is spiritually dead and still being mislead by the infiltration of servants of Satan who’s intent is to put down and stop every attempt from the real bondservants of God to present NEW truth. Truth is absolute and is singular. This real truth will stand up to every attempt to quash it since it comes from the Father to the Son to the disciples who wrote it down so that the few in this organization can read it and understand it with the help of the Holy Spirit. The chain of evidence has never been broken so this evidence is proof for this testimony, the testimony of Jesus.

It is important to remember that Satan’s only hope for survival is to deceive people into believing words from those who he has already deceived are the truth. People all over the world now believe in these people, such as Mohammed, Buddha, Nostradamas, Joseph Smith, Luther, the many popes, Ellen White and even Saul/Paul. Their words are soothing and make it easy for people to falsely believe they have been saved.

Anyway, this is how I see the SDA Church today. If this is wrong, I would love to have it shown to me. Enjoy!

[John317]

It is important to remember that Satan’s only hope for survival is to deceive people into believing words from those who he has already deceived are the truth. People all over the world now believe in these people, such as Mohammed, Buddha, Nostradamas, Joseph Smith, Luther, the many popes, Ellen White and even Saul/Paul. Their words are soothing and make it easy for people to falsely believe they have been saved.

Anyway, this is how I see the SDA Church today. If this is wrong, I would love to have it shown to me. Enjoy!

I wouldn't want to be in a church connected with or led by any of the above except the Apostle Paul and Ellen White. If I believed the church was led by a false prophet or by someone not of God, I'd get out of it. I joined it because I believe its doctrines and because I believe it's a true church that God raised up to give the world the last-day message. If I become convinced that this is not true, or that Ellen White was a false prophet, I'd be out in a heart-beat. I wouldn't continue to call myself an SDA and yet try and persuade people to believe that Paul is a false apostle, that Ellen White is a Jezebel, or that the church's doctrines are wrong.

[Dr. Rich]

John 317, please remember that I did not give the prophecy--it came straght from Jesus--all of them. If I can be shown that I am wrong by using the words of Jesus then I will gladly change my view. So have a try at it instead of complaining that I am still a staunch SDA member! Your rant does not phase me at all.