Romans 3: 7-- Paul: "But if through my lie...."

[John317]

What is Paul saying in Romans 3: 7?

First let's read the verse in context in 3 different translations to understand Paul's meaning:

1) Amplified Bible-- Romans 3: 3-8

What if some did not believe and were without faith? Does their lack of faith and their faithlessness nullify and make ineffective and void the faithfulness of God and His fidelity [to His Word]?

4 By no means! Let God be found true though every human being is false and a liar, as it is written, That You may be justified and shown to be upright in what You say, and prevail when You are judged [by sinful men].(A)

5 But if our unrighteousness thus establishes and exhibits the righteousness of God, what shall we say? That God is unjust and wrong to inflict His wrath upon us [Jews]? I speak in a [purely] human way.

6 By no means! Otherwise, how could God judge the world?

7 But [you say] if through my falsehood God's integrity is magnified and advertised and abounds to His glory, why am I still being judged as a sinner?

8 And why should we not do evil that good may come?--as some slanderously charge us with teaching. Such [false teaching] is justly condemned by them.

2) English Standard Version-- Romans 3: 5-8:

But if our unrighteousness serves to show the righteousness of God, what shall we say? That God is unrighteous to inflict wrath on us? ( I speak in a human way.) 6 By no means! For then how could God judge the world? 7 But if through my lie God’s truth abounds to his glory, why am I still being condemned as a sinner? 8 And why not do evil that good may come?—as some people slanderously charge us with saying. Their condemnation is just.

3) New Century Version-- Romans 3: 5-8

5 When we do wrong, that shows more clearly that God is right. So can we say that God is wrong to punish us? (I am talking as people might talk.)6 No! If God could not punish us, he could not judge the world.

7 A person might say, "When I lie, it really gives him glory, because my lie shows God's truth. So why am I judged a sinner?"8 It would be the same to say, "We should do evil so that good will come." Some people find fault with us and say we teach this, but they are wrong and deserve the punishment they will receive.

NOTE: Verse 7 is a hypothetical situation which Paul is using to show the false reasoning of some people who would say that since our sins make God's grace stand out more clearly, we should sin (or lie) more often. Paul obviously does not agree with this false argument. His conclusion is that people who would argue in this way are justly condemned (v. 8).

[oldsailor29]

Is this what some people call neo-platonism?

[John317]

Not as in the philosophical school, Neoplatonism.

Yet Paul's rhetorical style of questions and answers does remind us somewhat of the dialectical method of Plato, but Paul's subject itself has nothing to do with either Platonism or Neoplatonism.

[Dr. Rich]

Consider 2Cor. 12:16 in the light of Rom. 3:7. Perhaps Gal. 1:20 and 1st Thess. 2:3 too. Clearly someone (and Paul called them the pillers of the church) must have been declaring that Paul was a liar and a false apostle for Paul to write his defense to these charges.

[John317]

Have you checked out Romans 1: 9?

There is no doubt that some people accused Paul of lying. There were many factions in the church, and of course there was the circumcision party who opposed Paul. There were also the early gnostics. All of these people had reason to claim that Paul was a liar. But I see no evidence that James, Peter or John were accusing Paul of lying.

A) 2 Cor. 12: 16-- (giving verses 14-18 to show context)-- English Standard Version:

14 Here for the third time I am ready to come to you. And I will not be a burden, for I seek not what is yours but you. For children are not obligated to save up for their parents, but parents for their children. 15 I will most gladly spend and be spent for your souls. If I love you more, am I to be loved less? 16 But granting that I myself did not burden you, I was crafty, you say, and got the better of you by deceit. 17 Did I take advantage of you through any of those whom I sent to you? 18 I urged Titus to go, and sent the brother with him. Did Titus take advantage of you? Did we not act in the same spirit? Did we not take the same steps?

Gal. 1: 20--- (giving verses 18-24)-- ESV:

18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to visit Cephas and remained with him fifteen days. 19 But I saw none of the other apostles except James the Lord’s brother. 20 (In what I am writing to you, before God, I do not lie!) 21 Then I went into the regions of Syria and Cilicia. 22 And I was still unknown in person to the churches of Judea that are in Christ. 23 They only were hearing it said, "He who used to persecute us is now preaching the faith he once tried to destroy." 24 And they glorified God because of me.

C) 1 Thess. 2: 3-- (giving verses verses 1-7)-- ESV:

1 For you yourselves know, brothers, that our coming to you was not in vain. 2 But though we had already suffered and been shamefully treated at Philippi, as you know, we had boldness in our God to declare to you the gospel of God in the midst of much conflict. 3 For our appeal does not spring from error or impurity or any attempt to deceive, 4 but just as we have been approved by God to be entrusted with the gospel, so we speak, not to please man, but to please God who tests our hearts. 5 For we never came with words of flattery, as you know, nor with a pretext for greed— God is witness. 6 Nor did we seek glory from people, whether from you or from others, though we could have made demands as apostles of Christ. 7 But we were gentle among you, like a nursing mother taking care of her own children.

[TreeOfLife]

Applying the Text to the Here and Now…

What is Paul saying in Romans 3: 7?

First let's read the verse in context in 3 different translations to understand Paul's meaning:

1) Amplified Bible-- Romans 3: 3-8

What if some did not believe and were without faith? Does their lack of faith and their faithlessness nullify and make ineffective and void the faithfulness of God and His fidelity [to His Word]?

4 By no means! Let God be found true though every human being is false and a liar, as it is written, That You may be justified and shown to be upright in what You say, and prevail when You are judged [by sinful men].(A)

5 But if our unrighteousness thus establishes and exhibits the righteousness of God, what shall we say? That God is unjust and wrong to inflict His wrath upon us [Jews]? I speak in a [purely] human way.

6 By no means! Otherwise, how could God judge the world?

7 But [you say] if through my falsehood God's integrity is magnified and advertised and abounds to His glory, why am I still being judged as a sinner?

8 And why should we not do evil that good may come?--as some slanderously charge us with teaching. Such [false teaching] is justly condemned by them.

2) English Standard Version-- Romans 3: 5-8:

But if our unrighteousness serves to show the righteousness of God, what shall we say? That God is unrighteous to inflict wrath on us? ( I speak in a human way.) 6 By no means! For then how could God judge the world? 7 But if through my lie God’s truth abounds to his glory, why am I still being condemned as a sinner? 8 And why not do evil that good may come?—as some people slanderously charge us with saying. Their condemnation is just.

3) New Century Version-- Romans 3: 5-8

5 When we do wrong, that shows more clearly that God is right. So can we say that God is wrong to punish us? (I am talking as people might talk.)6 No! If God could not punish us, he could not judge the world.

7 A person might say, "When I lie, it really gives him glory, because my lie shows God's truth. So why am I judged a sinner?"8 It would be the same to say, "We should do evil so that good will come." Some people find fault with us and say we teach this, but they are wrong and deserve the punishment they will receive.

NOTE: Verse 7 is a hypothetical situation which Paul is using to show the false reasoning of some people who would say that since our sins make God's grace stand out more clearly, we should sin (or lie) more often. Paul obviously does not agree with this false argument. His conclusion is that people who would argue in this way are justly condemned (v. 8).

[John317]

Shalom,

Tree of Life.

There's a difference between asking someone, "What is being said in Romans 3: 7?" and asking, "What does it mean to you?"

First and most importantly, it is essential to know what the verse is actually saying; then once you know what the verse is saying, you go on to discover how the Holy Spirit is applying it to your life in the present circumstances.

What Romans 3: 7 (or any other verse) actually says is more or less objective. On the other hand, what it "means to you" in the sense in which you spoke of it in your previous post is more subjective than objective.

That is why people often see a text differently as far as its meaning is concerned -- or how the Holy Spirit is illuminating it. It is not because the text actually says many different, contradictory things. It is because the Holy Spirit--or perhaps our own, overwrought imagination-- is using a particular text that has a particular meaning to give us insight or a lesson that the original writer probably never intended and is not in the objective significance of the text itself.

The problem arises when people are not aware of the difference between these two ways of understanding a text. Or when they even deny there is a difference.

[Robert]

Verse 7 is a hypothetical situation which Paul is using to show the false reasoning of some people who would say that since our sins make God's grace stand out more clearly, we should sin (or lie) more often. Paul obviously does not agree with this false argument. His conclusion is that people who would argue in this way are justly condemned (v. 8).

Sounds responsible!

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Verse 7 is a hypothetical situation which Paul is using to show the false reasoning of some people who would say that since our sins make God's grace stand out more clearly, we should sin (or lie) more often. Paul obviously does not agree with this false argument. His conclusion is that people who would argue in this way are justly condemned (v. 8).

Sounds responsible!

Yes, and that means, of course, that the sin/s that Paul speaks of are things that people's choices have some control over. We are not being forced to sin. They are obviously due to decisions and choices we make, for otherwise there would be no point in saying we should not do more sins. Through faith in Christ, the Holy Spirit is provided to believers so that we can resist all temptations to sin.

[wayfinder]

Is that why Paul says "if through my lie..." "why am I still being judged a sinner". Who in their right mind would judge Paul a sinner? It sounds like Paul is defending his theology, otherwise he whould use the third person we/our or in general a lie... would anyone be judge. Paul sounds exactly like someone justifying his message against outside accusation. I am sure you can understand that.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: John317

Verse 7 is a hypothetical situation which Paul is using to show the false reasoning of some people who would say that since our sins make God's grace stand out more clearly, we should sin (or lie) more often. Paul obviously does not agree with this false argument. His conclusion is that people who would argue in this way are justly condemned (v. 8).

Sounds responsible!

Apparently I didn't read what I typed ....I meant to say, "sounds reasonable"!

[John317]

New Century Version--

Romans 3:7-- A person might say, "When I lie, it really gives him glory, because my lie shows God's truth. So why am I judged a sinner?"8 It would be the same to say, "We should do evil so that good will come." Some people find fault with us and say we teach this, but they are wrong and deserve the punishment they will receive.

NOTE-- Paul is not saying people are accusing him of lying or even of being a sinner (although Paul would not deny being a great sinner). Paul is not saying he has been lying. It has nothing to do with Paul personally. Paul is anticipating these words in the mouth of a hypothetical person who might make this argument when he hears Paul's teachings. (In fact, it may very well be that Paul had heard these very words before in the mouth of some people who misunderstood or opposed his work.) Paul has just said that our unrighteousness demonstrates the righteousness of God, and Paul realizes that there will be some unstable people who will use his teaching to encourage lawlessness. Paul does the same in Rom. 6: 1, 15. Compare 2 Peter 3: 15., 16.

[Dr. Rich]

Paul sounds a little bit like Nixon here: "I am not a liar"

[John317]

Wow-- that is terrible, Dr. Rich. How could you. Tell me you don't mean it. Please!

That is saying that if a person says he's not lying, it almost automatically is understood to mean he IS lying.

[Dr. Rich]

How many times have you heard a person who has been talking to you for some time suddenly say "tell you the truth"? Does this mean what this person has been saying all along has been a lie? Who knows? People lie so much now they don't even know they are lying I guess. However, it's my opinion that Paul sincerely thought he was telling the truth. This must be the reason why almost every book or letter he wrote he was always defending himself from what the pillers of the church (THE WAY) were telling people about him.

[LifeHiscost]

Is this what some people call neo-platonism?

Not in my mind.

[LifeHiscost]

Consider 2Cor. 12:16 in the light of Rom. 3:7. Perhaps Gal. 1:20 and 1st Thess. 2:3 too. Clearly someone (and Paul called them the pillers of the church) must have been declaring that Paul was a liar and a false apostle for Paul to write his defense to these charges.

Every time a Truth that might possibly reveal the love of Jesus (God) for the individual soul, some one will come up with a straw man argument to draw away from the real reason of God's purposes for deliverance to His kingdom. This might be one reason why some of Paul's reasonings seem to go on and on and are difficult to understand, because he was constantly bombarded by those not interested in the least in the salvation of the souls of others.

His patience for those who make those arguments, as indicated by Paul's lengthy responses, is more an indication of God's desire to save even the most obstinate, than indicative of any fault in Paul's effort to bring Jesus' love to them.

"Even as I please all men in all things, not seeking mine own profit, but the profit of many, that they may be saved."1 Corinthians 10:33 KJV

"For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;"1 Timothy 2:3-5 KJV

Regards!

[wayfinder]

1Co 5:5 I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

1Ti 1:20 Among these are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan, so that they will be taught not to blaspheme.

And if he is unsuccessful on his own, he turns them over to Satan so they can be saved in spite of themselves.

[Robert]

1Co 5:5 I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

1Ti 1:20 Among these are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan, so that they will be taught not to blaspheme.

And if he is unsuccessful on his own, he turns them over to Satan so they can be saved in spite of themselves.

All Paul means is let him learn the hard way....Let him reap what he sows so that he might learn and be saved.....

[LifeHiscost]

How many times have you heard a person who has been talking to you for some time suddenly say "tell you the truth"? Does this mean what this person has been saying all along has been a lie? Who knows? People lie so much now they don't even know they are lying I guess. However, it's my opinion that Paul sincerely thought he was telling the truth. This must be the reason why almost every book or letter he wrote he was always defending himself from what the pillers of the church (THE WAY) were telling people about him.

OTOH:

"To the pure [in heart and conscience] all things are pure, but to the defiled and corrupt and unbelieving nothing is pure; their very minds and consciences are defiled and polluted."Titus 1:15 AMP

Regards!

[wayfinder]

Why didn't he just say that. Why did he say I turned him over to Satan, would you say that, I am sure you wouldn't. Paul sounds like he has an arrangement with Satan to help in the salvation process. Another thing, Paul says in the 1 Cor. text, for destruction of his flesh so his spirit may be saved, this sounds very Gnostic in nature, where the flesh is wicked and the spirit is devine.

[Robert]

for destruction of his flesh [nature] so his spirit [life] may be saved, this sounds very Gnostic in nature, where the flesh is wicked and the spirit is devine.

[wayfinder]

So the flesh is wicked and the spirit is righteous. So the spirit of man is a concious entity.

[Robert]

So the flesh is wicked and the spirit is righteous. So the spirit of man is a concious entity.

"for destruction of his flesh [nature] so his spirit [life] may be saved"

Q: If I pour arsenic at the mouth of a pristine river what happens?

A: I pollute the river and every living thing that uses the river dies.

You and I are products of the fall. When Adam sinned his humanity became polluted with "iniquity". Instead of every fiber of his being reflecting God's agape love, Adam became bent towards himself. Now the love of self became the dominating force in his life.

Where does this "iniquity" reside?

Mark 7:21 For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, 22 greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. 23 All these evils come from inside and make a man 'unclean.'"

Rom 7:18 For I know that in me, that is, in my flesh [my body, my humanity], dwelleth no good thing

Rom 7:23 but I see another law [force, principle, power] at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members.

Our humanity, that with which we were born, has already been polluted with iniquity. At conception we received from our mother Adam's life passed down to us through procreation. Every fiber of our being is bent towards self. We are by nature selfish, self-centered and egocentric. Everything we do, outside walking in the Spirit, is done with ourselves in mind.

The fact you have a humanity indwelt with sin (the love of self) makes you a sinner. Because we are born spiritually dead we automatically sin outwardly, which proves that inwardly we are polluted with "self".

[Dr. Rich]

Robert, you just wrote a perfect argument why Jesus did not receave any DNA from Mary. For Jesus to be perfect, He could not have been any blood decendent of David. Isn't this right? (Sorry about changing the subject--but it fits.)