White Flight

[phkrause]

I haven't read his book CoAspen, but having a Jewish father who spent 5 years in concentration camps, I can relate. My father told me and my brother many story's. But than Jews have been enslaved, hated, etc. ever since God called Abram. And as far as I know, at least from my relative's, they've never asked anyone to apologies for miss treating them. They just picked themselves up and gone on with there business, and made a better world for themselves and others.

pk

[phkrause]

I've heard of him just never read him. When I get back home I'm going to check him out more closely. Thanks for the info.

pk

[bluebelle]

I hesitated coming into this thread because I thought the worst would be brought out, and what do you know, no surprise there. Delerious breaches in critical thinking, check. Using the matter of "culture" as a blindside, check. I'm a victim, you're really not and what I experience gives me the gravity I need to make a generalized statement because, darn it, the personal is always political, check. Let's railroad this discussion into something that really burns me, check. Let's just agree to disagree and pretend we never really saw this trainwreck coming from a mile away, check.

Martin Luther King said the most segregated time in America is 11am on a Sunday morning. Guess the "remnant church" isn't that distinct then.

[Woody]

Good point bluebelle .... I am also opposed to the segregation of our SDA churches. But most blacks seem comfortable with it for some reason. Go figure.

[phkrause]

Not all Redwood, at the College Church in Lancaster that's not the case.

pk

[Woody]

Then put that church to work and petition leadership to do away with the Black Conferences.

[nuff sed]

Good point bluebelle .... I am also opposed to the segregation of our SDA churches. But most blacks seem comfortable with it for some reason. Go figure.

Why shouldn't they? They were the ones who demanded their own separate conferences. I know. I was there.

[Amelia]

Quote:

Using the matter of "culture" as a blindside, check

Not fair. I only mentioned "culture" as a possibility not a certainty. And if you came into the thread ONLY to fulfill your expectations of it being exactly what you thought; why come in and state the obvious? Honestly, why?

Quote:

Martin Luther King said the most segregated time in America is 11am on a Sunday morning. Guess the "remnant church" isn't that distinct then.

And why is that? What efforts are you making to rectify this issue? Do you even want to change? Do you even care?

To everyone:

Who does this bother the most? The white people leaving a church they no longer feel comfortable in for whatever reason? Or, the black people who are able to attend a church regardless of the color makeup of the congregation and make it feel like home?

AND What do we want done? Do we really want to make every church integrated or do we really want to get in some peoples faces and force them to admit to racial bias, even though that might not be the case but what deep in our hearts we really believe is true regardless. And gosh darn it all we will make them see the light. It will be all rainbows and butterflies HALLELUJAH!

[Gerr]

Then put that church to work and petition leadership to do away with the Black Conferences.

I could be wrong, was not the reason for the Black Conferences their exclusion from the power structure of the church? I realize that is changing, but if we want all the conferences integrated and people are really willing to take second place, and power is no longer the issue but service, then why don't we merge the larger conferences which are essentially white into the Black Conferences? To me, that will show REAL humility. If the Blacks don't want to play second fiddle, let them play in the first chair

[Gerr]

There is no question that culture AND language can play A part. We moved to our new sanctuary about 8 mos ago because the old had become too small. A Spanish-speaking group is using the old sanctuary which adjoins the new. The service in the new sanctuary (English) would not mean much for the Hispanic group, and vice versa. So there is that reality.

And the other cases? Only God can look into the heart and see whether the reason for leaving is really a need for a real newbirth experience.

[bluebelle]

As a matter of fact, I do care. It's just tiresome hearing the same old choir sing the same old song once again. I wasn't picking on you in particular Amelia, but any online forum discussions(Adventist, christian or secular) about race/racism run along the same lines I've mentioned, usually to the point of clichedness. The real point revealed here is worldly influence and its impression on the church. I'm just wondering if this is the litmus test for church cohesiveness and really living the law of love exemplified by Jesus. Can you truly love and uplift your brother especially if he/she does does not look/think/act like you? How willing as a church are we to leave our comfort zones and venture out by faith? How many of us would be willing to worship alongside people of color on a regular basis? How many of us are willing to lay down the self serving armor of defensiveness and put on love armor ( 1 Thessalonians 5:8) instead?

[Richard Holbrook]

My church is about half & half and that suits me just fine. I think it should be that way.

[Amelia]

Quote:

I'm just wondering if this is the litmus test for church cohesiveness and really living the law of love exemplified by Jesus. Can you truly love and uplift your brother especially if he/she does does not look/think/act like you? How willing as a church are we to leave our comfort zones and venture out by faith? How many of us would be willing to worship alongside people of color on a regular basis? How many of us are willing to lay down the self serving armor of defensiveness and put on love armor ( 1 Thessalonians 5:8) instead?

Fantastic questions bluebelle and more I think to the real issue. "Comfort zone" and "willingness". What compels us to stay within our comfort zone and leash our willingness? SELF! You hit that one right on! tu

[nuff sed]

[nuff sed]

Gerry Cabalo said"I could be wrong, was not the reason for the Black Conferences their exclusion from the power structure of the church?"_

Ah, yes....now we are getting down to the nitty gritty.....

POWER

[Woody]

[Gerr]

Quote:

When do we set aside our "rights" for the sake of the gospel?

That is exactly what I was talking about! Willingness to play second fiddle. If the other party does not understand the principle that "loves does not insist on its own way," then let's demonstrate it by not insisting on our own! Merge the majority conferences to the Black Conferences. THAT should shut them up about power exclusion and discrimination!

[Dr. Rich]

Daniel 2:43: "And in that you saw the iron mixed with common clay, they will combine with one another in the seed of men; but they will not adhere to one another, even as iron does not combine with pottery." Any comments about this prophecy being of any importance with the issue in the thread?

[nuff sed]

Gerry.....Why should we merge white conferences into black conferences? I notice that you did not comment on my suggestion that we dissolve both and set up a whole new conference.

[Woody]

Good one Glad.

[Woody]

And even require that the President be Black.

[Gerr]

Gerry.....Why should we merge white conferences into black conferences? I notice that you did not comment on my suggestion that we dissolve both and set up a whole new conference.

Because the spirit of wanting to play first fiddle will still be at work and we will be back to square one that prompted the Black conferences in the first place.

[GreatLakesGramma]

I don't know about the conferences where each of you are, but in the Lake Union, each state has its own separate conference, but the Lake Region Conference covers the entire Lake Union. If the individual state conferences merged into Lake Region, that would be a huge conference covering too many people, and too large of an area to administer effectively.

[Key Guy]

I don't know about the conferences where each of you are, but in the Lake Union, each state has its own separate conference, but the Lake Region Conference covers the entire Lake Union. If the individual state conferences merged into Lake Region, that would be a huge conference covering too many people, and too large of an area to administer effectively.

But that is what the black conferences deal with now already.

Allegheny East

Allegheny West

Southeastern

(the ones I'm familiar with)

These all cover more than one state. Apparently it can be done.

[nuff sed]

Originally Posted By: Gladussee

Gerry.....Why should we merge white conferences into black conferences? I notice that you did not comment on my suggestion that we dissolve both and set up a whole new conference.

Because the spirit of wanting to play first fiddle will still be at work and we will be back to square one that prompted the Black conferences in the first place.

I think that you heading one track no matter what I suggest.

In dissolving both and setting up a new integrated conference there is no first or second fiddle. The field decides who gets what position.

And while we are discussing the "power factor".... why was it that the regional conferences seceeded from the pension plan of the denomination and set up their own to be administered for and by them alone against counsel of the General Conference? It seems to be "We want what 'we' want and you had better like it or else. No thank you. I shouldn't like to be under that type of regime..... You can call it second fiddle if YOU want...but we both know that you are playing with words. I wonder who is going to be expected to pick up the pieces when the pension system goes bust? Yeah, you guessed it.