I'm confused about one aspect of Jesus crucifixion

[Dr. Rich]

LifeHisCost, may I ask then, what is the job given to the Bondservants of Jesus? Are not they to present the words of Jesus just as Jesus commanded His disciples to do? So what comes first? The words of Jesus or the Holy Spirit? How can the Holy Spirit lead anyone into any truth IF the person is not seeking truth first?

Which leads me to another question-Why would God blind someone and then give them revelations IF that person was not first seeking truth?

[Musicman1228]

In order to get to the root of the problem I would first like to establish the year in which Jesus Christ was crucified because this will help us identify not only the year but the day of the week upon which Jesus was killed.

It is well established that the final week of the 70 weeks of the prophecy in Dan.9:24 began in 27 C.E. (If this is a problem let me know and I will go into more detail.) By the prophecy we know that Jesus was to be crucified in the middle of the week, which would be the Wednesday year. That year would then be 30 C.E. We know that Passover always occurred on the 14th day on or following the Spring Equinox (Ex.12:6), so what we must establish is upon what day and date the Spring Equinox occurred in the year 30 C.E. This can be done by going to the Spring Phenomena 25 B.C.E. to 38 C.E. page of the U.S. Naval Observatory web site. (There is a copy of that web site at the link below.)

The table shows the day and dates for the Vernal (Spring) Equinox for those years. The data shows that in 30 C.E. the date for the Spring Equinox was March 22, a Wednesday. Fourteen days following this date would be the Passover for that year, which just happens to also be a Wednesday. By extrapolation we can see that since Jesus Christ is the Passover lamb (the type spoken of in Exodus 12) He was put on the cross and died on that Wednesday.

He did have a meal with His disciples on the previous Tuesday, but because of the description of the way in which this meal was eaten it could not possibly have been a Passover meal. Most notable differences would include the fact that at this meal Jesus washed His disciples feet which meant that they had to take off their sandals. He and His disciples were reclining at the table, and they drank wine. The requirements for eating the Passover required being fully dressed ready to travel, eating the meal standing up, and drinking only water. This aside from the fact that Jesus as the Passover lamb would be dead by the time the Passover was eaten.

Hard evidence points to a Wednesday crucifixion. 3 days and 3 nights later would be Sabbath evening before sunset as the resurrection.

U.S.Naval Observatory data

[LifeHiscost]

LifeHisCost, may I ask then, what is the job given to the Bondservants of Jesus?

[LifeHiscost]

The last post was so lengthy I chose to separate the latter half, which in my estimation the first half would be sadly lacking if the latter half were not included.

"For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; and the former things will not be remembered or come to mind.

"But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create; for behold, I create Jerusalem for rejoicing and her people for gladness.

"I will also rejoice in Jerusalem and be glad in My people;

And there will no longer be heard in her the voice of weeping and the sound of crying.

"No longer will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, or an old man who does not live out his days;

For the youth will die at the age of one hundred

And the one who does not reach the age of one hundred

Will be thought accursed.

"They will build houses and inhabit them;

They will also plant vineyards and eat their fruit.

"They will not build and another inhabit, they will not plant and another eat;

For as the lifetime of a tree, so will be the days of My people, and My chosen ones will wear out the work of their hands.

"They will not labor in vain, or bear children for calamity;

For they are the offspring of those blessed by the LORD,

And their descendants with them.

"It will also come to pass that before they call, I will answer; and while they are still speaking, I will hear.

"The wolf and the lamb will graze together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox; and dust will be the serpent's food They will do no evil or harm in all My holy mountain," says the LORD." Isaiah 65:17-25 ASV

And I'd like some explanation about that bit of information that speaks to the youth of a hundred years since their will be no death in the earth made new.

Cheers!!

Blessings!

[Kevin H]

He did have a meal with His disciples on the previous Tuesday, but because of the description of the way in which this meal was eaten it could not possibly have been a Passover meal. Most notable differences would include the fact that at this meal Jesus washed His disciples feet which meant that they had to take off their sandals. He and His disciples were reclining at the table, and they drank wine. The requirements for eating the Passover required being fully dressed ready to travel, eating the meal standing up, and drinking only water. This aside from the fact that Jesus as the Passover lamb would be dead by the time the Passover was eaten. U.S.Naval Observatory data

Musicman: The Roman free and wealthy always ate reclining, because of this in Jesus day the Jews taught that even if you stand at every meal, you need to recline in the style of a free person at least once a year and the minumum would be to do this on passover. The standing and ready to travel was in Egypt and ready to go. In Roman times it was to be a symbol of being free to recline. And by Jesus' day they were already having the traditional 3 cups of wine.

Once again, I agree with you about the Tuesday night passover, as while the majority of the Jews would have had passover on Friday, the Essenes and other sub groups would have their passover on Tuesdays of the week, and they all had passover a reclining meal, like Roman Freepeople, to celebrate that Yahweh set them free, and passover had the 3 cups of wine.

However you still have Jesus moving around a lot, different inquires and trials and time in prision, tourchered and on the cross by 9:00 AM, too short a time span for all that is needed, and makes Jesus' inquireries illegal. While being arrested late Tuesday night/early Wednesday morning, having an inquiry, Peter denies and sees Jesus lead to the jail, Jesus kept in the jail til sometime Thursday and have over thursday night and early friday the other inquires and trials etc. you have good time and the apperence of a leagal trial, have Jesus die at the time of the temple's and majority of Jew's passover lamb scarifice at 3:00 PM Friday and raise on the feast of first fruits on Sunday.

You have too much speculation and not enought evidence, and tap dancing over apperent contradictions in scripture which makes sense as you understand Tuesday to be Jesus having a passover meal at the time that some Jews were having passover, and dieing when the rest of the Jews would be having passover, and as I said before, the texts about the resurection are word for word quotes of the feast of first fruits that occured early Sunday morning after passover. I'm sorry but there is too much of a tieing in the text for the times Jews would have known for the passover lamb to die and too much tieing in the text to the feast of the first fruits. You don't need to speculate and tap dance over scripture, just a little history on the two different dates that the Jews would argue over which would have been passover, and that passover was in Jesus day the one meal you had to eat reclining and drinking 3 cups of wine, the words for the sacrifice of the passover lamb and the words for the first fruits, you would have the readers say "So Jesus died the hour of the passover lamb (and John is full of passover imagry in the crucifiction)and raise on the feast of first fruits on Sunday morning" all the gospels quote the feast of the first fruits only change it to the resurection, and Paul calls Jesus our first fruits, again refering to this Sunday morning feast from the Old Testament, I find much more convincing than your arguments.

[Kevin H]

Oops. looks too late to edit: The Essenes and some of the other minority groups of Jews would have passover two to three days earlier than the temple, and that is how with a Friday temple passover, depending on what year, the other passover would have been on Tuesday or Wednesday. Thus the minority passover on Tuesday again indicates the Friday Temple passover, and Jesus using the one for when to eat with his disciples and to make them think about what was happening, and the temple passover on friday when he died the time of the passover lamb, and raised on Sunday morning at the same time the first fruits offering was being waved before the alter.

[Musicman1228]

LifeHisCost-

Good post. You ask a great question as to if this is the earth made new then why the comment about a person dying at 100 years being accursed (there is that pesky word again). Here is my understanding-take it for what it's worth.

This prophecy in Isaiah is exclusively for Israel (at the time the Kingdom of Heaven), and speaks about what their nation would be like IF they accomplished the plan and purpose God designed them for (see Daniel 9:24 and on). This is not (as most view it today) a prophecy about the what the whole world would be like after the Messiah came. In other words this is not a universal prophecy that will affect the whole world in our future, it is a specific prophecy for a specific time period for a specific people; that is, Israel during it's time as the Kingdom of Heaven on earth. Since the 2nd and last probationary period (of 2) for Israel to accomplish the plan and purpose of God is now over (ended in 33 C.E. after the 70 week prophecy ended) the time period and purpose of this prophecy is now over. It will no longer be fulfilled, which is the reason that the earth made new will look different than the picture given in this prophecy.

I hope this helps.

[Kevin H]

Musicman; after my sharp posts to you about the crucificiton and feasts, I have to say that I like your above post to LifeHisCost. Indeed the prophecy was what could have happened locally and we draw analogies, and analogies are not exact. This is a lesson we need to learn with prophecys. Prophets wrote to their local events and we apply the principle to similar events that cycle around in history. No I am not sure I'm too comfortable with the phrase "2nd and last" probationary period for Israel, but I agree with the consept. I believe that the Hebrews still have probation but that they are to live under the rules of exile theology rather than land theology. Even those in the land have to live under the principles of exile theology as the conditions that God used land theology has changed. Ancient Israel was the center of the world where the great trade routes meet and where the Canaanites were the most deprived people in the world. These situations / conditions no longer exist, and thus God can not use the land in the same way, at best it's only to call the Hebrews back to their history, and to teach them how to share, so that God can still use them under the principles of exile theology.

Once again, excellent post!

[Musicman1228]

Kevin H,

In contract law there are two types of contracts: unilateral and bilateral. Inside these contracts (or covenants) are stipulations related to performance. One person/party sets a condition on their performance by establishing a condition for the performance of the other party; you do this for me and I'll do that for you. This is common law contracts. The contract is made void (vacated) if one party does not perform as the contract requires. This does not take a judge and ruling, it is done by operation of Law.

This is exactly what happened between God and Israel. At Sinai God told Israel the He would be their God if they would be His people (Ex.19:5-8). He gave them the requirements of His Covenant, the Ten Commandments, and they agreed to perform as specified.

Today we tend to believe that the Covenant/contract between God and Israel was bilateral; an agreement reached between two equal parties. The problem with that idea is the part about the 'equal parties'. God and Israel were NEVER equal. In reality the Covenant between God and Israel then and Spiritual Israel now is that the Covenant is unilateral; God sets the stipulations and Israel must perform. Then and only then will God do what what He told them He would do for them.

The other part of a contract is the idea of ratification. At Sinai the people ratified the Covenant by saying collectively "What God has said we will do"; at that time (then) God made Israel His holy nation and separated them from the world by giving them the land of promise. Now mind you that took 40 years, but it eventually happened. Then God set a further condition on the Covenant by establishing the corporate Sabbath year rest every 7th year, and after a week of years another rest on the the 50th year as the year of Jubilee (Lev.25). The stipulation was that Israel must rest on the designated Sabbath years (a week of years-7, a week of Sabbath years-7 x7=49). God then further said the if they violated 70 Sabbath years of rest then He would kick them off of the land, one year for each of the 70 violations.

This was the first probationary period. Israel did violate 70 Sabbath years and God did kick them off of the land by having Babylon under Nebuchadnezzar overthrow the nation of Israel. (2Chron.36:20-21)

Then God told Israel through Jeremiah and later Daniel that He was willing to take them back, as long as they would ratify the Covenant once again. This is Israel's second probationary period. Israel's captivity ended right on time (Dan.9:1-2). At the end of Israel's captivity in Babylon a decree was issued by Cyrus the Mead to let the people go. And later in 457 B.C.E. a decree was issued by Artaxerxes to restore and rebuild Jerusalem, which gave back to the Jews their national identity, their nationhood.

Daniel was given a prophecy concerning this second chance God was giving Israel. This is found in Dan.9:24-27. The central factor in this prophecy was the stipulation that the Most Holy (one or place) be anointed. This pertains to both Jesus Christ the Messiah being anointed as King, and the Most Holy place in the temple being established as the seat of the throne of the Lord forever. Neither of these occurred.

Jesus came as the Messiah to Israel to prepare them to be his Kingdom. Throughout the hundreds of years following the exodus from Babylon Israel had still not ratified the Covenant. Jesus came to get them to commit once and for all to the Covenant/contract that God had established at Sinai. In the end not only did Israel as a nation not ratify the Covenant but they killed the Son of God who was to be their King (Matt.21:33-40).

This occurred in 30 C.E. The 490 years of Dan. 9:24 ended with the last week of years of the prophecy in 33 C.E. At this time Israel became as any other nation and was no longer the Kingdom of God. Jesus made a prophecy about this event:

Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people producing its fruits. And the one who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; and when it falls on anyone, it will crush him.” Matt.21:43-44.

This is why none of the prophecies about the end of time concerning literal Israel will be fulfilled; because Israel as the kingdom of God is no longer around to participate in their fulfillment. Yes, Israel is a nation today, but IT IS NOT THE KINGDOM OF GOD.

The Kingdom indeed has been given to another people that will eventually bear good fruit; but before that can happen they must wake up-and right now they are sound asleep. They are the 10 bridesmaids of the prophecy in Matt. 25; they are those that sleep in Rev.3:3; they are those that Jesus speaks of as the Kingdom of Heaven in His parable/prophecies; they are spiritual Israel today, out of whom come the 144,000 in Rev.7 and 14, and Matt.24:45-51; they are the rock cut our without hands in Dan.2:35, 44-45; they are the wise of Dan.12:10; they are the Bondservants that Jesus told John to write to in Rev.1:1-3; THEY ARE THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN ON EARTH TODAY-THE SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST CHURCH.

The great tragedy in all of this is that the people of the SDA church do not know who they are. Why? Because no one is doing what Jesus told them to do and that is preach the gospel OF THE KINGDOM (Matt.24:14). And why is no one doing this? Because no one up until now has told them who they are and what they are to do. They have been spending so much time trying to be like the other churches in the world (getting drunk on the false holy spirit) that they have lost their way as the Kingdom of God (their lamps are going out). It's time for us to wake them up. That is why I am spending time on this forum, writing books and papers, doing radio programs, and talking to anyone who will sit still long enough to listen. We are there, people, we are in the Delay after the appointed time of the end. We are within a few short years of the beginning of the 1335 days of Dan.12, which is the shaking and preparing of the SDA church for service in the great tribulation. It is frustrating because now only a few are listening and time is so short. Thank God that He has everything under control as to the timing of when these thing must take place.

[LifeHiscost]

Good post. You ask a great question as to if this is the earth made new then why the comment about a person dying at 100 years being accursed (there is that pesky word again). Here is my understanding-take it for what it's worth.

This prophecy in Isaiah is exclusively for Israel It will no longer be fulfilled, which is the reason that the earth made new will look different than the picture given in this prophecy.

I hope this helps.

Thank you, Musicman. That makes some of the sense I had contemplated. OTOH, does not the information about eating the fruit of the trees we've planted and dwelling in the houses we've built, fit the Scripture of the meek inheriting the earth?

"For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.

But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace. "Psalm 37:10,11

KJV

Blessings!

[Kevin H]

Musicman, another good post, I don't have time to go into details, and I only did one quick read through but my first impression is that we have only have minor differences in applicatoin from what you are saying, but that we both may be in the same ballpark on this issue. After being at each other's throats on the time of the crucifiction and resurection, I'm glad that we have found that we have some thoughts together.

[jasd]

>>12 hours to the daylight<<

Indeed. That acknowledges a dependence on Roman time, which also translates to 12 hours of the night.

>>and 12 hours to the night which to my investigative mind would mean He was near the time of the Spring Equinox.<<

Interesting observation; however, inasmuch as it was stated as a point of fact it probably reflected a more general application, to wit, “it’s only the third hour of the day! ...a bit early to be drunk on new wine, what?” (Acts 2:13-15) (drunk on new wine!? I thought new wine was jammed for toast or reconstitution...)

>>Therefore Jesus knew exactily how many hours there were in one day.<<

One would think so. Three 24-hour periods equaling 72 hours – ipso facto, the period from 4th-day sunset to 7th-day sunset – in the heart of the earth. Simple. No appeal to idioms needed per the very words of Jesus Christ.

[jasd]

>>And I'd like some explanation about that bit of information that speaks to the youth of a hundred years since their will be no death in the earth made new.<<

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

So, when is the earth made new?

>>Cheers!!<<

Right-O!

[jasd]

>>...and raised on Sunday morning at the same time the first fruits offering was being waved before the alter.<<

Wouldn’t that have been accomplished when Jesus Christ was in fact “raised” to the Father (between the times of Mary and Thomas)? and would not have signified antitype, but actualized type; that is, not simply being “raised” from the tomb?

And which altar is actually being spoken-of – the one in Herod’s Temple or that in heaven?

[Kevin H]

>>...and raised on Sunday morning at the same time the first fruits offering was being waved before the alter.<<

Wouldn’t that have been accomplished when Jesus Christ was in fact “raised” to the Father (between the times of Mary and Thomas)? and would not have signified antitype, but actualized type; that is, not simply being “raised” from the tomb?

And which altar is actually being spoken-of – the one in Herod’s Temple or that in heaven?

Except:

1. The text is used for the resurection

2. Your chronology does not work: According to the Bible, First there is the Old Testament feast of first fruits quote, which is connected to the resurection, followed by the women coming to the tomb and find it empty, then Jesus sees Mary and tells her that he has not yet assended to the father.

3. It would have been understood by the early Jewish readers that Jesus died at the time for the passover lamb on Passover (when ever the temple kept the passover) and thus the true passover lamb and rose at the feasts of first fruits, thus the true first fruits and the first fruits of those to be raised from the dead. After the raising Jesus saw the women and told Mary that he had not yet assended to the father.