Is an apparent contradiction good reason for disbelief of the Word

[Robert]

Rob,If Jesus actually takes on our fallen nature and our sin then He becomes sin for us, which would make the Son of God a sinner and unable to act as the Passover lamb.

The Holy Spirit is in you, yet He is not defiled. In the same way, Christ's Deity was in our fallen humanity.....

[Dr. Rich]

Robert, please take a break and do some research and get your 'brief' in order with memorandum of law--that is scripture from the old testament or the words of Jesus. If you can't do this to support your argument, then the court has sat and you will lose by default. Only then, Robert, is the case closed. (oops, there goes the lawyer part of me again)

[Robert]

Robert, please take a break and do some research and get your 'brief' in order with memorandum of law--that is scripture from the old testament or the words of Jesus. If you can't do this to support your argument, then the court has sat and you will lose by default. Only then, Robert, is the case closed. (oops, there goes the lawyer part of me again)

"The law brings wrath"

[Musicman1228]

Robert said, "The Law brings wrath."

Actually, the Law/Covenant/10 Commandments brings LIFE.

[Robert]

Robert said, "The Law brings wrath."

Actually, the Law/Covenant/10 Commandments brings LIFE.

Romans 7:10 "I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death."

2 Cor 3: 7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious,...9 For if the ministry of condemnation had glory,

Gal 3:10 0 All who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." 11 Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The just, by faith, shall live." 12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will, by them, live." ....

[Dr. Rich]

Well Robert, what can I say? It is all a matter of who you want to listen to I suppose-right? I think I will stick to Jesus.

[Musicman1228]

Robert,

Would you please show me where Jesus in the gospels of Matthew, Mark, or John (less so Luke but there also) said to His disciples that the Law has been set aside in favor of grace. I dare say you won't be able to find it. So if Jesus said that the 10 Commandments no longer apply to the Kingdom of Heaven then why are you SDA (if you are). The SDA church was founded on principles based on the 10 Commandments, which is one of the indicators that the SDA church is the Kingdom of Heaven today. If we are supposed to be just like all the other churches in the world then we should do as you do and say that the Commandments are not important, forget keeping the Sabbath and just get on with our lives. But if we are to do the will of God then we need to proclaim the importance of keeping the 10 Commandments as the way to declare that you are a member of the Kingdom of Heaven.

I agree with Dr. Rich and I'll stick with Jesus.

[Robert]

Well Robert, what can I say? It is all a matter of who you want to listen to I suppose-right? I think I will stick to Jesus.

Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle and set apart for the gospel of God-- Rom 1:1

Paul, an apostle--sent not from men nor by man, but by Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead-- Gal 1:1

Paul, called to be an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God 1 Cor 1:1

Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the command of God....1 Tim 1:1

Gal 1:11 I want you to know, brothers, that the gospel I preached is not something that man made up. 12 I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ

[Robert]

Would you please show me where Jesus ... said to His disciples that the Law has been set aside in favor of grace.

The law, which is much more than ten brief rules, has been fulfilled in the doing and dying of Christ. If not then you remain under law and under its authority you must, "Be perfect, just as your heavenly Father is perfect" [Matt 5:48]

Are you as perfect as God?

Not according to the Jesus: "There is none good but one, that is, God." [Matt 19:17]

[Musicman1228]

Again, Robert, you have used a text in Matt.5:48 out of context following a quote that did not come from Jesus Christ but from someone else. Jesus DID NOT ever say that the "law has been fulfilled in the doing and dying of Christ." Who said that? Site your source, and don't mix the words of Jesus with the words of anyone else.

As you pointed out Jesus said, "Be perfect, even as your Father in Heaven is perfect." Did Jesus NOT mean what He said? The process of Sanctification is the way in which we 'become' perfect over time. No one, least of all Jesus, expects us to become perfect overnight.

And in your quoting of Matt. 19:17 you either mistakenly or deliberately miss the point (I don't know which one is worse) of what Jesus is saying by suggesting that Jesus as the Son of God is not good. Come on, this is making me angry. You can't be serious in saying that Jesus believed that He Himself was not good, only God the Father. Is not the Holy Spirit 'good' as well?

Look at the context; a young man asks Jesus what he must do to have eternal life. What Jesus says is profound; Why ask me what to do? It's there right in front of you. He then points to the 10 Commandments by saying that there is only one way to know what is good and that is through what God gave. (Actually, there are only two of the 8 translations that I use that has the word God in it. The rest don't have that.) The implication is that to know and do what is good you must keep the Commandments. We know Jesus was pointing to the 10 Commandments because the young man asked which ones he needed to keep and Jesus listed them.

Then Jesus tells him that if he is to be perfect he must get rid of all distractions and follow Him. Why follow Jesus? To learn from His words, because it is His words that bring eternal life, which is what the young man was asking about. We must do the exact same thing; get rid of distractions that keep our focus on someone other than Jesus Christ, then follow His words and teachings. We see this same instruction in Rev.12:17:

Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

The offspring of the woman (which must be the Holy Spirit because the church did not give birth to Jesus, either spiritually or physically) that are the brothers and sisters of Jesus do two things that prove who they are; they keep the Commandments of God, and learn and use the words of Jesus. This is exactly what Jesus was telling the rich young man to do. It is also what we should do - follow Jesus Christ ONLY.

[Robert]

As you pointed out Jesus said, "Be perfect, even as your Father in Heaven is perfect." Did Jesus NOT mean what He said? The process of Sanctification is the way in which we 'become' perfect over time.

Funny, I didn't read Jesus say, "You shall be perfect, over time, just as your heavenly Father is perfect."

As to this perfectionistic gospel you present, EGW said that as long as life last there'll be no point where we can say we have arrived.

Rob

[Robert]

And in your quoting of Matt. 19:17 you either mistakenly or deliberately miss the point (I don't know which one is worse) of what Jesus is saying by suggesting that Jesus as the Son of God is not good. Come on, this is making me angry.

Ah, but the rich young ruler didn't address Christ as the Son of God, but merely a teacher...a mere man. He didn't accept Him as the Son of God. Read it again....

[Robert]

He then points to the 10 Commandments by saying that there is only one way to know what is good and that is through what God gave.

Actually, He pointed to the last 6 commandments....

Remember what the RYR asked: "What good thing must I do to gain eternal life." That's an old covenant question and Christ pointed him to the law. In other words if you want to gain heaven by your performance you must obey the law.

The man said, "I've been doing all these things since I was in Sabbath School, what do I lack?" In other words he viewed himself as whole.

But Christ brings out his selfishness:

"If you are to be perfect you must sell all your posessions and give it all to the poor. And then come and follow me...."

You see Christ never lived for himself....He didn't go to college so He could buy a nice car and home....There was no self-seeking in Christ's life....Everything He did was unselfish with no thought of Himself. That's perfection....

Now, ask yourself, "self, why did I go to college?" $$$...Why? Me, me, me....In fact why do you do anything you do? Answer: Me, me, me....That's sin....

And this garbage where you preach salvation by keeping the commandments is more me, me, me....It's something you can brag about, it's something you can pat yourself on the back about.....You can say, "I + Christ" instead of "Not I, but Christ"

And now I'm getting angry

[Robert]

Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring [The SDA Church?], on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

Well, that's future....It ain't you...it ain't the SDA church (more bragging).....It will be the result of the true gospel (when it is preached) as a witness (not for salvation) to a dying world of God's agape love...something I don't see in the SDA church....I mean even the early church had "all things in common" (no selfishness)....And the SDA isn't even close to the early church....SO stop your bragging...

Getting mad again

[Dr. Rich]

Whoa there guys, I can see both sides to this issue. There is nothing useful in getting angry--frustrated-perhaps. Today's lesson study was on the 'Word' as presented by John in the first chapter, verse one. From what I have gathered in my research, it appears that even with all of the old testament prophets, there still was a giant communication gap, so the WORD(S) the Father wanted to present to the world were given from Him to His Son so that we might know what it is that God wants us to know and understand.

I have lived long enough to understand there is one main serious problem with everyone. Communication gap! Therefore, my I suggest we get back to the roots or foundation of the issue here?

How about reading about how important the foundation is before we pick sides on alleged contradictions? Look at Matthew 7:24-28 and pay attention to verse 26. What I see is that the foundation is the words of Jesus and if we are going to build a house (our spiritual belief) we first need to understand EVERYTHING that Jesus said. Now I could be wrong, but I don't think so. What do you think?

Blessings

[Beryl]

I think you are fairly close to the truth in that area. The Church is built on Christ as its foundation. Jesus did say that we must be perfect -- AS HE IS PERFECT -- and THAT is a standard that is impossible for sinful mankind to reach (and He knows that). Therefore Jesus offers to cover us with His Own garment of Righteousness when we allow the Holy Spirit to point out our sins, and we repent, and ask for forgiveness.

It is ONLY when we are covered by His robe of righteousness that we will be accepted into His Kingdom.

God bless,

Beryl

[Dr. Rich]

LOL, sorry Beryl, but I am still laughing a little. I get this picture of people going to heaven with sin, but wearing a robe from Jesus so that the Father can't see through it.

Well, back to the foundation for a second--I can't see anywhere in my bible where the words of Jesus ever said what you presented. But I did see that there will be only a few that have overcome sin and are righteous in Rev. 3:4 and stand pure and without lies, being totally blameless (sinless). And all of this is before the time of trouble too. hmmmmm?

Now Beryl, isn't what you presented the same thing being presented in most Christian Churches today? I have read many of your posts and it appears as though you claim to be a SDA member. Right? What I want to know then, is why should anyone in the SDA church care about professing to keep all of the ten commandments if we can't be perfect?

When Jesus said to seek ye first the Kingdom of Heaven AND His righteousness, and "Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness for they will be filled", I don't think He would say this to pull a trick on us like dangle a carrot on a string just to keep us seeking. He did not say that His robe of righteousness would cover up our sins! Did He?

[Beryl]

Quote:

but I am still laughing a little. I get this picture of people going to heaven with sin, but wearing a robe from Jesus so that the Father can't see through it.

Well, I am thinking of a parable given by Jesus -- the prodigal son. Tell me, when did his father accept him back home? My reading of the parable tells me that it was while he was still filthy from the pig pens! The father sent for his own robe which he threw over his returning son, covering all of the filth. Oh, yes, between that time and the grand party the father would have seen to it that the son was scrubbed from top to toe -- but he did not wait for the son to be all cleaned up before he accepted him back as his son.

Tht parable is a picture of the Godhead. We are all sinners -- and some of us have been greater sinners than others! God's Robe of Righteousness covers every confessed sin -- but as our relationship with God grows stronger, God will reveal to us other things in our lives that need changing, and help us through that hurdle. I see our relationship with Jesus as a continuing cycle of having our defects of character brought to our attention, one at a time. Will we ever be perfect? Only by His grace.

God bless,

Beryl

[Kevin H]

I'm sorry that this thread has changed direction, and I was not finding my self too interested in the argument, but now the last 2 posts have sparked my interest again.

Until the 10th grade I went to public school except for 1 semester in the third grade when I was visiting relatives in California. In what must have been a week of prayer there they tried to explain righteousness by faith, and the illustration I remembered was that if we ask Jesus he will cover our record with his so that when the father looks at our record he does not see my sins but Jesus righteousness instead.

This lead to the next few years my prayers including a period where it sounded something like (only I've made it more humorous to make a point and how I felt in my heart although the words were better) "Excuse me Father but could I talk to Jesus for a moment? Oh, I know he hears my prayers too, but I mean could I talk to him in private? No Father, not that I don't like talking to you too, but sometimes I just need to talk to my older brother.... Jesus, are you there, and is the Father off the line? Good, so when you get the chance please cover my record with yours, thank's buddy, now you can put the Father back on the phone."

Now what added to the confusion was that I did not grow up with the myth that the God of the Old Testament was harsh compaired to meek and mild Jesus. I was more familiar with the Old Testament and the Old Testamet God sounded flexable willing to do things to help out his erring children. However in the New Testament Jesus was full of these "Depart from me, I never knew you" stories and the parable of the virgins gave me nighmares. In my mind I could picture Jesus saying "Ready or not, here I come, only for me to be not doing something perfect at the time and Jesus saying "You are not ready, I don't know you" and I wished that it was the Old Testament God to come as I could picture him saying "Here I am! What you are not ready.... mmmm.... I'm sorry. Hey, I realize that I came at a bad moment, but I know that deep inside you love me, come along with me anyway." and equating the Old Testament God with God the Father, I was much more comfortable with God the Father, and frankly, I did not care of God the Father saw my actual record or not, but sadly it was this scary Jesus who was to come and bring us home and I had to play by his rules.

I honestly lived in terror of the second coming until I first came to realize that Jesus is the God of the Old Testament, and learning more about the oneness of the trinity, and learning that "Hell Fire" is the brightness and the glory and the love of God, and that when we see God in the end, see Jesus in all his glory, that it is two responses to seeing the Desire of Ages, those who find it heaven to be with Jesus, and those who end up stuck between their attraction to Jesus and the drawing power of the Holy Spirit, and their character of refusing to yield to it.

As for the robe of Christ's righteousness is simply that life comes from God and we develope a friendship with God, so that the consuming eternal fire becomes heaven and a place to thrive for us. Heaven and hell are both focused on Jesus, who Jesus is and our yeilding to the Holy Spirit showing God's love to us, while by beholding we become changed, the issue for the second coming and heaven and hell has noting to do with us but all is accepting the only sourse of life to give us life. The trinity lives in a righteousness by faith relationship with each other, loving their neighbor as them self and pointing to each other instead of to themselves. For us it is to share in this relationship. We have two attitudes inside of us fighting. There is the sinful nature: A disposition to think we are for ourselves by making less of the outside world. And our deepest desire, to want to be like and with Jesus, to Love the world as He has loved it. To Like the world on an honest basis.

When Jesus was talking to the woman at the well and he asked her to call her husband and she said she did not have a husband, she was feeling that there was no good in her. She felt rotten to the core. She was litterally expirenceing what the sinner will expirence in hell as she was quite litterally being consumend by Hell fire, only vield by humanity. What Jesus said to her when she was feeling so bad was basically "Congratulations, you are an honest person. You are not rotten through the core as you believe, but you could have outright lied to me, you could have gotten the man you are with and have him pretend to be your husband, but you told me the truth that you have no husband. Now you are streatching the truth, you are minipulating the truth for your own protection instead of giving the pure truth, but at least you using the truth, there is something honest in you and I can start working with that." She did not need her record to be hidden. She did not need the robe of Jesus that the Father could not see through. She needed the robe of the fact that Jesus still loved her and could help to develop this little spark of abused honesty into a fire of a relationship with God, if only she would yield to God's love and not be so embarrased at what he knew that she wanted to run away from him and sulk someplace over being rotten through the core. This is the rigtheousness of God, the robe of Jesus and the covering of our record with his.

Which leads to Rober's statement about Jesus turining to the last 6 commmandaments. Judaism at this time had several laws and groups of laws. Today we would say chapter and verse, in Jesus day they would give a few of the words from that portion of scripture an thus would be understood by the Rich Young Ruller as the secton of the laws known as the 10 commandaments. Jesus wanted to point out to this man that all his consern about being right with God is not where the issue lies, to simply trust God and that his focus on religion has been making him forget about careing about others and that he was making an idol over his riches. If he gave all to help the poor he would have gotten it all back and even more (along with persecutions). As the disciples spread the Gospel, people wanted to give them the best. Peter and John lived lives that emperors Nero and Domination envied. They were not small time who got lost in the cracks. Even Paul as a prisioner got to be a prisoner in a nice house with people ministering to him. The rich young ruller's feeling that he was better than others for his wealth is his downfall. And unlike the woman at the well who came to thrive in the pressence of Hell Fire, the Rich Young Ruller wanted to get away from the consuming fire and sulk.

While it is probably not, so please don't read too much into this speculation, this is a question we can get answered in heaven; as we study the Bible there are hints, evidence and proofs. Hints being the weakest but can cause us to think. There are hints that another rich young ruller at this time, Saul of Tarsus, may have been a friend of the Rich Young Ruller, or even less likely but possible(in which I have to say that althought highly unlikely, what I hope it is), Saul himself.

[Robert]

LOL, sorry Beryl, but I am still laughing a little. I get this picture of people going to heaven with sin, but wearing a robe from Jesus so that the Father can't see through it.

There'll be no love of self, selfishness and self-seeking in heaven. Lucifer invented it and he wasn't allowed to develop it in heaven. However, we see his principle at work in this world all too well.

At the resurrection or slightly before translation "we shall be changed" because "flesh and blood" (sinful humanity) cannot enter heaven. Then we will have a glorified body and mind. We will perfectly reflect Christ. We will be as perfect as God is perfect. We will be in the image and likeness of God once again.

[Dr. Rich]

Well Bob, are you gnostic? (Like Paul) Meaning the spirit is good and the flesh is evil? I Don't think Jesus ever agreed with that. And Bob, were Adam and Eve then both good and evil before they ate from the tree?

So tell me Bob, what do the leaves from the Tree of Life do for the 'Nations'?

[Robert]

Well Bob, are you gnostic? (Like Paul) Meaning the spirit is good and the flesh is evil? I Don't think Jesus ever agreed with that. And Bob, were Adam and Eve then both good and evil before they ate from the tree?

So tell me Bob, what do the leaves from the Tree of Life do for the 'Nations'?

1] If you reject Paul you'll not enter heaven. Why? You'll end up in the camp of the self-righteous....

2] Paul nowhere states the spirit is good and the body evil....He states that the whole man is self-centered. We are rotten to the core....There's nothing good in us. That includes your spirit...

[Dr. Rich]

Sorry Bob, My bet is on the words of Jesus--not yours. You were the one that said the flesh and blood were evil/sinful. Where did you get that info from?

first of all, there is NO WAY jose, that one can separate the flesh from the spirit and still have a living soul. You can read about this in Gen. The soul is like the light that shines from a flashlight. Without the batteries (spirit) or the case and bulb (flesh and blood) there can't be a living soul.

Now then, plese answer my question about the tree of life in heaven! thanks

[Dr. Rich]

Beryl, ok, I see that you have used the words from Luke, one that never knew Jesus, was not a Jew, but was a traveling companion of Paul and wrote what Paul told him to write.

But you did bring up an interesting issue, and I will tell you it is the ONE issue that actually caused me to wonder about Luke and his reason for writing this. You will not find this story in Matthew, Mark or John. This story would support Paul's theory that once one has been broken off of the tree, that it could still be grafted back on. (I can't see that Jesus ever said this--Jesus said it would be thrown in the fire.)

And again Beryl, this is just another reason I (me) chose the woreds of Jesus given to us ONLY by His eyewitnesses. Yes, I understand it might not be your choice, but it is mine.

Oh, and reading what you wrote about Grace--I never read anywhere that Jesus said for us to be week so His power could be made perfect. In fact, what I read, Jesus view is 180 degrees from that view.

[Beryl]

Quote:

this is just another reason I (me) chose the woreds of Jesus given to us ONLY by His eyewitnesses. Yes, I understand it might not be your choice, but it is mine.

OK, Dr Rich, you don't accept anything in the New Testament that was not written by one of the disciples -- eyewitnesses of Jesus. That means that you reject Luke, Acts, Romans, 1 and 2 Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, 1 and 2 Thessalonians, 1 and 2 Timothy, Titus, Philemon, Hebrews, James, and Jude. That doesn't leave much of the New Testament, does it?

What authority do you have to tamper with the Word of God (the Bible) and choose what you will or will not accept?

Quote:

Oh, and reading what you wrote about Grace--I never read anywhere that Jesus said for us to be week so His power could be made perfect. In fact, what I read, Jesus view is 180 degrees from that view.

No, you may not have read it -- but I have experienced it! I am going to put here a personal story that normally I would not, but somehow someone has to try to convince you that God accepts what Paul wrote, even if you do not.

My husband (now deceased) had developed a mental condition which made life a major problem for the family. One night things had reached a stage where I was torn between should I stay or should I take the children and go. I loved my husband, but there comes a time when the road ahead looks too hard. I went out to the laundry and burst into tears, and cried out to the Lord for some guidance. His voice came back to me, quoting 2 Corinthians 12:9, "My grace is sufficient for you." And I can assure you that His grace has been sufficient. No, the problems did not go away, but God's grace saw me through them. My husband passed away several years ago, but never again did I query whether I should go or stay. My God had given me a personal promise -- the same promise that He had given to Paul, and He did see me through the bad times.

You may not believe my story -- that is up to you, but please do not dare to make a human decision as to what is true and what is false in God's Holy Word.

May God speak to your heart, and may you listen.

God bless,

Beryl