White Flight

[olger]

Why all this hot air on this board about what african americans need to do, when there is only one AA here: me. There's a reason for that I'm sure. I have never brought up the issue of slavery, reparations, none of that. If you have such great soloutions Ted, then set up a seminar, or lecture series. I'd drive to Bryan to hear and see if you man enough to do it. Personally I think you're just another clown with a cyber white sheet over your head.

`lo Kountz

Never heard of Lazarus, eh?

As to your black identity, if that has become your team, you're on the losing side. In Christ there is no racial boundaries, including Jews.

g

[olger]

Breaking news: Walter Williams (a black professor) has issued a proclamation forgiving all whites.

Quote:

Proclamation of Amnesty and Pardon Granted to

All Persons of European Descent

Whereas, Europeans kept my forebears in bondage some three centuries toiling without pay,

Whereas, Europeans ignored the human rights pledges of the Declaration of Independence and the United States Constitution,

Whereas, the Emancipation Proclamation, the Thirteenth and Fourteenth Amendments meant little more than empty words,

Therefore, Americans of European ancestry are guilty of great crimes against my ancestors and their progeny.

But, in the recognition Europeans themselves have been victims of various and sundry human rights violations to wit: the Norman Conquest, the Irish Potato Famine, Decline of the Hapsburg Dynasty, Napoleonic and Czarist adventurism, and gratuitous insults and speculations about the intelligence of Europeans of Polish descent,

I, Walter E. Williams, do declare full and general amnesty and pardon to all persons of European ancestry, for both their own grievances, and those of their forebears, against my people.

Therefore, from this day forward Americans of European ancestry can stand straight and proud knowing they are without guilt and thus obliged not to act like darn fools in their relationships with Americans of African ancestry.

Walter E. Williams, Gracious and Generous Grantor

There it is baby. The issue is over. Done. Ended. Kaput. Finished. Sealed. Terminated. Expired.

[lazarus]

Never heard of Lazarus, eh?

Oops Olger, you are wrong. I'm not African American!!!!

Quote:

As to your black identity, if that has become your team, you're on the losing side.

g

Please explain.

[olger]

Yo Laz.

1. Large oops. Are you black nonetheless..?

2. Already did.

rejoice always,

g

[lazarus]

Yo Laz.

1. Large oops. Are you black nonetheless..?

I'm and therefore......?

Quote:

2. Already did.

u did?

[Neil D]

Originally Posted By: Neil_D

Before you go off on me, and tell me that I am promoting the demise/dependance of the black man, I think you might concider that David in the bible sent 7 of Saul's "male relatives" to the Gebionites to be put to death, just for being a relative of Saul. They didn't deserve that, did they?

Quote:

After that, God answered prayer in behalf of the land.

See 2 Samuel 21. Therefore the sins of the Fathers will be born thru the sons as well.

Ummmm...Got to disagree with that last summation there, Neil.

That thought line was entirely refuted by God Himself in Ezekiel 18.

If you mean to say that the sins of the fathers produce consequences felt downstream in time by their descendants, that would be an accurate statement.

[Ted Oplinger]

Why all this hot air on this board about what african americans need to do, when there is only one AA here: me. There's a reason for that I'm sure. I have never brought up the issue of slavery, reparations, none of that. If you have such great soloutions Ted, then set up a seminar, or lecture series. I'd drive to Bryan to hear and see if you man enough to do it. Personally I think you're just another clown with a cyber white sheet over your head.

Amazing. A closing line like that is usually the indication I'm spot on, Kountzer, regardless of how well - or poorly - I phrased the observation.

You didn't bring up the subject. Others did. It seems every time the issue of "white flight" is brought up, the allusion of racism, and the reminder of the slavery issue, isn't very far behind. Such as it was with this thread.

Evidence the many posts decrying the bad attitudes of certain white congregations. Do all these posters have all the facts about said congregations? Likely, no. But in light of how the issue and debate is framed, such statements are taken to be the norm, not the exception.

I merely put forth a (lengthy) opinion that AA's aren't the only people who've gone through the tragedy, that every ethnicity has the potential for racism, and that whites (as a race) were also subject to that same tragedy many centuries ago.

Some simple, and historically verifiable, facts that are rather inconvenient to today's discussion of race issues. Perhaps they weren't put together as well as I would normally like (see Neil's post replying to me), but they aren't ignorable.

Now, I wind up making another lengthy reply.

As far as solutions go, I will second and promote those I've heard from certain AA leaders themselves. Unfortunately, they aren't very popular among their own. Seems they don't have the correct talking points. Evidence Walter Williams and Clarence Thomas.

Those who know me know I just don't back down on a difficult issue. And it seems I got under your skin a bit, Kountzer.

As far as setting up a seminar...maybe that would be just the ticket. BUT....since I'm not the right race, there's no street cred there, is there? Haven't done the time in suffering, have I? Again, that's the way the issue is set up to discuss. I shouldn't say anything about the issues, in your eyes.

That's not sarcasm there, but the simple but true observation - white people can't say or do a lot of things about things pertaining to any other ethnicity (including making valid observations and viewpoints about the issues), without drawing a statement similar to your closing statement.

Even if I should say all the correct observations, all it gets me is grief - unless it follows the worldy political talking points. That's the way the political premise is set up, isn't it? Get Biblical, get historical, and suddenly the label appears.

I won't be calling you any names,brother. I will, however, make a few more observations on the discussion.

Allow only a certain perspective, the right people, to dominate the discussion, right? Don't regard opposing viewpoints, opposing incidents, as having validity? Disregard them due to lack of "street cred", because they haven't "been there", right?

Look at your own words, Kountzer - you seem to indicate that since you didn't bring the issues up, they shouldn't be brought up at all. Maybe that wasn't your intent, but that is one way your statement can be rendered.

I made an unpopular viewpoint...so it's time to get heated up, cause people to change the subject.

Ridicule, slur, shout them down, make they go away.

Leave the issue to the "politically in", to those with the "correct cred", right?

Again - that's not sarcasm, but the sad truth. And people wonder why there's no healthy discussion on the issues at hand.

There is no benefit of the doubt extended to people like me, is there? After all, I'm the one you've labeled a "clown in a cyber white sheet"? Nice little slur there. I haven't - and won't label you.

Sorry to disappoint you, but I haven't left. I haven't backed down. I do full well know I'm not politically "in", with the right "cred" in your eyes...and I likely never will on this side of Christ's return.

We have a forum here labeled "Why We Don't Talk About..." because too many issues are framed in just this context, Kountzer. Including race issues.

Perhaps you have some intelligent thoughts as to resolving the aforementioned white flight? I'm listening...

[Ted Oplinger]

Hey Neil!

Thanks for the insight on the concepts.

My experiences on how people progress up - and down - the socio-economic scale is a bit different. I've personally worked with some who've come here from other lands, with little more than the clothes on their backs and knowing next to no English. They've now left my locale, and are doing much better than a great many Americans.

These acquaintances and friends come across the spectrum of nationality.

As far as the Jew goes, I am referring back to Exodus. After they left Egypt, God expressly forbade them to treat any other nationality as they had been treated by Egypt. I read that as it must have been on the minds of not a few descendants of Israel, else God would not have seen the need to address it in the 4th Commandment listed in Deuteronomy 5.

The concept is easily extended to any child of God from any ethnicity that experienced/is experiencing the same tragedy kind of Israel did at Pharoah's hands.

Quote:

To me, this is a weak point in your arguement...If bigotry exist in ourselves, it is our individual duty to root it out, would you not agree? Then why advance an arguement that sugar coats reverse discrimination within ourselves? Bigotry in any form is wrong...isn't it? Does it not promote the selfish interests of self?

Again, perhaps not worded as well as needed. Bigotry is wrong wherever it is found. That is the extension of the argument found in the Book of James (James 2:1-4). He uses the rich as an example, but replace rich/poor with any other socio-economic contrast pair (labor/management, degreed/non-degreed, black/white) and you get the same result: partiality and prejudice is sin, no matter how it gets served up.

Quote:

If we claim that there is reverse bigotry and we are angry that the man of color [and I am speaking of not only blacks here] gets OUR job thru affirmative action, what do you suppose the man of color feels when he gets the job solely on the color of his skin and not on his talents/achievements/qualifications?

Great point. I know full well they don't feel genuinely accepted by there peers. Then again, that's the consequences going down through time they must deal with. Neither side wins.

That's the lose-lose proposition America now finds itself in, Neil. Maybe it's me, but I don't see a win-win proposition coming out of it.

Shutting out any part of the debate, or framing the issues one-sidedly, will only further the divide.

You can say that some arguments of reverse discrimination are a promotion of self - so are some arguments of discrimination as well. I simply make the argument discrimination in any direction is an evil to be avoided. That has been a conviction of mine made decades ago.

To say discrimination in one direction is bad, but the other direction is justifiable and good, to me is an argument that is untenable on its face.

Quote:

No guilt was promoted. Just an explaination. Where your guilt and your reaction came from is telling of you, more than the subject...Make your own peace. Deal with your own guilt from this subject...I am not trying to promote self, nor bigotry [direct or reverse]...

I made no insinuation of personal guilt, and I am glad you initially meant no intention that I should. However, sad thing is you now seem to indicate I do. I am so very sorry you misread my reply to mean I must have something dark that I should be guilty of. It was a comment about typecasting and stereotyping - no more, no less. So sorry you couldn't see that.

Later...

[Stan]

How can one talk about stopping White Flight in the Church with out sounding racist?

back to the original question...

[Key Guy]

Originally Posted By: Stan Jensen

How can one talk about stopping White Flight in the Church with out sounding racist?

back to the original question...

First, I am enjoying this discussion. I am also pleased that the heated debate is not as warm as it could be.

Second, to answer your question, Stan... A comment that sounds racist to one person doesn't necessarily sound racist to another. Therefore, with sensitive issues involving the different races, and black/white issues specifically, I would say that probably we can't talk about this subject without sounding racist to at least some.

After sharing my observations based on my experiences, I have tried to end my posts with a Biblical suggestion (after stating the human impossibility of solving the problem). I will stress that there are NO human solutions, just as there are NO human methods to entering God's kingdom.

A friend of mine years ago would hammer constantly on our need to be fully surrendered to Christ and abide in Him. I can offer no better answer.

[Tallmark]

It's unbelievable how scared whites have become of even mentioning race for fear of being called racist. I have a friend who is a white pastor and some blacks are trying to force their way on him. Here's the 411:

1. They love their services to run into the mid afternoon. If it's a communion Sabbath, an 11 AM service could let out at 2:30 PM.

2. For most (not all) it's all about the color. 96% of blacks voted for Obama even though they didn't understand or didn't agree with his stand on the issues.

3. Jesse Jackson would get a standing ovation in most black churches even though he cheated on his wife, made a baby with that relationship, brought her to the White House on the pretext of counseling Bill Clinton who had troubles of his own.

4. Most blacks support the racist NAACP, the Congressional Black Caucus, BET, and other organizations.

5. 70% (80% in Indiana) of black babies are born out of wedlock. They're raised by angry black women. This anger is passed to the children who create more illegitimate babies, commit crimes, end up in jail, and blame the white man.

If Martin Luther King Jr. were alive, I think he would vomit at the sight of his likeness displayed with the abortion loving, far left, socialist, liberal, Democrat who cannot produce his birth certificate, with an angry wife who has not been able to practice law since the mid 1990s. MLK said that he longed for the day when people would be judged on their character rather than their color. Anytime something wrong is pointed out to most (not all) blacks, they say that you're a racist.

I know more about blacks than most blacks do. I was married to a black woman, and as an actor, I have played black people in plays and films.

How to prevent white flight? Tell blacks from the pulpit that the white man does not plan and scheme how to keep the negro down each morning. Tell them to stop the sexual addiction, and be fathers and husbands to their families. Unfortunately, most pastors have been neutered long ago and won't tell that to their congregations.

[olger]

That's what I call direct speaking

g

[Gerr]

Quote:

Quote:

If we claim that there is reverse bigotry and we are angry that the man of color [and I am speaking of not only blacks here] gets OUR job thru affirmative action, what do you suppose the man of color feels when he gets the job solely on the color of his skin and not on his talents/achievements/qualifications?

Great point. I know full well they don't feel genuinely accepted by there peers. Then again, that's the consequences going down through time they must deal with. Neither side wins.

And how about when a more qualified minority/person of color is passed over and a less qualified white person is promoted instead? Or does that happen?

[lazarus]

1. They love their services to run into the mid afternoon. If it's a communion Sabbath, an 11 AM service could let out at 2:30 PM.

so what?

Quote:

2. For most (not all) it's all about the color. 96% of blacks voted for Obama even though they didn't understand or didn't agree with his stand on the issues.

That is probably the most ignorant statement you have posted in a while. How would you know this. What evidence to have to support your bogus assertion. None. You just make stuff up because it fits your twisted agenda.

Quote:

3. Jesse Jackson would get a standing ovation in most black churches even though he cheated on his wife, made a baby with that relationship, brought her to the White House on the pretext of counseling Bill Clinton who had troubles of his own.

Again how would you know that. This is the essence of racism. From your own mind you produce these prejudicial assertions that make all black people to feel, think and act the same. I guess you were one of those against the voting rights act and desegregation because who knows what those blacks will do do with all that freedom.

Quote:

4. Most blacks support the racist NAACP, the Congressional Black Caucus, BET, and other organizations.

5. 70% (80% in Indiana) of black babies are born out of wedlock. They're raised by angry black women. This anger is passed to the children who create more illegitimate babies, commit crimes, end up in jail, and blame the white man.

You evidently don't even understand what racism is and that's probably why you can't recognize it in yourself. Any organization that would speak to black interests is terms racist to you. Stunning ignorance, worthy of a white supremacist.

"They are raised by angry black women". Maybe your black woman was angry. I can see why she had to listen to such foolishness.

Quote:

If Martin Luther King Jr. were alive, I think he would vomit at the sight of his likeness displayed with the abortion loving, far left, socialist, liberal, Democrat who cannot produce his birth certificate, with an angry wife who has not been able to practice law since the mid 1990s. .

LOL!

Quote:

I know more about blacks than most blacks do.

LOL!

Quote:

I was married to a black woman, and as an actor, I have played black people in plays and films.

I'm glad you posted that. I helps to understand where all this comes from. You need to go back and resolve those issues and not release your venom on us.

Quote:

Unfortunately, most pastors have been neutered long ago and won't tell that to their congregations.

Again you speak from the pit of your own ignorance. Its sad.

[lazarus]

That's what I call direct speaking

g

Man, you are even more twisted than I thought.

[lazarus]

White flight is a term for the demographic trend in which white people move away from urban neighborhoods that are becoming racially desegregated to white suburbs and exurbs.[1][2][3] The phenomenon was first named in the United States, but has occurred in other countries as well. A major contributing factor for the start of this trend in the United States is considered to be the 1954 Brown v. Board of Education Supreme Court decision, which began the process of desegregating the country's public schools.[4][5]

Some scholars have noted the impact of redlining, mortgage discrimination, and racially restrictive covenants on white flight: these factors denied or increased the cost of services (such as banking and insurance) to residents in minority suburbs and minority inner-city neighborhoods.[6][7] Some social scientists suggest that the historical processes of suburbanization and decentralization are instances of white privilege that have contributed to contemporary patterns of environmental racism.[8] In some of the largest cities in the United States, the trend started to reverse itself in the 1990s through a process called gentrification.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_flight

[Key Guy]

Rats!!! The thread is steering away from the subject again.

But the polarization of the comments (some directed to the posters), further demonstrates my assertion that human nature is what's in the way, here.

Translation = Human nature says "I'm better than you". That's not a servant attitude. The servant approach breaks down when the servant is taken advantage of by the served. The servant wants to have some kind of reward for serving, and will soon quit if not treated fairly.

The kingdom of God shows us that servants remain as servants even though they are not being fairly treated (look at Christ). That is where we need to be someday (soon, I hope).

In the church, we still have injustice and we still have servants quitting their commitment.

[lazarus]

oh, please, is this the same dude who made wild accusations and was then not be able to substantiate them.

A number of us were constructively discussing the issue but you chimed in with some weird stuff about black churces. It was unnecessary.

[Key Guy]

A number of us were constructively discussing the issue but you chimed in with some weird stuff about black churces. It was unnecessary.

Thank you, Judge Laz. Remind me to clear all comments with you first, before posting.

[Stan]

So does anyone understand why the Church Growth is a private forum?

[jasd]

...nevertheless, the discussion is effervescent.

[Robert]

I know more about blacks than most blacks do. I was married to a black woman....

Well, Steve Martin was "born a poor black child":

Really....

[Kountzer]

`lo Kountz

Never heard of Lazarus, eh?

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Tallmark

1. They love their services to run into the mid afternoon. If it's a communion Sabbath, an 11 AM service could let out at 2:30 PM.

so what?

So what? Bro. Laz, that's exactly the kind of attitude that would drive some if not a lot of people away! We had communion today and our pastor (white) preached his usual 40-45 min sermon and then had the communion. It was 1:25 when we left for home and my wife was complaining about the length of the service. A visiting SDA minister from another church did not even stay for the communion service.

Here's an incident that I went through personally that had nothing to do with "white flight" but rather sent a lot of people of different ethnicity to flight. We were going to a church with over 600 members at one time. A new minister came in and started instituting a "celebration" type service. A lot of people didn't like it and complained to the pastor. A lot of people even suggested having TWO services, but he was hell bent to do what he wanted. Over half of the members left, including my wife, and eventually. I left for a different reason that I felt was racist.

[Kountzer]

If my church lets out before 1:30pm it was a relatively short service. But hey, it's the sabbath. What else you got to do? It's legal, as of right now anyway. Worshipping on the right day, good music, good preaching, at least to my liking. If someone doesn't like it, well, vote with your feet.