What does the SDA church stand for?

[BobRyan]

It is not possible for Ellen White to have a prophecy not fulfilled. Why? Because we can always claim that it was conditional. Thus .... all of her words are claimed to be from God because they can simply be called 'conditional' even though no mention of the condition exists.

A "funny way to exegete" Jeremiah 18 is simply to "ignore it" and to argue that you have not thought through how you will apply the test of "prediction" in the light of "conditional elements" in blessings or curses.

But we do see that solution tried from time to time.

I enjoy watching people do it.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

“The hour will come; it is not far distant, and some of us who now believe will be alive upon the earth, and shall see the prediction verified, and hear the voice of the archangel and the trump of God echo from mountain and plain and sea to the uttermost parts of the earth.”--RH July 31, 1888. {LDE 37.2}

This is a good example, that prophetic utterance can be conditional, that is, unless there are those on this earth from that time now approximately 141 years old. Or would this be referring to those resurrected just prior to Jesus return in glory?

Regards!

Amen! It is the big "maybe" about Jeremiah 18 actually being a valid text of scripture that is "true".

The insightful point that Jeremiah 18 applied EVEN in the case of Jonah's "certain doom" prophecy predicting that Ninevan would be destroyed in 40 days.

Things to think about. hmmm....

in Christ

Bob

[Musicman1228]

There are conditional prophecies in Scripture, Ex.: Dan.9:24 and on. This prophecy is conditional upon Israel accomplishing what God required of them in v.24, that is "to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet, and to anoint a most holy place." If they did accomplish this task then vision and prophecy concerning the appointed time of the end would be sealed up because it would no longer apply. Only when this was accomplished would the 2nd part of the prophecy listed in Dan. 9:25-27 would come to pass, after which the King would return to literal Israel. Since Israel DID NOT accomplish the first part (we know this because we are still here on earth) the 2nd WILL NEVER be fulfilled. Since Jesus knew that Israel would not accomplish this task He said that the Kingdom would be given to another people that would accomplish what literal Israel did not.

Now, today, all prophecy concerning the time of the end will happen just as given in Revelation and those parts of Daniel that apply to the appointed time of the end. Any prophecy given by anyone that disagree with these prophecies is false because none of these end time prophecies are conditional; they will happen.

Ellen White in GC page 433 says this: "Therefore the announcement that the temple of God was opened in heaven and the ark of His testament was seen points to the opening of the most holy place of the heavenly sanctuary in 1844 as Christ entered there to perform the closing work of the atonement."

Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever.” Rev.11:15.

Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple. There were flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake, and heavy hail. Rev.11:19.

EGW said in Great Controversy that the event that occurs as listed in Rev. 11:19 happened in 1844. This is very clear.

Jesus in Rev. 11 says through the prophet John that the Ark is seen in Heaven from within the Temple AFTER the sounding of the 7th Trumpet. The 7th Trumpet occurs accompanied by lightning, rumblings, thunder, an earthquake and heavy hail. There is NO historic evidence that suggests that any of those things have yet occurred. We also know for sure that the 5th Trumpet has not yet sounded because Satan and his demons have not yet been released from the abyss. This also means that the release of the 6th Trumpet has not yet occurred either.

Therefore, the prophecy where EGW saw the opening of the Temple and the Ark of the Covenant in Heaven happening in 1844 COULD NOT POSSIBLY be true. If it is not true then it is false. Therefore EGW is a false prophet for giving a false prophecy. God does not contradict His own prophecy. It is not God that is wrong here; God is perfectly capable of showing EGW prophecy that confirmed what was already given in Rev.11:19. What could possibly be the excuse for this error? Only that EGW could not have been getting her information from the true Spirit of Prophecy. This is by no means the only problems that EGW has with inaccurate prophecy concerning the appointed time of the end.

Comments?

[fccool]

Of course, the problem becomes then distinguishing the "conditional" prophecies. You see, if the prophecy does not come true, then it is "conditional"... it's a win-win.

I choose not to trust such things outside of the closed canon. But, I don't mean to say that I could not be wrong about it. But even if I am wrong... my salvation depends on words of Christ, and not the words of mrs. White... Not to say that there are some genuine prophetic words that she has written

[Dr. Rich]

Good choice

[Richard Holbrook]

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

What she said here was not a conditional prophecy. If it was, then what was the condition? How much evidence does one need to prove her vision was not of God? I give up!

It is conditional in the sense that Christ could have returned in the 1880s and early 90s. This is what Ellen White states clearly in Last Day Events, pp. 36-39; also Ev. 695, 696. The Bible also contains conditional prophecies. See, for instance, Deut. 28; Jonah 3: 4. I don't find it hard to believe at all that Christ could have come at that time if the church had responded differently than it did. After all, the Bible shows that the children of Israel could have entered directly into the Promised Land if they hadn't rebelled against God and His prophet Moses. It seems obvious that the church rebelled against the 1888 Message and against the Spirit of Prophecy, so I don't think it should be a surprise to us that we're still here.

I see lots of evidence in the Bible that what humans do does have an impact on what God does. For instance, we have the evidence of the Fall, the Flood, the destruction of Sodom; the blessings and the cursings; the 70 week prophecy regarding Israel; the conditional prophecies of Isaiah, Ezekiel, Jeremiah, Zechariah; and the letters to the churches in Rev. Lots of people do not take into account the fact that the Bible contains conditional prophecies regarding the nation of Israel if it had accepted the Messiah. Things could have happened quite differently than they did. God did not force Israel to reject the Messiah. Christ would have been killed but His death didn't have to happen exactly as it did.

Well put John317, Thank you. One would do well to study those references you have given, and there are more. Ellen White spells out exactly why the Lord didn't come back then. It was because of conditions in the church. How much worse are things now in the church than they were then. Here we have people saying her vision was not of God. God is very displeased when we lightly regard his prophets. (or make the testimony of none effect)

Only this time I don't think there will be another 40 year wandering. I don't see where it would even be possible, the way things are happening.

Terrible times are just ahead. But Jesus is coming soon. Praise God.

Hold fast that which is good. 1Thess 5:21 He that endures to the end, the same shall be saved. Matt 24:13

[Richard Holbrook]

The very last deception of Satan will be to make of none effect the testimony of the Spirit of God. {Mar 158.3}

Our Saviour did not appear as soon as we hoped. But has the Word of the Lord failed? Never! It should be remembered that the promises and the threatenings of God are alike conditional. {Ev 695.1}

We may have to remain here in this world because of insubordination many more years, as did the children of Israel; but for Christ's sake, His people should not add sin to sin by charging God with the consequence of their own wrong course of action.--Letter 184, 1901. {Ev 696.3}

Had the whole Adventist body united upon the commandments of

God and the faith of Jesus, how widely different would have been our history! {Ev 695.3}

Had the church of Christ done her appointed work as the Lord ordained, the whole world would before this have been warned and the Lord Jesus would have come to our earth in power and great glory.--DA 633, 634 (1898). {LDE 38.2}

[John317]

The very last deception of Satan will be to make of none effect the testimony of the Spirit of God. {Mar 158.3}

There will be a hatred kindled against the testimonies which is satanic. The workings of Satan will be to unsettle the faith of the churches in them, for this reason: Satan cannot have so clear a track to bring in his deceptions and bind up souls in his delusions if the warnings and reproofs and counsels of the Spirit of God are heeded.-- Letter 40, 1890.

Selected Messages Book 1 (1958), page 48, paragraph 4; Chapter Title: Attitudes Toward the Testimonies

[LifeHiscost]

Originally Posted By: Rich4truth

The very last deception of Satan will be to make of none effect the testimony of the Spirit of God. {Mar 158.3}

There will be a hatred kindled against the testimonies which is satanic. The workings of Satan will be to unsettle the faith of the churches in them, for this reason: Satan cannot have so clear a track to bring in his deceptions and bind up souls in his delusions if the warnings and reproofs and counsels of the Spirit of God are heeded.-- Letter 40, 1890.

Selected Messages Book 1 (1958), page 48, paragraph 4; Chapter Title: Attitudes Toward the Testimonies

"Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts," 2 Peter 3:3 KJV

" Had Adventists, after the great disappointment in 1844, held fast their faith and followed on unitedly in the opening providence of God, receiving the message of the third angel and in the power of the Holy Spirit proclaiming it to the world, they would have seen the salvation of God, the Lord would have wrought mightily with their efforts, the work would have been completed, and Christ would have come ere this to receive His people to their reward. But in the period of doubt and uncertainty that followed the disappointment, many of the advent believers yielded their faith. . . . Thus the work was hindered, and the world was left in darkness. Had the whole Adventist body united upon the commandments of God and the

faith of Jesus, how widely different would have been our history!

"{Ev 695.3}

"-We may have to remain here in this world because of insubordination many more years, as did the children of Israel; but for Christ's sake, His people should not add sin to sin by charging God with the consequence of their own wrong course of action.-- Letter 184, 1901. {Ev" 696.3)

"--When the storm of persecution really breaks upon us, the true sheep will hear the true Shepherd's voice. Self-denying efforts will be put forth to save the lost, and many who have strayed from the fold will come back to follow the great Shepherd. The people of God will draw together, and present to the enemy a united front. . . . The love of Christ, the love of our brethren, will testify to the world that we have been with Jesus and learned of Him. Then will the message of the third angel swell to a loud cry, and the whole earth will be lightened with the glory of the Lord.--"Testimonies, vol. 6, p. 401. (1900) {Ev 693.2}

Regards!

[BobRyan]

There are conditional prophecies in Scripture, Ex.: Dan.9:24 and on.

[Dr. Rich]

Bob, please tell me what happens after the 7th trumpet? (Rev. 11:15-19) Pray tell did all of this happen already? Has the kingdom of the world already become the kingdom of our Lord? Has the reward already been given to the bond-servants? Well, has all of this been done already? You can't have it both ways.

Oh, and you probably didn't understand about 'condition' in Dan. 9:24--the timeing was NOT conditional, but IF they got rid of sin, then the prophecies regarding the end days that we are now living in would have stayed sealed. (Perhaps the problem we have here is a lack of understanding the communication.)

[BobRyan]

Bob, please tell me what happens after the 7th trumpet? (Rev. 11:15-19) Pray tell did all of this happen already?

[Richard Holbrook]

You're right Bob.....

[jasd]

>>A "funny way to exegete" Jeremiah 18 is simply to "ignore it" and to argue that you have not thought through how you will apply the test of "prediction" in the light of "conditional elements" in blessings or curses.

But we do see that solution tried from time to time.<<

If one notices, it becomes evident early on in Jeremiah 18 that the subjects are the “house of Israel”, the “men of Judah”, and the “inhabitants of Jerusalem” – all of whom were under the conditional covenant established at Sinai.

That would not bear upon unconditional covenants or unilateral promises made by Gd. I think the crux of the ‘dialogue’ lies therein; that is,

with the covenants and promises of Gd that must stand per His word. Given that,

yes, conditional is conditional, no big deal. (it must be remembered though, that Gd has “bowels of mercy” – forgiving unto the uttermost)

Quote:

Quote:Bob Ryan

For example in Dan 9:13 we have the 6th trumpet,

Dan 9:13 As [it is] written in the law of Moses, all this evil is come upon us: yet made we not our prayer before the LORD our God, that we might turn from our iniquities, and understand thy truth.

Rev 9:14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.

Say what!?

Quote:

Quote:Bob Ryan

...but in Dan 10:9 we have the great dissappointement experience of the Millerites "sweet as honey -- but bitter in your stomach".

Dan 10:9 Yet heard I the voice of his words: and when I heard the voice of his words, then was I in a deep sleep on my face, and my face toward the ground.

Say what!? Not to be disrespectful or irreligious, but the above appears to be some sort of typo, or arcanery wrapped in a mystery inside esoterica – or just so much phoof.

Let’s stipulate to my confusion and otherwise ignorance..., but wha’s wid your above exposition? help! help!

[Musicman1228]

In the text quote from Bob Ryan it should be Rev. 10:9 not Dan. This is probably a typo, it happens. As to the exegesis; I don't see how this text (in context) could be speaking of the Millerite experience because the angel is talking specifically to John and then is says, "And I was told, “You must again prophesy about many peoples and nations and languages and kings.”

The 'again' there is really important, and because of it we must decide what the initial prophecy was so that we can know what the 'again' prophecy is.

It appears to me that the 'little scroll' in the angel's hand could be related to the content of the seven thunders which the angel told John not to write down. After all, why write down what was in the seven thunders if it is already written down on the 'little scroll'. Also remember that the mighty angel told John to seal up the vision contained in the seven thunders, which could be why the scroll tasted good in the mouth but bitter in the stomach; John knew what the seven thunders meant he just couldn't tell anyone about it. As to the content of the 'little scroll' and the seven thunders - I think that is what verse 11 is talking about.

[LifeHiscost]

Good choice

"Hear me, O Judah and you inhabitants of Jerusalem: Believe in the LORD your God, and you shall be established; believe His prophets, and you shall prosper." 2 Chronicles 20:20 NKJV

"He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me."Luke 10:16 NIV

"I do not pray for these alone,but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me."John 17:20 NKJV

Regards!

[LifeHiscost]

Just a side note, most prophecy is understood best after it has come to pass. Also, prophetic word is more for unbelievers than believers.

"....prophecy is for a sign, not to unbelievers but to those who believe." 1 Corinthians 14:21 NASB

Regards!

[BobRyan]

Prophecy is a sign to believers - not unbelievers.

Tongues is a sign to unbelievers. (When talking about the actual Bible gift of tongues -- not the fake stuff we see today).

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

>>A "funny way to exegete" Jeremiah 18 is simply to "ignore it" and to argue that you have not thought through how you will apply the test of "prediction" in the light of "conditional elements" in blessings or curses.

But we do see that solution tried from time to time.<<

If one notices, it becomes evident early on in Jeremiah 18 that the subjects are the “house of Israel”, the “men of Judah”, and the “inhabitants of Jerusalem” – all of whom were under the conditional covenant established at Sinai.

[BobRyan]

Quote:

Quote:Bob Ryan

For example in Dan 9:13 (oops! that should have been - Rev 9:13) we have the 6th trumpet,

Dan 9:13 As [it is] written in the law of Moses, all this evil is come upon us: yet made we not our prayer before the LORD our God, that we might turn from our iniquities, and understand thy truth.

Rev 9:14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.

Say what!?

Quote:

Quote:Bob Ryan

...but in Dan 10:9 (oops that should be Rev 10:9)we have the great dissappointement experience of the Millerites "sweet as honey -- but bitter in your stomach".

Dan 10:9 Yet heard I the voice of his words: and when I heard the voice of his words, then was I in a deep sleep on my face, and my face toward the ground.

Say what!?

Typo - noted.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Regarding Rev 10:9 (actually for context in your text below ... read from Rev 10:4 - to 10:9)

Rev 10:4 says NOT to write what was in the 7 thunders. (Hint - the 7 thunders are very likely the voice of God announcing the day and hour of Christ's appearing. An event that happens after the close of probation and near the end of the 7 last plagues).

As to the exegesis; I don't see how this text (in context) could be speaking of the Millerite experience because the angel is talking specifically to John and then is says, "And I was told, “You must again prophesy about many peoples and nations and languages and kings.”

The 'again' there is really important, and because of it we must decide what the initial prophecy was so that we can know what the 'again' prophecy is.

It appears to me that the 'little scroll' in the angel's hand could be related to the content of the seven thunders which the angel told John not to write down.

No it can not -- since nothing is written in regard to the 7 thunders and at no time do we see John writing in that little scroll.

Instead - that "little scroll" is the already written book of Daniel that WAS sealed but is in the 1840's unsealed.

Trying to get "was written down" for the 7 thunders when the text says "do NOT write down what they said" is a pretty far stretch of the imagination. Exegesis is not going to allow that.

in Christ,

Bob

[LifeHiscost]

Prophecy is a sign to believers - not unbelievers.

Tongues is a sign to unbelievers. (When talking about the actual Bible gift of tongues -- not the fake stuff we see today).

in Christ,

Bob

Sorry, ("prophetic word is more for unbelievers than believers) was meant to say prophecy was meant for believers. Unbelievers cannot understand prophecy as it is light and they (unbelievers) prefer darkness since their deeds are evil. That, of course, would be if they had refused the light or had not yet received the Light that came down from heaven or refused to return to Him Who is light.

"And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil." John 3:19 KJV

"When you are in distress and all these things have come upon you, in the latter days you will return to the LORD your God and listen to His voice."

Deuteronomy 4:30 NASB

Regards!

[BobRyan]

I thought that might be the case. I also do that same "post opposite" thing from time to time. I must be slippin'

in Christ,

Bob

[Musicman1228]

Both believers and unbelievers do not and will not understand prophecy. Prophecy is only for the wise (Dan.12:10) because the wise are the ones that "purify themselves" and "make themselves white and refined". The wicked are everyone that believes that doing this is impossible and unnecessary because righteousness is the free gift of God, or because they just don't care. This is why Jesus said that "narrow is the gate that leads to life, and few there are that find it."

Do Tim Le Hay and Jerry Jenkins (authors of Left Behind) have the correct reading of prophecy? Do they not make the statement that they are true believers in Jesus? Being a believer is not enough in acquiring the wisdom needed to understand end time prophecy.

[jasd]

Quote:

Quote:jasd

If one notices, it becomes evident early on in Jeremiah 18 that the subjects are the “house of Israel”, the “men of Judah”, and the “inhabitants of Jerusalem” – all of whom were under the conditional covenant established at Sinai.

>>A distinction without a difference "at best".<<

It goes to conditional versus unconditional.

>>At worst it ignores the not-so-subtle detail in Jeremiah 18 that explicitly creates the "generalized" form of the principle.<<

Jeremiah 18:6 O house of Israel, [cannot] I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay [is] in the potter’s hand, so [are] ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.

The above text accomplishes two things: it reinforces the immediate subject “O house of Israel” and it introduces to the ‘conditional clause’ of Jeremiah 18:7-10 – the allegorical ingredients “clay and potter” and renders what follows verse six – hypothetical - rather than covenantal; an animal of a different stripe, if you will...

>>Note the generic principle applicable to any nation hence the applicability of this principle to Ninevah in the book of Jonah.<<

...which, re Nineveh, reinforces my observation that our Gd whose hand is not short that it cannot save, longsuffering and merciful – desires to forgive.

>>Hence the conclusion that Jonah's certain doom message is not an example of a failed prophecy.<<

I agree; however, I’d further note that the singular example of the repentance of Nineveh does not invalidate the specifics of Gd’s word re any given matter.

>>This is incredibly obvious to the reader as you probably have suspected already.<<

Much of the various literary devices of Hebraic writing are utilized by Jeremiah’s scribe.

>>But as for the "distinction without a difference" your point fails even in the specific case of Israel<<

You might want to rethink your position before it becomes cememted foursquare wrong. Gd made promises that are eternal and many of them belong to physical Israel – and were unconditionally given, bequeathed, and still obtain.

>>...since as Romans 9 points out - the saints ARE spiritual Israel<<

Not so. If one wishes to disinherit physical Israel – he or she must exegete elsewhere.

>>...and so the promised blessing in the case of Ellen White's prediction regarding the Israel of God and the 2nd coming - would STILL apply.<<

Sorry, I am unfamiliar with the good woman’s catalogue of predictions – especially the one that is being alluded to here.

>>Hence the "distinction without a difference" in the BEST case scenario for your point above.<<

Be that as it may, you might want to revisit your ideas re Romans 9.