Is an apparent contradiction good reason for disbelief of the Word

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

Originally Posted By: Gladussee

Positively!

I've heard that if one gets 2% response to an inquiry or needed info, it reveals a much larger percentage, not personally responding, than actually appears for public view.

That gives hope that many are of the same mind, that our Father in heaven is kind enough to allow free will, and will force no one to enter His kingdom who will deny His right to sovereignty and Who will still not have some place way off in the corner of His universe, for those kept in miserable confines for eternity just for a few short years of stupidity.

As to those who must be resurrected to understand their loss, when they rise up in anger to take the holy city, it is probably more for the benefit of the saved righteous who will see that those excluded would have turned on the Lifegiver if they had been given uncounted years to seek reform through the Savior.

As to the ones who last a little longer in their last moments of life, it is probably a result of their abusing the power that they previously had been entrusted with, to again exercise all they had available to supplant the only One Who will rule with love and righteousness.

"...God is love."1 John 4:8 KJV

"He who is the Glory of Israel does not lie or change his mind; for he is not a man, that he should change his mind."1 Samuel 15:29 NIV

"Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever." Hebrews 13:8 NIV

"Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die" Ezekiel 33:11 KJV

"If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?"Matthew 7:11 KJV

Blessings! peace

[nuff sed]

So.....what is your point?????

[LifeHiscost]

So.....what is your point?????

Re: this thread, it appears to motivate some to dismiss the Word as a reliable guide for life's decisions. Is that a valid reason?

Perhaps the point could be, why search for a reason to discredit the Word? No one in God's universe is insisting that the Word has to be their's or anyone else's guide. Some may consider it their' responsibility to see that others do as the Word says but that is not a biblical principle. Disciples are only asked to share the good news of Jesus Christ. No one is suppose to insist others pay heed, though it is important to give warning of the results of withdrawing from the Creators care.

"Love (God's love in us) does not insist on its own rights or its own way" 1 Cor 13:5 AMP

"....they will show great signs and wonders so as to deceive and lead astray, if possible, even the elect (God's chosen ones).

See, I have warned you beforehand."

Regards!

[oldsailor29]

No. Apparent contradictions, or even actual contradictions are not good reasons to disbelieve the Bible. The Bible was written by many different people, and some of their personal differences show up in its pages, but these difficulties which some call contradictions should not be allowed to rob us of our faith.

[Lutz13]

What I have seemed to learn is that when it contradicts, I am missing a piece of the puzzle. Which has me then searching for the matching piece.

Most disbelief comes from the Bipolar god of the OT though. Which at a glance would seem like a contradiction as well. "God is love" Yet if we don't follow he will put boils on our knees, and send men to rape our wives...

[Musicman1228]

Lutz13,

You just succinctly pointed out a blatant contradiction in the Bible; the 'bipolar' god of the O.T. and the loving God of the New. I have even read a paper by a woman SDA making the assertion that the god of the O.T. was actually Satan, and that it must have been Satan that gave Israel the 10 Commandments at Sinai, because the God of grace that Paul points too could not possibly be the god of wrath and accountability for sin that is seen in the O.T. How about that.

I have seen a number of threads on this forum that point to that very same thing; God will not kill for any reason even to punish the wicked (including Satan), God loves everyone so much that not one will be lost, Satan punishes the wicked for God because God is incapable of doing that Himself.

So will the real God please stand up. There are as many interpretations of Scripture as there are interpreters, each with their own unique perspective such that it seems impossible to find a consistent truth among them.

Yet Jesus said that when the Holy Spirit comes he/she/it will guide those of the truth into ALL truth. And that brings up the most insidious contradiction; most people (Christians included) believe that it is IMPOSSIBLE to know all the truth, that we don't need to know the truth as long as we know the author of truth, Jesus Christ. That sounds good but it is a lie. The author of contradiction is Satan. He wants you to believe the way that he defines truth, not the way the God of Heaven does. So what he has done is put information in the Bible that sounds like the truth, that seems like the truth to any reasonable person, but is (in fact) the opposite.

This is the only reason why I will only use the words of Jesus Christ as my source of truth; and those words as coming only from His disciples that were eyewitnesses to His ministry here on earth. When I do this it removes any possibility of contradiction and confusion that Satan wants in my mind, to cast doubt on who the God of Heaven really is. This is what Satan has done from the very beginning, and has been so successful at over the centuries.

Jesus Christ is NOT in conflict with anyone, He is God. The only conflict is from people that do not agree with Him on every single point. That is why I don't need and refuse to use as a source of truth anyone other than the words of God the Father, Jesus Christ the Son of God, and the guiding of the Holy Spirit that must agree with the other two. If you say you are being lead by the Holy Spirit and that spirit teaches you something other than exactly what Jesus Christ or His Father spoke then you are listening to the wrong spirit; this is the deception of Satan that he must convince people of in order to continue to live. I for one do not want that to happen.

[Robert]

Quote:

Is an apparent contradiction good reason for disbelief of the Word

Absolutely not....Truth is found in the paradox...in the contradiction. That's one reason I like to discuss the subject of "does God kill?".

Rob

[Robert]

You just succinctly pointed out a blatant contradiction in the Bible; the 'bipolar' god of the O.T. and the loving God of the New.

As some have quoted, "God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow". The contradictions occur because of our fallen, limited intellect:

1 Cor 1:25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom

So I rejoice in any of those conundrums I find because I am, by the Spirit, ready to learn....

[Dr. Rich]

Robert, your new question has an easy answer--yes. Where did God get the cloths for Adam and Eve? After all, didn't God the Father kill His own Son?

[Musicman1228]

Robert,

Good for you. We should all be ready to learn.

[Robert]

Where did God get the cloths for Adam and Eve?

[LifeHiscost]

Yet Jesus said that when the Holy Spirit comes he/she/it will guide those of the truth into ALL truth. And that brings up the most insidious contradiction; most people (Christians included) believe that it is IMPOSSIBLE to know all the truth, that we don't need to know the truth as long as we know the author of truth, Jesus Christ.

[LifeHiscost]

As some have quoted, "God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow". The contradictions occur because of our fallen, limited intellect:

1 Cor 1:25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom

So I rejoice in any of those conundrums I find because I am, by the Spirit, ready to learn....

A gift of the Holy Spirit. Hallelujah!!!!!!!!!!!

Blessings!

[Kevin H]

"Is an apperent contradiction good reason for disbelief of the word?"

Is a man who could get so tired that he was sleeping through a storm, a man who willingly choose to starve himself to the point of mental illness: specifically major depression due to nutritional deficiency, good reason not to trust him?

There are vast opposits that come together in both the Bible and the Son of God. Divine and human are one such pair.

As to the so called bi-polar God of the Old Testament. I'm afraid that this is more of a modern cultural reading in to the text than the actual text, and I'm willing to take questions on this statement, what bi-polar passages are there. the contradictions are easier to find then truely bipolar texts.

However after saying this, let me qualify some issues. First God worked with his people were they were at the time yet wanted them to grow. God allowed human sacrifice but was guiding the people step by step away from this aspect of worship that God hated but knew that the people were not ready to worship a god who would not allow human sacrifice.

God wanted to teach them that while the law of God is absolute that the application is not absolute. We have the short story of Jesus ignoring a woman then telling her that the dogs are not to get the children's food to teach his disciples, some of the "bi-polar" stories about God are simply God doing the same thing. When Moses get's angry and feels like whiping out the people, God says "Ok Moses, stand out of the way and I'll do it for you." which made Moses get intouch with an even deeper part of himself that really loved the people. God tells them to kill all the Canaanites, but wanted them to know that people did not have to stay lost Canaanites as in the case of the Gibionites and the very worst of the Canaanites, a woman so evil that the wicked Canaanites saw her as a wicked woman and named her the devil. The salvation of the woman who was called the devil was a criticism to the Canaanites who was lost saying that if God could even save her, there was no reason why he could not save the rest of them if only they would let him.

Speaking of the distruction of the Canaanites; even the SDA Bible commentary points out that it appears that the books of Deuteronomy through Kings were researched and edited into it's final form by Jeremiah and his inner circle (in a way similar to how Ellen White produced the conflect of the ages series). Historically there were more conversions than killing under Joshua. Jeremiah edited the history in warning and wanting to have the Hebrews repent before they were attacked by Babylon. Jeremiah emphesised what was important for that current situation. We have in our minds divorced say the book of Joshua from Jeremiah and see Jeremiah's emphesses on a small part of the history as the entire history.

And speaking of Jeremiah, he also liked to talk about his own family history on how his family was cursed and how he was the man bearing all these curses, and also talks about others being blessed by God and the ironary on how people would often turn God's blessings into a curse, yet how God would turn these horrible curses into blessings. We read about God giving these horrible curses to people, but don't now the genology to see their conection to Jeremiah and how in the rest of the story God is able to turn these curses into blessings. We read the curse on the house of Eli how there would be no old man in that family. Well, that family had a disporportionate amount of prophets and prophets have a tendency to not live into old age (ok, Mrs. White got to live old, but that is because of current laws, she was sent to Australia instead of being stoned, as as far as we know she was one of the prophets not decended from Eli. His family did not have all the prophets, but did have a disproprotionately large number of them)

God also used the best things to work with people at the time. Things that could help then psychologically deal with issues, or to make the harm as painless as possible. Stoning was the quickest and least painful way to die in the ancient world. God did not allow the more painful and drawn out forms of death. (interestingly when we read Mrs. White's counsel about "secret vice" that we believe is talking about masterbation, her comments were made in a contest when most people, including articals published in the New England Journal of Medicine recommended tieing children in bed in a way to make it impossible to do. Her advice was dealing with an idea that the public was focused on at the time, gave them something to do since they wanted to do something, yet avoid the things that would now be seen as child abuse such as being tied in bed) We read these texts in our modern world and forget the ancient contexts.

And there is the issue of God's supernatural protection and the free will. The 10 plagues on Egypt were natural events, but God at this time would allow Pharaoh to decide when they should end, and limit the last 10 plague to not be random but fall on someone specific with a way of protection. The blood on the doorposts invided God to passover for a visit, invited God as a guest to stay in their home. In the homes where he was not welcome he would not force a visit but he would pass on through those houses, and where God was not welcome, death always forces it's way in.

At the giving of the 10 commandaments, there was a border where if anyone was to pass it they were to be stoned. Well had they gone up farther and become so close to the pressence of God they would have expirenced the second death. God wanted them to have the first death to protect them from the horror of the second. When prophets saw God in vision they felt like they were being burned alive in his pressence. Moses could only see the back of God and had to wear a veil due to the pain of this glory shining off of him. God wanted to protect people from this expirence.

All of the "bi-polor" aspects of God are able to fit in these types of situations, but we don't read the text with all of this in mind but with or expectations that the God of the Old Testament is harsher than loving Jesus.

[Musicman1228]

Kevin H,

Nicely done. I see the point as this; where there are contradictions in Scripture that affect how we view who God is, it is most often our own personal interpretation that causes the contradiction. God is the same yesterday, today and forever so when we say or assume that He has somehow changed the way in which He operates it is because we want Him to change that has caused the contradiction. This is just another form of limiting God by putting Him into a box of our own construction. The most common phrase that denotes when someone has done this is when you hear them say, "My God would not do that". They are right, their god would not do that, which proves that their god is not THE GOD OF HEAVEN.

[oldsailor29]

Kevin,

It is good to see some actual exegesis here in Club Adventist. If there was any before now, I missed it. One important rule of correct interpretation is, what did it mean to the author and his audience? History, language, and history of language are all very important in correct interpretations. The thought processes of the writers are also important.

One point you made that I like very much is the progression of theology from child sacrifice to no child sacrifice. I think people were still impressed by child sacrifice in the first century. I think this is why we have scriptures saying the Son of God was sacrificed for sin, when actually it was God Himself in the flesh who died for all sins. Jesus tried to tell them, "I and my Father are one," but most of them didn't get it. It seems that most people still don't get it. Jesus is God. That's what Faith in Jesus means. Anyway, I particularly liked the mention of child sacrifice being fazed out.

[LifeHiscost]

we don't read the text with all of this in mind but with or expectations that the God of the Old Testament is harsher than loving Jesus.

The God of the old testament is the Jesus of the new testament.

"For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed."Malachi 3:6 KJV

"Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;

And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

And did all eat the same spiritual meat;

And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness."1 Corinthians 10:1-5 KJV

Blessings!

[LifeHiscost]

Kevin,

It is good to see some actual exegesis here in Club Adventist. If there was any before now, I missed it. One important rule of correct interpretation is, what did it mean to the author and his audience? History, language, and history of language are all very important in correct interpretations. The thought processes of the writers are also important.

One point you made that I like very much is the progression of theology from child sacrifice to no child sacrifice. I think people were still impressed by child sacrifice in the first century. I think this is why we have scriptures saying the Son of God was sacrificed for sin, when actually it was God Himself in the flesh who died for all sins. Jesus tried to tell them, "I and my Father are one," but most of them didn't get it. It seems that most people still don't get it. Jesus is God. That's what Faith in Jesus means. Anyway, I particularly liked the mention of child sacrifice being fazed out.

Ditto!

Jesus (God, YHWY) speaks to His children in the way they are most apt to listen and pick up on what He desires of them. The fact that there seems to be such a major portion of the old testament that is highly negative about God, is telling as much about the people He is dealing with as it is about God Himself.

God is always Love. Never any less, and the cross proves it could never be any more.

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."John 3:16 KJV

Blessings!

[John317]

... God allowed human sacrifice but was guiding the people step by step away from this aspect of worship that God hated but knew that the people were not ready to worship a god who would not allow human sacrifice.

.....

We should not be too surprised if some people offered human sacrifices, including among the Hebrews. They all too often were influenced by the false beliefs of the people around them.

But did God ever say or do anything to lead people to believe that God gave His approval to human sacrifice?

Quote:

At the giving of the 10 commandaments, there was a border where if anyone was to pass it they were to be stoned. Well had they gone up farther and become so close to the pressence of God they would have expirenced the second death. God wanted them to have the first death to protect them from the horror of the second.

The essence of the second death is that it is eternal, or never ending. Are you saying that if they had died, they would not have been brought back from death?

Could you say more about this? And if you believe they would not ever have been resurrected, could you give a reference for this belief?

[Kevin H]

Dr. Dalton Baldwin (I think this was his name) from Loma Linda's religion department has a wonderful study out on human sacrifice in the Bible, and I've heard similar studies in Bible classes. Dr. Larson had him as a guest speaker in his class on I believe ethics. Even as a teenager reading through the Bible for the first time I was confused on how there seemed to be verses telling how to perform human sacrifice with other verses telling us not to follow those instructions but to instead offer sacrifices or payment instead. Later I learned that indeed those verses are there and the verses canceling the earlier verses incerted. Also it is scary that Samuel seemed to be quite perficient in the ritual of human sacrifice when he killed King Aggag on the alter.

And no John, the essence of the second death is that it is not our bodies wearing out but the willful sepperating of ourselves from the only source of life as we see God in all his beauty and choose to be horrified by God's pressence instead of finding it to be heaven. Jesus died the second death and came back from it. The only reason why they do not come back from the second death is because they refuse to.

No, I am not saying that had one of the Hebrews passed the line and saw God and died the second death that they would not be resurected to expirence the end, as this is similar to the death of 2 of Aaron's sons when God's brightness shown and killed them, and the death of the wicked when they are killed by Jesus' glory at the secnd coming and the fear that caused the money changers to run out of the temple when divinity flashed through humanity. But God would not want to have this horrible event take place for some mere inoccent onlooker who God was working with for them to develop a character where they could stand in the pressence of God unveiled and instead of die, to thrive.

[John317]

Dr. Dalton Baldwin (I think this was his name) from Loma Linda's religion department ......

Dalton D. Baldwin is an emeritus professor of Christian Theology at Loma Linda University.

I'm pretty sure he still conducts a Sabbath school here at the LLU church.

Quote:

The only reason why they do not come back from the second death is because they refuse to.

Are you saying then that the wicked don't return from death because they refuse to come back? In what sense? It sounds like you're saying they could come back from death if they really wanted to come back.

I tend to see the reason they don't come as being the decision of Christ along with all those who participate in the decision making process in the judgment.

[Musicman1228]

Jesus was able to raise Himself form the grave/second death because there was NO sin in Him. The grave could not hold Him. Anyone that suffers the second death that still has sin in them that has not been done away with by the blood of the Lamb will stay dead for eternity.

[Kevin H]

John and Musicman, while what you say is true, I'm talking about why it is true.

While Jesus had no sin in him, he took upon himself all our sin and our sin sepperated him from his father which killed him. At the end of time when we see God in all God's beauty and glory, Jesus is our deepest desire. We long to be with Jesus, God's character, his glory, is more desireable than gold and sweeter than honey. We all want to be with Jesus. For some who have developed a relationship with Jesus we will find it heaven to be with him. The others want to come but won't. Jesus is their deepest desire, but they refulse to yeald to the drawing of the Holy Spirit. Jesus told Nicodemus that they are lost because they will not come to the light for fear their deeds will be exposed. This fight between their deepest desire of wanting to be with Jesus and their having developed characters where their sinful nature controling them causing them to refuse to yield to their desire to be with Jesus ends up killing them.

Jesus in the garden and on the cross wanted to come to the Father, the Father wanted to come to Jesus. Their deepest desire was to be together, but they knew that if they did not let my sin sepperate them it would have killed me and out of love for me Jesus took my sins upon himself it would have killed me. Jesus and the Father choose to let my sins sepparate them from each other, All three members of the trinity bore my sins. It killed Jesus in his humanity. The cross shows us what sin does to us. The resurecton teaches us that if we want to be with God all the sins of the world cannot keep us appart.

The essance of the second death is not that there is no resurection from it, but that it is the death that comes from the conflect of wanting to be with God and refusing it, the death that comes from sin as it comes into the physical pressence of God, and what happens to the sinner who refuses to give up the sin which is consumend in God's pressence. God was showing God's glory in a very special way when giving the 10 commandaments, but did not want people to come close enough to expirence that while God was still working on preparing us to be able to stand in his pressence and thrive

[wayfinder]

Re 21:8 "But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

Do these people sound like they want to be with God?

I tell you that the Father did come to His Son while He hung on the cross.

Mark 15:33 When R559 the sixth R560 F295 hour came, darkness fell F296 over the whole land until the ninth R560 F297 hour. 34 At the ninth R561 hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, "ELOI R562 , ELOI, LAMA SABACHTHANI?" which is translated, "MY GOD, MY GOD, WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME?"

Strong's Number: 1459, Egkataleipo:1.abandon, desert

a.leave in straits, leave helpless

b.totally abandoned, utterly forsaken

2.to leave behind among, to leave surviving

Forsaken Me, Jesus is saying, why have you left me. The reason for the darkness was to hide the glory of God from the people in the surrounding area. When God left the darkness lifted and so Jesus says, why have You... Me?

Jesus was the Passover Lamb. Take a look at the requirements for the passover lamb and see if any sin was placed upon or in or had anything to do with the passover lamb.

One other note about the passover lamb. The blood of the passover lamb did not free Israel from the Law of God. The Law of God had not been given yet and would not be given for almost two months. If Jesus is the Passover Lamb, then how could His blood free us from the works of the Law?

[Dr. Rich]

I have often heard that it was our sin that caused Jesus' death. I have also often heard that Jesus died of a broken heart. Thing is, neither of these ideas can be validated or verified from the words of Jesus Himself.

If Jesus was the Passover Lamb as He said He was-then did the first passover lamb die because of sin or to take any sins away? I don't think so. Also, did the first passover lamb die of a broken heart? Again, the answer is no.

The first passover lamb was killed. This is what was to happen to Adam-that God was going to kill him on the day he ate of the tree. Being separated from the Tree of Life was not the punishment, neither was Adam's natural death. Jesus' death was for what Adam did not receive--or you and I would not be here.