What does the SDA church stand for?

[BobRyan]

I like the way Ernie Knoll's dream illustrates the problem "what if Noah had failed to build the ark as commanded".

[BobRyan]

For over 100 year the Seventh-day Adventist church has had two political policies.

One the separation of church and state. The Government should sty out of the church business and the church should stay out of the government business.

Second it the individual should have the freedom to practice religion without interference from the government and the Government should be free to operate without interference from the church.

This is a complete contrast to the Roman Catholic church policies.

The Catholic church has used its influnce to try to make things they oppose illigal like abortion. They have instructed their priest to withhold comuunion from some goverment workers because thse people we opposed to the church policies.

The Catholic church is the only religion who has political appointees and representation in the United Nations.

The Catholic Church has worked quietly for a long time to interfere with government policies around the world.

But now, now the catholic church wants an even larger role in the new developing world government.

In this new church policy written by pope Benedict to the church he is instructing the bishops and priests to teach this new and expanding role of the catholic church. He is politically using the office to advance a political agenda.

So what should the role of the Adventist church or its members or its intuitions be in this process?

Should we remain silent?

Should we ignore the historical behavior of the Catholic church in politics?

Should we become educated in what is happening with this world government?

Should we expose the methods or motives of the Catholic church?

This is where Religious Liberty needs to "Step up to the plate" if the moral legislation gets to the area of "worship".

But recall that in the 1800's Adventists (and yes even Ellen and James White) were STRONGLY in favor of moral legislation when it came to

1. The moral value of human life (Slavery)

2. The moral value of health vs right-to-privacy (prohibition)

And in the case of prohibition - Ellen White pushed hard to get Adventists to help pro-Sunday groups get a constitutional ammendment prohibiting the sale of alcohol on strictly religious moral grounds.

In the end, historically, we DO support legislating morality as long as you are talking about the last 6 commandments and not the first 4.

in Christ,

Bob

[fccool]

PS...

None of the verses you gave speak about Christ's return in such context:

2 Peter 3: 11

The context is anticipation, and not speed up! That word "haste" likewise means "look forward to, and anticipate" in Greek.

Nowhere in the Bible you see the context of Groom coming faster because the bridegroom are ready. In fact, it says that Groom will come and catch the ones not ready by surprise.

But, people take ONE WORD, and make theological doctrines based on it.

Moving on:

"Take your sickle and reap, because the time to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is ripe."

Where do you see from the above context that Christ's second coming date depends on our efforts? The harvest in this case does NOT ONLY refer to the ones who are alive. It's talks about the ones sleeping in Christ too. It talks about all of the saints, including the ones during the OT times.

Sure, God patiently waits for his plan to be executed, but nowhere you will find that we will somehow "delay" it .

Moving on:

"Let us rejoice and be glad and give the glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come and His bride has made herself ready."

Again, nowhere you will find that God is delaying the wedding date. In fact, it is the bridegroom that's to wait patiently, not the other way around! The wedding date is set, and God knows it. He does not give us the date, but tells us to be ready when it does happen. He gives us clues when the date is approaching.

The angels who hold "the winds of strife" are not "delaying" the winds because of our actions. They are simply waiting for portions of God's plan to be executed.

To say that God somehow waits on us is to deny God's perfect plan and will.

[BobRyan]

hint: To "hasten" or to "make haste" never means "look forward to" nor "anticipate".

In the case of 2Peter 3:12 the greek word is "speudo" - and is rendered as

KJV (6) - haste, 1; haste unto, 1; make haste, 3; with haste, 1;

NAS (6) - hastening, 1; hurried, 1; hurry, 2; hurrying, 1; make haste, 1;

in Christ,

Bob

[fccool]

Yes, I do believe that God knows the future, but that does not interfere with human freedom and human planning.

Do you believe:

1) That it was God's plan for humankind to rebel and be destroyed by the Flood?

2) That if people had repented and changed their way, they would have been destroyed by the flood in any case?

3) That it was God's plan for the children of Israel to wander in the wilderness and die there instead of going on into the Promised Land?

4) And that if the people who left Egypt had been faithful and obedient, they would still have died in the wilderness?

John... again, you make the mistake of looking at things from human perspective. I said, that God allows in his plan to work around these things and still bring His plan to completion! HE KNEW ALL OF THESE THINGS WOULD HAPPEN. He did not plan these, but He sure planned FOR these things.

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: FCCOOL

Where do we get the idea that God keeps postponing his schedule because Adventist are not ready? It's humorous at least to think that we can "hasten" the return of the Christ

Good calvinism - but poor scripture.

Gen 6 God says he repents that He made man.

Jer 18 God elaborates on the subject of conditional prophecy.

Repeatedly in scripture God states that He responds to the choices man makes.

For example - God did not "just so happen" to kick Adam and Eve out of the Garden on the very day they "just so happened to choose to sin".

God did not "just so happen to go to war with Lucifer" on the same day that Lucifer "just so happened" to choose to war against God.

NEITHER did the All-knowing God DESIGN Lucifer to fail or DESIGN/CREATE Adam to fail.

And the same principle of free will - continues to be in play to this very day. "Oh how I WANTED to gather your children as a hen gathers her chicks... but YOU would not" Matt 23.

The pharisees "Rejected God purpose for them". Luke 7:30

This explains the "Grieving God" description we see in scripture. Luke 19:41-44.

The fact that God is all knowing does not change it.

The fact that God has a way to "make lemon-aid out of lemons" does not change the fact that His design and purpose was for a sin free world and that his design and purpose was for Israel NOT to fail and His design and purpose was for the Christian church NOT to have gone into apostasy.

Etc etc.

When finite man attempts to "sit in God's chair" and discount scripture as "not being the lahjah view" because we all know that God is "all-knowing", he immediately finds himself in scripture-denying assertions about God's character.

[John317]

Tell me what you think of what Ellen White wrote:

Quote:

It was not the will of God that the coming of Christ should be thus delayed. God did not design that His people, Israel, should wander forty years in the wilderness. He promised to lead them directly to the land of Canaan, and establish them there a holy, healthy, happy people. But those to whom it was first preached, went not in "because of unbelief." Their hearts were filled with murmuring, rebellion, and hatred, and He could not fulfill His covenant with them.

For forty years did unbelief, murmuring, and rebellion shut out ancient Israel from the land of Canaan. The same sins have delayed the entrance of modern Israel into the heavenly Canaan. In neither case were the promises of God at fault. It is the unbelief, the worldliness, unconsecration, and strife among the Lord's professed people that have kept us in this world of sin and sorrow so many years.--Manuscript 4, 1883. Evangelism (1946), page 696, paragraph 1

We may have to remain here in this world because of insubordination many more years, as did the children of Israel, but for Christ's sake His people should not add sin to sin by charging God with the consequence of their own wrong course of action.--Ev 695, 696 (1901); Last Day Events (1992), page 39, paragraph 1

We May Hasten the Day.--By giving the gospel to the world it is in our power to hasten our Lord's return.--The Desire of Ages, p. 633. (1898)

It is the privilege of every Christian, not only to look for, but to hasten the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Were all who profess His name bearing fruit to His glory, how quickly the whole world would be sown with the seed of the gospel. Quickly the last harvest would be ripened, and Christ would come to

gather the precious grain.--Testimonies, vol. 8, pp. 22, 23. (1904)[/quote']

How do you understand this?

[fccool]

Originally Posted By: FCCOOL

Where do we get the idea that God keeps postponing his schedule because Adventist are not ready? It's humorous at least to think that we can "hasten" the return of the Christ

Good calvinism - but poor scripture...

Bob, I understand what you are saying, but I don't think we are talking about the same thing.

Calvinism states that God makes choices for man. I'm talking about God including man's choices in His plan... like planning for rain during the trip. It DOES NOT MEAN that He delays His trip because of the rain.

[fccool]

Bob,

I'm not trying to sit in God's chair . Please, swipe my points under the rug by burning a straw man.

God reveals enough about His nature for us to understand and learn about His actions. I don't claim to have the perfect knowledge of God, as you have alluded. I merely discount your twisting few verses of scripture to make sure that E.G. White does not look bad.

To answer John's question, I don't believe that she was correct on this point, just like she was not correct believing that Christ delayed His coming in 1848. Not to say that we can not learn from what she said, but PLEASE... STOP pasting paragraphs from SHE SAID to prove the Bible . Paste the Bible

Ultimately, I see this view as a poor excuse for failed prophecy... and false motivation for us to do what's right. The same reason that Evangelicals support Israel, because they are looking to do the same thing... to hasten the appearance of Christ.

[BobRyan]

Calvinism argues from the standpoint of God's all-knowing (forknowledge) that there can be no such thing as "hastening" the day of the Lord's return.

Both you and John agree that God knows the exact day of his return. The issue is how then are the Bible statements about hastening "also true" and how are the statements from Ellen White about "delay" also true -- and how are the conditional promise elements of Jeremiah 18 "also true".

Your argument is not allowing for that aspect - you remain stuck in the "God knows all" end of it - without allowing for the other pieces of the puzzle -- thus the conclusion I quoted from you where you ask how in the world we could ever have a "there has been a delay" concept.

Where do we get the idea that God keeps postponing his schedule because Adventist are not ready? It's humorous at least to think that we can "hasten" the return of the Christ

In truth - if there can be no hastening, and no conditions apply to change cases as we see in Jeremiah 18, then your statement holds. But when all the variables are included - what you have is the same flaw found in calvinism as it tries to assert that mankind has no choice BECAUSE God "knew all along what you would choose to do and you have no power at all to change what God knows to be true.".

After spending so many years discussing points with Calvinists - I am surprised when I come to Adventist boards to find some adventists unknowingly using the same arguments.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

But here is a much larger concern.

If we indeed have the parallel to Israel aborting the entrance into Caanan then 40 years later coming around to that same point - yet again, then it means that the "urgent" messages of Ellen White in the 2nd half of the 19th century about "too late to get married" and "too late to have kids" and "no long education programs" etc etc are once again coming around as "present warnings". It means all the bells and whistles an sirens that were set off then - must be set off again as the 2nd coming event once again cycles around.

Only this time we have a hard and fast boundary that Ellen White states about the fact that when the Gospel goes to the world - Christ will come.

Today we are at the 99% level with Gospel coverage to the world by Radio. We are getting ready to duplicate that with missionaries on the ground, and Bible in the native language coverage. There is only so many times we can repeat the exercise in other forms before God is goind to consider the event "covered".

in Christ,

Bob

[John317]

Bob,

To answer John's question, I don't believe that she was correct on this point, just like she was not correct believing that Christ delayed His coming in 1848. Not to say that we can not learn from what she said, but PLEASE... STOP pasting paragraphs from SHE SAID to prove the Bible . Paste the Bible

Ultimately, I see this view as a poor excuse for failed prophecy.

Where did she write that Christ delayed His coming in 1848? Please show references.

(I know that Christ could have come in the late 1800s but have seen nothing about 1848.)

If what you say here is true, why would I spend time trying to learn anything from what she wrote?

I'm not pasting anything from Ellen White to prove the Bible. You're misunderstanding.

I'm pasting what she wrote in order to show what she wrote. I think it's important that we understand what she said and wrote.

I was assuming that as an SDA you saw her as a prophet of God. I realize that this is often not the case, just as it was not the case that all the children of Israel believed in God's prophet after they came out of Egypt. This is exactly what I mean by saying we are in rebellion against God and against His prophet. Meantime we wonder why Christ has not come. I think it's obvious.

[John317]

Bob,

she was not correct believing that Christ delayed His coming in 1848.

Does this link help regarding 1848? The alleged date was not 1848-- although someone may have made that claim-- but 1845.

http://ellenwhiteanswers.org/answers/mischarges/1845predictions

If I believed that Ellen White was a false prophet, I wouldn't want anything to do with her. Nor would I want anything to do with the SDA church, because it would mean being in a church which was co-founded and led for 60 years by a false prophet. Where did she get her inspiration and those thousands of visions if not from God? Did she make them up or did someone else give them to her?

I think we need to realize what a great influence she was on the church-- both in its policies and vision but also in our doctrines. So if you concluded that Ellen White was a false prophet, you either must leave the SDA church or else you are left following a church that wouldn't exist apart from someone you believe is a false prophet.

If I conclude that God was not in the 1844 Movement, and that Ellen White can't be trusted and that she was a false prophet-- how can I possibly harmonize that conclusion with a decision to stay in the church while thinking that I am doing God's will? That simply makes no sense to me. Why would God want me in a church that teaches false doctrines and was co-founded and led by someone who gave false prophecies, etc.?

Unless there's a plan is to try and change the church. Do you believe it's possible that God wants people to change the church from the false doctrines it now believes to belief in true doctrines? Could that be the reason many stay in the church after they believe that the doctrines are wrong and that Ellen White simply wrote her mistaken opinions as messages from God?

[Joe_in_RP]

This is all VERY interesting but without getting into a theological discussion, what should we do, if anything about the Popes desire to be included in this new world government?

[John317]

It's no secret that he wants to be a major player in world government. It comes out clearly in the book, Keys of This Blood, a book written by a Vatican insider, Malachi Martin, a friend of the Pope, not his enemy. It also comes out in almost all the communiques by the Vatican concerning the topic.

I think that we need to teach people what prophecy says on that point, and we have to realize that we will be opposed by some-- perhaps many-- inside the SDA church.

I see a real divide in our church coming. It is already here but it's growing wider and deeper and bigger. As Ellen White said, "The church will appear to be about to fall but it will not fall." I think the majority will make a separate church, and there will be left a small remnant who truly believe the FB 28 and the Testimonies.

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: fccool

Bob,

she was not correct believing that Christ delayed His coming in 1848.

Does this link help regarding 1848? The alleged date was not 1848-- although someone may have made that claim-- but 1845.

http://ellenwhiteanswers.org/answers/mischarges/1845predictions

If I believed that Ellen White was a false prophet, I wouldn't want anything to do with her.

Good link. Thanks.

Ellen White has many statements to the effect that the very fanatics she condemned were frequently turning around and publishing false statements about her to deceive as many newly converted members as possible and to prejudice minds against her work in general.

It is better to compare her published statements that all can verify and attest to having been actually made -- rather than relying on the the hearsay reports of her detractors "alone".

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Bob,

To answer John's question, I don't believe that she was correct on this point, just like she was not correct believing that Christ delayed His coming in 1848. Not to say that we can not learn from what she said, but PLEASE... STOP pasting paragraphs from SHE SAID to prove the Bible . Paste the Bible

I am thinking that this part of your post was directed to John.

In any case - I agree with facts listed in John's web link regarding the point that Ellen White is on record early in the Adventist experience as condemning all the efforts made by Millerites to come up with new dates for the 2nd coming - beyond the Oct 1844 date.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

This is all VERY interesting but without getting into a theological discussion, what should we do, if anything about the Popes desire to be included in this new world government?

The Pope has a lot of world influence today via his almost 1 billion member status (which might only be 600 or 700 Million when you consider that a baby who is christened as a catholic and grows up to join the Southern Baptist church - is still counted by Catholics as a "member" on thier books). In any case it is not up to Adventists to say "don't listen to what the Pope says about finances or helping the poor". That was never our mission.

The Pope is the "ultimate lobbiest" when it comes to "votes" on a world scale. He has a very large block that tend to vote as he dictates. But the world leaders would be foolish to suppose that the Pope speaks for all Christians on all matters.

in Christ,

Bob

[Joe_in_RP]

Hopefully everyone realizes we should not pick a date for Jesus return.

Well specifically what should our behavior be?

As a church, Institutions, or people?

The one thing I have not seen is that we should be informing people what is going on. What the Pope is planning and how its all taking shape. So I can infer from all this discussion that we should hold our tongue and let people see things unfold themselves.

I can further infer that the current events are unrelated to the third angels message.

[BobRyan]

Nope I would never say that silence is the answer.

A very loud - Signs of the times message is hugely important. Do a scan of Ellen White's material on "signs of the time" - lots of material there telling us we should be sounding the trumpet!

In fact she says EVERY calamity "is a sign" that the end is near.

She argues for constantly keeping an "end is near" message out there and constantly referencing the signs of the times.

For example Here is "a sign" - I understand that for the first time in our history - the Adventist General Conference Quinquinium (of 1995) had the papal flag of the "Holy See" marched onto the platform at the conference.

I have also recently been informed that there was a Papal envoy or observer invited by the GC to the 1990 session and that person addressed the session in a speech.

I am all for being friends with our Catholic brethren - but I think we should keep a distance from formal organizational ties - because we "still believe" that the Catholic church is what it always claimed to be. In fact the RCC claims that the "exterminate heretics" clause of the Lateran IV council writen into Canon Law is still "infallible".

in Christ,

Bob

[LifeHiscost]

Where do we get the idea that God keeps postponing his schedule because Adventist are not ready? It's humorous at least to think that we can "hasten" the return of the Christ... especially considering that God knows the future perfectly, and nothing takes Him by a surprise.

But, there's this idea floating around the LDS and SDA circles that we can speed up the coming of Christ by doing certain things

LOL.

"Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells."2 Peter 3:11-13 NKJV

Regards!

[LifeHiscost]

3) God's ultimate plan and timing remain unchanged

If a person sets up their own opinion as opposed to what the Word says, it will be revealed in the life of the individual.

"Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells."2 Peter 3:11-13 NKJV

Regards!

[Richard Holbrook]

The world has lost its moral compass. Unbriddled and unprincipled capitalism has given us morally bankrupt businessmen and politicians. The only entity that has moral courage to speak out against corruption these days is the pope. And you rail against it as conspiracy? I see no conspiracy. Perhaps I'm blind. But what I see is just a natural outgrowth of the times.

I think perhaps you are blind Gerry. Have you ever heard of a book called the Great Controversy? Perhaps you should read it before you applaud the pope of all people, for his moral courage. The pope and the Catholic church are the instruments Satan has used to decieve and mislead the whole world. You say he "has the courage to speak out against corruption". The Catholic church is corruption Gerry!

They're the ones who gave the world the false Sabbath, Idol worship, the belief that God will burn the wicked for eternity, and basically every spiritual counterfeit and deception there is. Not to mention the fact that they are responsible for more deaths than the holocaust, of God's true believers. All this is in the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation, and in the history books.

Can you not see where all this is leading?

Capitalism is not our problem. what would you prefer,Communism?

[Richard Holbrook]

Ellen White said the persecution would return in our day. What better way for that to happen than for the pope to be in control of things. He already controls far more than you know, obviously. I can't believe I'm having to say this to an SDA!

Our problem as a whole is that we are spiritually blind.

Rev 3:16-18 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and [that] the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

[Dr. Rich]

Rich4Truth, and pray tell where did the Catholics get their ideas from? If you complain about them, then you had better investigate why, how and when they got their start and the ideas and doctine they developed. And remember, EGW also said she had a vision from God that Jesus would return in her day too. Did that happen?

fccool, I would have to agree 100% with what you said about anyone changing the time when Jesus was actually going to come. The only think Jesus said He didn't know while He was on Earth was when He was going to come. But He did say that only His Father knew.

In Revelation 1:1-3 we see that the Father told him the timeing and Jesus shared it with ONLY the bonservants living in the last age-the wise as found in Dan. 12:10. This information is not for the rest of the world--they will get it from the 144k and the 5 wise during the time of trouble and the info will get some of them killed.