Who is stronger - God or sin?

[Guest]

By causing the death of the Sovereign of heaven, Satan defeated his own purposes. The death of the Son of God made the death of Satan unavoidable. {CTr 14.5}

Satan and sin will be destroyed for all time, while God's people will live for eternity. Sin does not win out. Sorry.

[Woody]

Who got the most to follow HIM. Satan wins this battle. ANd no matter how distastefull you might view their choice of death .... Satan got them. They will get death.

[Gerr]

Let's figure this out. Who Wins? Who get the most to follow HIS power?

If God's power is to be decided by a popularity vote, He wins hands down by a HUGE margin. Consider: The Hubble telescope is able to see 125 BILLION galaxies. A German supercomputer estimates there are 500 BILLION galaxies in the universe. There could be BILLIONS of stars in EACH galaxy. Even in the unlikely event that there is ONLY ONE inhabited planet in EACH galaxy, and given a few million people in each planet, that gives you people in the trillions who have decided to be on God's side!

[Gerr]

He would not be if they both played by the same rules. But they don't. So Satan wins.

And the prize is DEATH.

Now I understand why you believe even born again Christians will continue to willfully and deliberately continue to sin until the day they die.

[Woody]

Yes dgrimm. Will Satan have more loyality or will God? That there b the question.

[Woody]

Yes thank you. I will correct my ERROR.

[Haldog]

There are many that teach that we cannot overcome sin.

[Just*]

September 1, 1896

by A.T. Jones

It can never be repeated too often, that under the reign of grace it is just as easy to do right, as under the reign of sin it is easy to do wrong. This must be so, for if there is not more power in grace than there is in sin, then there can be no salvation from sin. But there is salvation from sin. This no one who believes Christianity can deny.

Yet salvation from sin certainly depends upon there being more power in grace than there is in sin. Then, there being more power in grace than there is in sin, it cannot possibly be otherwise than that wherever the power of grace can have control, it will be just as easy to do right as without this it is easy to do wrong.

No man ever yet naturally found it difficult to do wrong. His great difficulty has always been to do right. But this is because man naturally is enslaved to a power--the power of sin--that is absolute in its reign. And so long as that power has sway, it is not only difficult but impossible to do the good that he knows and that he would. But let a mightier power than that have sway, then is it not plain enough that it will be just as easy to serve the will of the mightier power, when it reigns, as it was to serve the will of the other power, when it reigned?

But grace is not simply more powerful than is sin. If this were indeed all, even then there would be fullness of hope and good cheer to every sinner in the world. But this, good as it would be, is not all. It is not nearly all. There is much more power in grace than there is in sin. For "where sin abounded, grace did much more abound." And just as much more power in grace than there is in sin, just so much more hope and good cheer there are for every sinner in the world.

How much more power, then, is there in grace than there is in sin? Let me think a moment. Let me ask myself a question or two. Whence comes grace? From God, to be sure. "Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ." Whence comes sin? From the devil, of course. Sin is of the devil, for the devil sinneth from the beginning. Well, then, how much more power is there in grace than there is in sin? It is as plain as ABC that there is just as much more power in grace than there is in sin, as there is more power in God than there is in the devil. It is therefore also perfectly plain that the reign of grace is the reign of God, and that the reign of sin is the reign of Satan. And is it not therefore perfectly plain also that it is just as easy to serve God by the power of God as it is to serve Satan with the power of Satan?

Where the difficulty comes in, in all this, is that so many people try to serve God with the power of Satan. But that can never be done. "Either make the tree good and his fruit good, or else make the tree corrupt and his fruit corrupt." Men cannot gather grapes of thorns nor figs of thistles. The tree must be made good, root and branch. It must be made new. "Ye must be born again." "In Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything nor uncircumcision, but a new creature." Let no one ever attempt to serve God with anything but the present, living power of God that makes him a new creature, with nothing but the much more abundant grace that condemns sin in the flesh and reigns through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord. Then the service of God will indeed be in "newness of life." Then it will be found that His yoke is indeed "easy" and His burden "light." Then His service will be found indeed to be with "joy unspeakable and full of glory."

Did Jesus ever find it difficult to do right? Every one will instantly say, No. But why? He was just as human as we are. He took flesh and blood the same as ours. "The Word was made flesh and dwelt among us." And the kind of flesh that He was made in this world was precisely such as was in this world. "In all things it behooved him to be made like unto his brethren." "In all things!" It does not say, In all things but one. There is no exception. He was made in all things like as we are. He was of Himself as weak as we are, for He said, "I can of mine own self do nothing."

Why, then, being in all things like as we are, did He find it always easy to do right? Because He never trusted to Himself, but His trust was always in God alone. All His dependence was upon the grace of God. He always sought to serve God, only with the power of God. And therefore the Father dwelt in Him, and did the works of righteousness. Therefore it was always easy for Him to do right. But as He is, so are we in this world. He has left us an example, that we should follow His steps. "It is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure," as well as in Him. All power in heaven and in earth is given unto Him, and He desires that you may be strengthened with all might, according to His glorious power. "In him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily," and He strengthens you with might by His Spirit in the inner man, that Christ may dwell in your heart by faith, that you may be "filled with all the fullness of God."

True, Christ partook of the divine nature and so do you if you are a child of promise and not of the flesh, for by the promises ye are partakers of the divine nature. There was nothing given to Him in this world and He had nothing in this world that is not freely given to you or that you may not have.

All this is in order that you may walk in newness of life, that henceforth you may not serve sin, that you may be the servant of righteousness only, that you may be freed from sin, that sin may not have dominion over you, that you may glorify God on the earth, and that you may be like Jesus. And therefore "unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. . . . Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ." And I "beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain."

[Guest]

Excellent post

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

Redwood, your name should be Redface to say that Satan is more powerful than God.

My face color is doing just fine. Expand yur minds folks. God has more power .... but he is required by law to hold it in reserve. He can't force His will. Satan has no such restrictions and can therefore go after us even if we don't want it. He comes and tempts. That is POWER ... just be establishment of the rules.

Satan cannot force the will of a soul who's will is handed over to Christ.

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

Let's figure this out. Who Wins? Who get the most to follow HIS power?

Maybe this is why you teach others that they do not need victory over sin Redwood.

Because you believe satan is stronger than God...

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

Let's figure this out. Who Wins? Who get the most to follow HIS power?

If God's power is to be decided by a popularity vote, He wins hands down by a HUGE margin. Consider: The Hubble telescope is able to see 125 BILLION galaxies. A German supercomputer estimates there are 500 BILLION galaxies in the universe. There could be BILLIONS of stars in EACH galaxy. Even in the unlikely event that there is ONLY ONE inhabited planet in EACH galaxy, and given a few million people in each planet, that gives you people in the trillions who have decided to be on God's side!

Good point Gerry, I like your maths. :-)

Mark

[Twilight]

September 1, 1896

by A.T. Jones

It can never be repeated too often, that under the reign of grace it is just as easy to do right, as under the reign of sin it is easy to do wrong. This must be so, for if there is not more power in grace than there is in sin, then there can be no salvation from sin. But there is salvation from sin. This no one who believes Christianity can deny.

Yet salvation from sin certainly depends upon there being more power in grace than there is in sin. Then, there being more power in grace than there is in sin, it cannot possibly be otherwise than that wherever the power of grace can have control, it will be just as easy to do right as without this it is easy to do wrong.

No man ever yet naturally found it difficult to do wrong. His great difficulty has always been to do right. But this is because man naturally is enslaved to a power--the power of sin--that is absolute in its reign. And so long as that power has sway, it is not only difficult but impossible to do the good that he knows and that he would. But let a mightier power than that have sway, then is it not plain enough that it will be just as easy to serve the will of the mightier power, when it reigns, as it was to serve the will of the other power, when it reigned?

But grace is not simply more powerful than is sin. If this were indeed all, even then there would be fullness of hope and good cheer to every sinner in the world. But this, good as it would be, is not all. It is not nearly all. There is much more power in grace than there is in sin. For "where sin abounded, grace did much more abound." And just as much more power in grace than there is in sin, just so much more hope and good cheer there are for every sinner in the world.

How much more power, then, is there in grace than there is in sin? Let me think a moment. Let me ask myself a question or two. Whence comes grace? From God, to be sure. "Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ." Whence comes sin? From the devil, of course. Sin is of the devil, for the devil sinneth from the beginning. Well, then, how much more power is there in grace than there is in sin? It is as plain as ABC that there is just as much more power in grace than there is in sin, as there is more power in God than there is in the devil. It is therefore also perfectly plain that the reign of grace is the reign of God, and that the reign of sin is the reign of Satan. And is it not therefore perfectly plain also that it is just as easy to serve God by the power of God as it is to serve Satan with the power of Satan?

Where the difficulty comes in, in all this, is that so many people try to serve God with the power of Satan. But that can never be done. "Either make the tree good and his fruit good, or else make the tree corrupt and his fruit corrupt." Men cannot gather grapes of thorns nor figs of thistles. The tree must be made good, root and branch. It must be made new. "Ye must be born again." "In Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything nor uncircumcision, but a new creature." Let no one ever attempt to serve God with anything but the present, living power of God that makes him a new creature, with nothing but the much more abundant grace that condemns sin in the flesh and reigns through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord. Then the service of God will indeed be in "newness of life." Then it will be found that His yoke is indeed "easy" and His burden "light." Then His service will be found indeed to be with "joy unspeakable and full of glory."

Did Jesus ever find it difficult to do right? Every one will instantly say, No. But why? He was just as human as we are. He took flesh and blood the same as ours. "The Word was made flesh and dwelt among us." And the kind of flesh that He was made in this world was precisely such as was in this world. "In all things it behooved him to be made like unto his brethren." "In all things!" It does not say, In all things but one. There is no exception. He was made in all things like as we are. He was of Himself as weak as we are, for He said, "I can of mine own self do nothing."

Why, then, being in all things like as we are, did He find it always easy to do right? Because He never trusted to Himself, but His trust was always in God alone. All His dependence was upon the grace of God. He always sought to serve God, only with the power of God. And therefore the Father dwelt in Him, and did the works of righteousness. Therefore it was always easy for Him to do right. But as He is, so are we in this world. He has left us an example, that we should follow His steps. "It is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure," as well as in Him. All power in heaven and in earth is given unto Him, and He desires that you may be strengthened with all might, according to His glorious power. "In him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily," and He strengthens you with might by His Spirit in the inner man, that Christ may dwell in your heart by faith, that you may be "filled with all the fullness of God."

True, Christ partook of the divine nature and so do you if you are a child of promise and not of the flesh, for by the promises ye are partakers of the divine nature. There was nothing given to Him in this world and He had nothing in this world that is not freely given to you or that you may not have.

All this is in order that you may walk in newness of life, that henceforth you may not serve sin, that you may be the servant of righteousness only, that you may be freed from sin, that sin may not have dominion over you, that you may glorify God on the earth, and that you may be like Jesus. And therefore "unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. . . . Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ." And I "beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain."

Wonderful quote, thank you. :-)

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: Just*

September 1, 1896

by A.T. Jones

It can never be repeated too often, that under the reign of grace it is just as easy to do right, as under the reign of sin it is easy to do wrong. This must be so, for if there is not more power in grace than there is in sin, then there can be no salvation from sin. But there is salvation from sin. This no one who believes Christianity can deny.

Yet salvation from sin certainly depends upon there being more power in grace than there is in sin. Then, there being more power in grace than there is in sin, it cannot possibly be otherwise than that wherever the power of grace can have control, it will be just as easy to do right as without this it is easy to do wrong.

No man ever yet naturally found it difficult to do wrong. His great difficulty has always been to do right. But this is because man naturally is enslaved to a power--the power of sin--that is absolute in its reign. And so long as that power has sway, it is not only difficult but impossible to do the good that he knows and that he would. But let a mightier power than that have sway, then is it not plain enough that it will be just as easy to serve the will of the mightier power, when it reigns, as it was to serve the will of the other power, when it reigned?

But grace is not simply more powerful than is sin. If this were indeed all, even then there would be fullness of hope and good cheer to every sinner in the world. But this, good as it would be, is not all. It is not nearly all. There is much more power in grace than there is in sin. For "where sin abounded, grace did much more abound." And just as much more power in grace than there is in sin, just so much more hope and good cheer there are for every sinner in the world.

How much more power, then, is there in grace than there is in sin? Let me think a moment. Let me ask myself a question or two. Whence comes grace? From God, to be sure. "Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ." Whence comes sin? From the devil, of course. Sin is of the devil, for the devil sinneth from the beginning. Well, then, how much more power is there in grace than there is in sin? It is as plain as ABC that there is just as much more power in grace than there is in sin, as there is more power in God than there is in the devil. It is therefore also perfectly plain that the reign of grace is the reign of God, and that the reign of sin is the reign of Satan. And is it not therefore perfectly plain also that it is just as easy to serve God by the power of God as it is to serve Satan with the power of Satan?

Where the difficulty comes in, in all this, is that so many people try to serve God with the power of Satan. But that can never be done. "Either make the tree good and his fruit good, or else make the tree corrupt and his fruit corrupt." Men cannot gather grapes of thorns nor figs of thistles. The tree must be made good, root and branch. It must be made new. "Ye must be born again." "In Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything nor uncircumcision, but a new creature." Let no one ever attempt to serve God with anything but the present, living power of God that makes him a new creature, with nothing but the much more abundant grace that condemns sin in the flesh and reigns through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord. Then the service of God will indeed be in "newness of life." Then it will be found that His yoke is indeed "easy" and His burden "light." Then His service will be found indeed to be with "joy unspeakable and full of glory."

Did Jesus ever find it difficult to do right? Every one will instantly say, No. But why? He was just as human as we are. He took flesh and blood the same as ours. "The Word was made flesh and dwelt among us." And the kind of flesh that He was made in this world was precisely such as was in this world. "In all things it behooved him to be made like unto his brethren." "In all things!" It does not say, In all things but one. There is no exception. He was made in all things like as we are. He was of Himself as weak as we are, for He said, "I can of mine own self do nothing."

Why, then, being in all things like as we are, did He find it always easy to do right? Because He never trusted to Himself, but His trust was always in God alone. All His dependence was upon the grace of God. He always sought to serve God, only with the power of God. And therefore the Father dwelt in Him, and did the works of righteousness. Therefore it was always easy for Him to do right. But as He is, so are we in this world. He has left us an example, that we should follow His steps. "It is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure," as well as in Him. All power in heaven and in earth is given unto Him, and He desires that you may be strengthened with all might, according to His glorious power. "In him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily," and He strengthens you with might by His Spirit in the inner man, that Christ may dwell in your heart by faith, that you may be "filled with all the fullness of God."

True, Christ partook of the divine nature and so do you if you are a child of promise and not of the flesh, for by the promises ye are partakers of the divine nature. There was nothing given to Him in this world and He had nothing in this world that is not freely given to you or that you may not have.

All this is in order that you may walk in newness of life, that henceforth you may not serve sin, that you may be the servant of righteousness only, that you may be freed from sin, that sin may not have dominion over you, that you may glorify God on the earth, and that you may be like Jesus. And therefore "unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. . . . Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ." And I "beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain."

Wonderful quote, thank you. :-)

Yes it is wonderful! You know Mark, this is what I am talking about in the first pages of my book, Letter to the 1888 Message Study Committee when I talked about the first sermon I preached in the Homelitic class. I used these passages from Jones and it was not well received by the teacher. hehe

But I thought brother Jones had said it so beautifully and so convincingly.

sky

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

There are many that teach that we cannot overcome sin.

We can't, but don't have to. Christ overcame it for us.

Originally Posted By: Twilight

That perfection is impossible.

Not impossible, Christ did it. Every way you look at Him you see perfection.

Christ did not have our sinful nature, he did not have an earthly father. He was the second Adam, a man without a sinful nature. That is the only way He could be perfect. We, having a sinful nature, can only attain perfection through the new birth in Jesus Christ, being born again. It's not something we have to work for, it is a free gift.

Praise God! Jesus is perfection for me. When God looks at me He see's Jesus. When I petition God, He see's Jesus. God is SO good!

Yes! Praise God for the perfection of Jesus! BUTTTTT....

Will the righteousness requirements of the law be fulfilled/reckoned to anyone living after the flesh? NOT!!!

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Wonderful quote, thank you. :-) [/quote']

Yes it is wonderful! You know Mark, this is what I am talking about in the first pages of my book, Letter to the 1888 Message Study Committee when I talked about the first sermon I preached in the Homelitic class. I used these passages from Jones and it was not well received by the teacher. hehe

But I thought brother Jones had said it so beautifully and so convincingly.

sky

Yes, I remember now. :-)

[Haldog]

Yes! Praise God for the perfection of Jesus! BUTTTTT....

Will the righteousness requirements of the law be fulfilled/reckoned to anyone living after the flesh? NOT!!!

Can't believe anyone could say that..."Praise God for the perfection of Jesus! BUTTTTT...." There is no "BUTTTTT" after Jesus. He is all that we need.

He fulfilled the law so that I don't have to. Jesus fulfilled all the "righteousness requirements of the law". If we don't believe it was all fulfilled in Him, then why do we need Him? If we can do it ourselves then there is no need for Jesus.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Yes! Praise God for the perfection of Jesus! BUTTTTT....

Will the righteousness requirements of the law be fulfilled/reckoned to anyone living after the flesh? NOT!!!

Can't believe anyone could say that..."Praise God for the perfection of Jesus! BUTTTTT...." There is no "BUTTTTT" after Jesus. He is all that we need.

He fulfilled the law so that I don't have to. Jesus fulfilled all the "righteousness requirements of the law". If we don't believe it was all fulfilled in Him, then why do we need Him? If we can do it ourselves then there is no need for Jesus.

Then how do you receive Jesus "Righteousness" and what does that "Righteousness" do?

[Haldog]

Originally Posted By: Haldog

Can't believe anyone could say that..."Praise God for the perfection of Jesus! BUTTTTT...." There is no "BUTTTTT" after Jesus. He is all that we need.

He fulfilled the law so that I don't have to. Jesus fulfilled all the "righteousness requirements of the law". If we don't believe it was all fulfilled in Him' date=' then why do we need Him? If we can do it ourselves then there is no need for Jesus. [/quote']

Then how do you receive Jesus "Righteousness" and what does that "Righteousness" do?

Romans 3 explains it very well.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Romans 3 explains it very well.

It does indeed, but your individual interpretation of Romans 3 might be needed if I am to understand your position. :-)

[phkrause]

Redwood I agree with most of your comment, except for the part about having to choose God to make him more powerful that sin. I believe if we choose him or not he is still more powerful than sin. Because when he finally comes and eradicates sin once and for all, it will never rise again. Obviously each individual needs to choose him for him to help them overcome sin, out God is still stronger than sin, one way or the other.

pk

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Yes! Praise God for the perfection of Jesus! BUTTTTT....

Will the righteousness requirements of the law be fulfilled/reckoned to anyone living after the flesh? NOT!!!

Can't believe anyone could say that..."Praise God for the perfection of Jesus! BUTTTTT...." There is no "BUTTTTT" after Jesus. He is all that we need.

Better believe it because it is written, "There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death.

For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh could not do.

By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh,in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, WHO WALK NOT ACCORDING TO THE FLESH BUT ACCORDING TO THE SPIRIT." ROM 8:1-4 ESV.

Quote:

He fulfilled the law so that I don't have to. Jesus fulfilled all the "righteousness requirements of the law". If we don't believe it was all fulfilled in Him, then why do we need Him? If we can do it ourselves then there is no need for Jesus.

Let me see if I understand you correctly. God condemns unbelievers for stealing, fornicating, murdering, etc. but it's ok for believers?

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Haldog

Can't believe anyone could say that..."Praise God for the perfection of Jesus! BUTTTTT...." There is no "BUTTTTT" after Jesus. He is all that we need.

Better believe it because it is written' date=' "There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death.

For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh could not do.

By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh,in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, WHO WALK NOT ACCORDING TO THE FLESH BUT ACCORDING TO THE SPIRIT." ROM 8:1-4 ESV.

Quote:

He fulfilled the law so that I don't have to. Jesus fulfilled all the "righteousness requirements of the law". If we don't believe it was all fulfilled in Him, then why do we need Him? If we can do it ourselves then there is no need for Jesus. [/quote']

Let me see if I understand you correctly. God condemns unbelievers for stealing, fornicating, murdering, etc. but it's ok for believers?

Let me see if I understand you correctly. God condemns unbelievers for stealing, fornicating, murdering, etc. but it's ok for believers?

I need to remember that one...

It is interesting how the enemy can trick a mind so that it thinks the purpose of the Gospel is to give them a lisence to sin...

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Romans 3 explains it very well.

What is there in Rom 3 that leads you to believe you can appropriate the righteousness of Christ while living according to the dictates of the flesh?

[Robert]

So let us consider this with 2 points:

1. God is stronger than the devil. True/False