A Discussion of the Cause of the Flood

[Guest]

wayfinder wins on points for Bible understanding on this one.

[Guest]

The book of life contains the good deeds of the saints; and the book of death contains the evil deeds of the wicked. These books are compared with the statute book, the Bible, and according to that men are judged. The saints, in unison with Jesus, pass their judgment upon the wicked dead. "Behold ye," said the angel, "the saints, in unison with Jesus, sit in judgment, and mete out to the wicked according to the deeds done in the body, and that which they must receive at the execution of the judgment is set off against their names." This, I saw, was the work of the saints with Jesus through the one thousand years in the Holy City before it descends to the earth. {EW 52}

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

I'm guessing this is your argument.

1.God ordered Saul to kill the Amelakites.

2.If what I wrote above were true, that violently killing one's enemies is overcoming them by force, then God here would be overcoming by force.

3.But the EGW statement says God does not overcome by force.

4.Therefore my comment, that violently killing one's enemies is overcoming them by force is incorrect.

Am I correct that this is your argument?

But isn't this an interesting position pnatt?

God ordered Saul to kill the Amelakites.

That is established.

Yet you seem to be presenting a statement from Ellen White to say this is impossible.

Do you not see the confusion in that?

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

These men were never under God's protection, they were Ahab's solders. The fire is called the fire of God, if you want to say that this fire came from Satan you would have to say Satan is God.

2 Kings 1:12 Elijah replied to them, "If I am a man of God, let fire come down from heaven and consume you and your fifty." Then the fire of God came down from heaven and consumed him and his fifty.

The commander of the last group of fifty showed respect for and acknoledged the true God.

15 The angel of the LORD said to Elijah, "Go down with him; do not be afraid of him." So he arose and went down with him to the king.

The Angel of the Lord is none other than Michael/Son of God.

A very good point.

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

wayfinder wins on points for Bible understanding on this one.

I agree.

Merely by not moving from the plain scripture into conjecture.

[skyblue888]

looks who is talking!!!!

[Twilight]

looks who is talking!!!!

When ones mind is made up that they have all spiritual truth.

That they are the teacher.

They they have a truth the world must know.

Then they cannot receive anything to the contrary.

Because this type of mind is fed from a seed of pride.

That seed of pride means that evil angels can gain control of it at anytime.

The manifestation that evil angels have gained control is seen in an inability to consider anothers position.

It is also shown in a dogmatic response to opposing views.

It is also seen in a condemnation.

When pride takes hold because a believer has been given some spiritual truth, they are in the most desperate and dangerous position.

It does not matter how many people try to warn them.

It does not matter how many times their fruits are pointed out to them.

THEY cannot be wrong.

Spiritual pride is the deepest darkest trap for the Christian.

If you are not trapped, you will be able to consider these words Sky.

If you are trapped, you will merely reject them by concentrating on others perceived faults.

You will also have thoughts of spiritual martyrdom.

You will also be convinced you are a lone voice calling out a spiritual truth.

I pray that the bands that control your mind be released from you. That you can turn from spiritual pride and humble yourself as knowing nothing before the Lord.

I pray this for all of us, so that we can be seperated from every form of spiritual pride and be enabled to hear other than our own opinions.

God bless you my friend.

Mark

[pnattmbtc]

It is also Ellen White's view. That's where John317 got it. And the Bible.

[pnattmbtc]

No I don't hold to the understanding that the wicked burn commensurate to their sin. The fire that comes from God consumes in an instant everything it comes in contact with.

1 Kings 18:33 Then he arranged the wood and cut the ox in pieces and laid {it} on the wood. 34 And he said, "Fill four pitchers with water and pour {it} on the burnt offering and on the wood." And he said, "Do it a second time," and they did it a second time. And he said, "Do it a third time," and they did it a third time. 35 The water flowed around the altar and he also filled the trench with water. 36 At the time of the offering of the {evening} sacrifice, Elijah the prophet came near and said, " O LORD, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Israel, today let it be known that You are God in Israel and that I am Your servant and I have done all these things at Your word. 37 "Answer me, O LORD, answer me, that this people may know that You, O LORD, are God, and {that} You have turned their heart back again." 38 Then the fire of the LORD fell and consumed the burnt offering and the wood and the stones and the dust, and licked up the water that was in the trench.

2 Kings 1:9-18

9 Then {the king} sent to him a captain of fifty with his fifty. And he went up to him, and behold, he was sitting on the top of the hill. And he said to him, "O man of God, the king says, 'Come down.' " 10 Elijah replied to the captain of fifty, "If I am a man of God, let fire come down from heaven and consume you and your fifty." Then fire came down from heaven and consumed him and his fifty. 11 So he again sent to him another captain of fifty with his fifty. And he said to him, "O man of God, thus says the king, 'Come down quickly.' " 12 Elijah replied to them, "If I am a man of God, let fire come down from heaven and consume you and your fifty." Then the fire of God came down from heaven and consumed him and his fifty. 13 So he again sent the captain of a third fifty with his fifty. When the third captain of fifty went up, he came and bowed down on his knees before Elijah, and begged him and said to him, "O man of God, please let my life and the lives of these fifty servants of yours be precious in your sight. 14 "Behold fire came down from heaven and consumed the first two captains of fifty with their fifties; but now let my life be precious in your sight." 15 The angel of the LORD said to Elijah, "Go down with him; do not be afraid of him." So he arose and went down with him to the king.

This is an example of fire used justly.

Ok, thanks for the clarification. So if the fire that comes from heaven instantly consumes everything it contacts with, there would be either no suffering for those who are consumed, or virtually none. This is certainly a more humane idea than the idea the God burns people alive for hours or days.

[skyblue888]

She refers to burning people alive for ever as "unceasing tortures." I really doubt that the only thing she found objectionable about the eternal tortures idea is that it is eternal. It's also "tortures." She's not arguing that the tortures are OK as long as their not eternal.

She talks about the feelings of common humanity, and the cruelty of the savage. What's this in relation to? It's to the "eternal tortures." If you make the "tortures" temporal, instead of eternal, they are no less cruel. The cruelty of the "tortures" would be temporary instead of eternal, but would still be there. She argued that cruelty is Satanic.

So I don't think asserting that this is Ellen White's view is accurate.

_______________________________________________________________________-

Excellent points again pnatt.

The Lord winks at our ignorance but when He sends light and we question it and criticize it we are on dangerous ground. He sent light in 1888 regarding the merits of His Son, whose merits it was our privilege to claim as our only hope, but there were those who opposed this heaven-sent light and stood between the light and the people. Here is what the Holy Spirit said to them, "But that light which is to fill the whole earth with its glory has been despised by some who claim to believe the present truth. Be careful how you treat it. Take off the shoes from off your feet; for you are on holy ground. Beware lest you indulge the attributes of Satan and pour contempt upon the manifestation of the Holy Spirit. I know not but some have even now gone too far to return and to repent." T.M.89,90.

Just as in 1888 there were those who disregarded the light regarding the merits of Christ as to the necessity of appropriating them by faith in order to receive the blessings of pardon and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, so today we are in danger of resisting the true teaching of the Bible concerning the character of God, the nature of His government, and the principles of His dealing with sin.

All it takes to be on dangerous ground is for us to disregard one simple ray of light from Heaven regarding this vital topic. Notice again that it does not say, "When we disregard a whole amount of light," but "When we disregard one ray of light there is a partial benumbing of the spiritual perceptions and the second revealing of light is less clearly discerned. The darkness increases until it is night in the sould.." D.A.322.

Ray of light from Heaven: "God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejecters of His mercy to themselves to reap that which they have sown."

Ray of light from Heaven: "I was shown that the judgments of God would not come directly out from the Lord upon the wicked but in this way--they place themselves beyond His protection."

Ray of light from Heaven: "God destroys no man."

Ray of light from Heaven: "Satan is the destroyer."

"It is dangerous to utter a word of doubt, dangerous to question and criticize divine light." D.A.323.

sky

[pnattmbtc]

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

Then God overcame by force.

When He ordered Saul to kill the Amelakites Pnatt...

Mark [/quote']

I'm guessing this is your argument.

1.God ordered Saul to kill the Amelakites.

2.If what I wrote above were true, that violently killing one's enemies is overcoming them by force, then God here would be overcoming by force.

3.But the EGW statement says God does not overcome by force.

4.Therefore my comment, that violently killing one's enemies is overcoming them by force is incorrect.

Am I correct that this is your argument?

Quote:

But isn't this an interesting position pnatt?

God ordered Saul to kill the Amelakites.

That is established.

Yet you seem to be presenting a statement from Ellen White to say this is impossible.

Do you not see the confusion in that?

Mark :-)

I would say there's certainly an issue that needs to be cleared up. And this has been my point all along, that certain interpretations are contradictory to the principles brought out by the EGW statements.

Also, I think the principles she brought out are precisely those taught by Christ. That is, Christ taught that exercise of force is contrary to the principles of God's government, and that His principles are not of this order. I'm just making this point to make clear that we needn't be dependent upon Ellen White to establish the principles that she articulated.

One other point that I would make is that God's doing something Himself, and "ordering" someone else to do the thing are really two separate issues. I understand the point that if one instructs an agent to perform an action that there is a moral responsibility attached, but there are different principles involved in these cases, such as God's giving counsel taking into account the hardness of people's heart, and having to choose between doing things the way the ignorant, stubborn people wanted, or having to cut off relations with them altogether. So God gave instructions to do things which were not His will at all. There are many examples of this, such as divorce, polygamy, and having a king. There's no reason why the use of violence wouldn't fit into this as well.

I think a very easy thing to do is to look at Christ's life and teachings and see that He was not a violent person. If violence were a part of His character, He would have instructed His disciples to act violently. But He taught the reverse. He said His kingdom was not of this world. If it were, His servants would fight. This made clear that violence is not a part of His kingdom.

[skyblue888]

Amen!!!! Amen!!! Amen!!!

Very well said pnatt!

Praise the Lord!!!!!

I especially appreciate your last parg.

Wow! The Lord is good! These words take on a totally new meaning!

Indeed this is the light of His glory which is to illuminate the whole earth!

[Guest]

It was not time for violence, is all one can truthfully say about Jesus' ministry. But if you study out the whole topic instead of just a little piece of it, you can rest assured that violence is coming. And it will come from God. This is very plainly stated in the Bible and the SOP.

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

looks who is talking!!!!

When ones mind is made up that they have all spiritual truth.

That they are the teacher.

They they have a truth the world must know.

Then they cannot receive anything to the contrary.

Because this type of mind is fed from a seed of pride.

That seed of pride means that evil angels can gain control of it at anytime.

The manifestation that evil angels have gained control is seen in an inability to consider anothers position.

It is also shown in a dogmatic response to opposing views.

It is also seen in a condemnation.

When pride takes hold because a believer has been given some spiritual truth, they are in the most desperate and dangerous position.

It does not matter how many people try to warn them.

It does not matter how many times their fruits are pointed out to them.

THEY cannot be wrong.

Spiritual pride is the deepest darkest trap for the Christian.

If you are not trapped, you will be able to consider these words Sky.

If you are trapped, you will merely reject them by concentrating on others perceived faults.

You will also have thoughts of spiritual martyrdom.

You will also be convinced you are a lone voice calling out a spiritual truth.

I pray that the bands that control your mind be released from you. That you can turn from spiritual pride and humble yourself as knowing nothing before the Lord.

I pray this for all of us, so that we can be seperated from every form of spiritual pride and be enabled to hear other than our own opinions.

God bless you my friend.

Mark

Truer words were never spoken, and yet you held your composure and parted with a loving prayer for the one who is misrepresenting the plain truth of God.

[pnattmbtc]

It was not time for violence, is all one can truthfully say about Jesus' ministry. But if you study out the whole topic instead of just a little piece of it, you can rest assured that violence is coming. And it will come from God. This is very plainly stated in the Bible and the SOP.

Why would it have been any less a time for violence during Christ's ministry than before it? If God's method to solving problems were violence, He'd surely have used it when Christ was here. After all, that's what everyone expected Him to do.

There's absolutely nothing in Christ's ministry, either His life or teaching, which in any way even hints that Christ's opposition to violence was limited to His ministry.

He said, "My Kingdom is not of this world." It's the *kingdom* that's non-violent. This isn't a time related issue.

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

It was not time for violence, is all one can truthfully say about Jesus' ministry. But if you study out the whole topic instead of just a little piece of it, you can rest assured that violence is coming. And it will come from God. This is very plainly stated in the Bible and the SOP.

Why would it have been any less a time for violence during Christ's ministry than before it? If God's method to solving problems were violence, He'd surely have used it when Christ was here. After all, that's what everyone expected Him to do.

There's absolutely nothing in Christ's ministry, either His life or teaching, which in any way even hints that Christ's opposition to violence was limited to His ministry.

He said, "My Kingdom is not of this world." It's the *kingdom* that's non-violent. This isn't a time related issue.

Oh but it is. You should read more of your Bible, and not be so quick to dismiss the quotes from the same prophet you claim to have faith in.

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

It was not time for violence, is all one can truthfully say about Jesus' ministry. But if you study out the whole topic instead of just a little piece of it, you can rest assured that violence is coming. And it will come from God. This is very plainly stated in the Bible and the SOP.

___________________________________________________________________

Why would it have been any less a time for violence during Christ's ministry than before it? If God's method to solving problems were violence, He'd surely have used it when Christ was here. After all, that's what everyone expected Him to do.

There's absolutely nothing in Christ's ministry, either His life or teaching, which in any way even hints that Christ's opposition to violence was limited to His ministry.

He said, "My Kingdom is not of this world." It's the *kingdom* that's non-violent. This isn't a time related issue.

pnatt

_________________________________________

Amen pnatt!

"Arise, shine, for your light has come! and the glory of the Lord is risen upon you. For behold the darkness covers the world and gross darkness the people. But the Lord will arise upon you, and His glory shall be seen upon you." Isaiah 60:1-2.

And here is an inspired commentary upon these very verses:

""Behold," says the Scripture, 'the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people; but the Lord shall arise upon thee, and His glory shall be seen upon thee.'" Isa. 60:2. It is the darkness of misapprehension of God that is enshrouding the world. Men are losing their knowledge of His character. It has been misunderstood and misinterpreted. At this time a message from God is to be proclaimed, a message illuminating in its influence and saving in its power. His character is to be made known. Into the darkness of the world is to be shed the light of His glory, the light of His goodness, mercy, and truth." C.O.L.415.

sky

[pnattmbtc]

It was not time for violence, is all one can truthfully say about Jesus' ministry. But if you study out the whole topic instead of just a little piece of it, you can rest assured that violence is coming. And it will come from God. This is very plainly stated in the Bible and the SOP.

[skyblue888]

Amen!!!

[Guest]

How can you just overlook all the other evidence?

[skyblue888]

Yes how could you possibly ignore all the evidence you have been shown?

[Guest]

You are starting to sound like one who has not matured.

[Guest]

Said the angel, "It is the wrath of God and the Lamb that causes the destruction or death of the wicked. {EW 52}

Will you argue with the words of the angel?

[pnattmbtc]

Richard, it's evident that there appear to be texts which say one thing and others which appear to say another. An explanation has been suggested to resolve this apparent contradiction, which is that God, in inspiration, often presents Himself as doing that which He permits. This is not ignoring any evidence, but is using Scripture to understand Scripture. Many examples of this have been cited, including

a.David's numbering Israel.

b.God's killing of Saul.

c.The sending of fiery serpents upon the Israelites

d.The destruction of Jerusalem

e.God's bringing trouble from the house of David

to name a few.

So there's an explanation.

Please note that we're dealing with two types of statements. One type of statements, they types I've been citing, are principles. Principles apply to any situation, which is why they're so powerful. Once we understand that "the Lord's principles are not of this order" but can only be found "under Satan's government," we know there must be some interpretation of the events which match the principles.

Rather than simply citing events, principles should be cited. The interpretation of the events has to match the principles.

Anyway, an explanation has been offered for the apparent contradiction. What is your explanation please?

[skyblue888]

Richard, you keep quoting certain statements and we keep quoting certain statements that explain the statements you have quoted. The statements we are quoting provide us with the principles of interpretation to be adopted when reading the statements you have quoted.

Does that help?

sky