A Discussion of the Cause of the Flood

[Twilight]

Yesterday I took the time to look closely at all of Jesus' parables having to do with what finally happens to the wicked.

Every single parable of Jesus that touches on the topic teaches that God destroys the wicked. His parables never say that the wicked kill each other or that they commit suicide. They are consistently "cast out," "thrown into the fire of gehenna," "burned up," "thrown into the furnace of fire," "thrown into outer darkness," "cut in pieces," "tortured," "rejected," "go away into eternal punishment," "condemned," etc.

I would ask everyone to study closely all the parables of Christ on this point.

1) Matt. 8: 12-- "cast out into outer darkness." (Compare Matt. 13: 42, 50)

Obviously God does the "casting."

2) Matt. 13: 30, 40. The landowner orders his servants to gather the tares and "burn them up" at the time of the harvest.

3) Matt. 13: 42-- tares are thrown into the furnace of fire where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

4) Matt. 13: 47, 50-- the bad are "thrown away"-- "thrown into the furnace of fire."

5) Matt. 18: 8, 9-- People will be "cast into the eternal fire."

6) Matt. 18: 34, 35-- Jesus says His Father will hand us over to "torturers" if we do not forgive others from our hearts.

7) Matt. 21: 40, 41-- the landowner bring the vine-growers to a "wretched end." In Mark 12: 29, the owner will "destroy the vine-growers." See also Luke 20: 16.

8) Matt. 22: 13-- The king tells his servants to bind the man without wedding garment and "throw him" into "outer darkness." (Compare Matt. 13: 50)

9) Matt. 24: 37, 38, 39-- Jesus teaches that people will die at Christ's return just as they did at the Deluge. In the Deluge, God destroyed them. The wicked made themselves unfit to live. In that sense, they destroyed themselves, but it was God who caused the Deluge which brought about their deaths.

10) Matt. 24: 51-- The "Master" will "cut the slave in pieces." (cf. Luke 12: 46). The slave does not cut himself nor do the slaves cut each other.

11) Matt. 25: 11-- The foolish virgins beg to be let inside the wedding feast (heaven) but they are rejected by the bridegroom. God will say that He doesn't know them. (Cf. Luke 13: 25, 27)

12) Matt. 25: 30-- The "Master" orders the "worthless slave" to be "thrown into the outer darkness"-- into oblivion. (cf. 13: 50). There will be "fire."

13) Matt. 25: 31-41. When Jesus comes in His glory, people will be judged, or separated, according to how they've treated Jesus in the person of other people. Those who have neglected to be kind and loving toward others will be sent "into the eternal fire" which God has prepared for the devil and his angels.

14) Matt. 25: 46-- the lost "go away into eternal punishment."

15) Luke 19: 27-- A nobleman (Christ) has his "enemies" "slain" in His sight. His "enemies" are those who did not want Him to reign over them.

NOTE: Can anyone find a parable in which the wicked are destroyed by Satan or by other wicked people or where they commit suicide or voluntarily jump into the lake of fire?

Notice that these parables are in total harmony with the teaching found elsewhere in Scripture, including the epistles of Paul, as well as the writings of Ellen White.

Thank you for sharing that with us John317.

I really appreciated the consistency of the scripture on this point.

It is Gods direct action that is being referred to constantly in all of these.

The idea that men destroy each other and satan, I do not find in the scripture however.

The only way I could come to that conclusion is use a small selection of Ellen Whites writings in a very narrow manner to "re-interpret" the plain meaning of scripture.

So this detailed exposition on the subject should be food for thought for all of us.

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

"They" are force and violence, right? So you're wanting to argue that force and violence are a part of God's character?

What do you do with the statement from the SOP saying that force is not principle of God's government? How can force be a part of God's character if it's not principle of His government?

God does not use force to draw people to Him.

God uses force to deal with sin.

We have to be careful not to say that if God uses force in any manner, He is evil.

That would stem from the idea that God exercising His authority is evil.

Mark

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Does not the mere fact you have to change the plain meaning of Gods Word give you any cause for concern?

Mark, I've already asked you if you're going to comment on something I've said, to please quote what it is you're commenting on. Otherwise it makes a conversation very difficult.

Since the context of this quote is that force and violence are a part of God's character, I'll assume you have this in mind, and ask what Scripture teaches this idea? It seems to me that Jesus Christ taught about as clearly as possible that this is false. He revealed the Father. He said is someone strikes you on the cheek, to do what? Act violently? Where did Jesus Christ ever advocate that we should act violently?

If using force is a part of God's character, and violence as well, then if we are to be like God in character it follows that we should use force and be violent as well. Isn't this obviously wrong on the face of it?

God has asked His followers to use force on His behalf.

And His angels.

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

The Desire of Ages quote says rebellion was not to be overcome by force. Obviously violently killing your enemy is overcoming him by force.

It is not force that overcomes evil, but good.

The prevailing powers of God's government are truth and love, not force and violence.

God act of destroying sin, is good.

A destructive act can be a good thing, if it stops pain and hurt.

Mark

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: WayneV

To All:

Question on the topic of this thread (not necessarily the topic of the last several pages). If God did not send the rains that caused the flood, why would He set His Bow in the heavens as a reminder of His promise to never do it again?

Always nice to see you, Wayne! I hope that all is well

Good question about the rainbow

God knew there would never be a flood again because the conditions that existed to cause a flood no longer existed.

sky

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

The Desire of Ages quote says rebellion was not to be overcome by force. Obviously violently killing your enemy is overcoming him by force.

It is not force that overcomes evil, but good.

The prevailing powers of God's government are truth and love, not force and violence.

God act of destroying sin, is good.

A destructive act can be a good thing, if it stops pain and hurt.

Mark

"Evil shall slay the wicked." Ps.34:21.

Mark, let us be careful not to put our own wisdom--which is foolishness to God--above the wisdom of God.

Yes God destroys sin, but how? by not exercising His power to prevent events from taking their natural course. Then a train of circumstances will arise that will punish sin with sin. It is how sin destroys itself.

God bears the sins of the whole world and that is the reason why we are still alive. But the day is coming when He will no longer bear sins and then we will see what happens when sin is allowed to take its natural course.

sky

[Lutz13]

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

The Desire of Ages quote says rebellion was not to be overcome by force. Obviously violently killing your enemy is overcoming him by force.

It is not force that overcomes evil, but good.

The prevailing powers of God's government are truth and love, not force and violence.

God act of destroying sin, is good.

A destructive act can be a good thing, if it stops pain and hurt.

Mark

Doesn't a destructive act cause more pain and hurt? If I remember correctly. Jesus said something about not repaying evil with evil? Jesus was a revelation of who God is. So why would He go back on that and say "It is now ok to evil for evil.

Not sure about you, but I am sure millions of martyrs will agree with me. Burning someone alive is a pretty sick and twisted thing to do.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

God act of destroying sin, is good.

A destructive act can be a good thing, if it stops pain and hurt.

Mark [/quote']

"Evil shall slay the wicked." Ps.34:21.

Mark, let us be careful not to put our own wisdom--which is foolishness to God--above the wisdom of God.

Yes God destroys sin, but how? by not exercising His power to prevent events from taking their natural course. Then a train of circumstances will arise that will punish sin with sin. It is how sin destroys itself.

God bears the sins of the whole world and that is the reason why we are still alive. But the day is coming when He will no longer bear sins and then we will see what happens when sin is allowed to take its natural course.

sky

Indeed, let us not put our own wisdom above the wisdom of God Sky.

Which is why we should let the bible interpret itself and be led by the Spirit.

Which is much different to allowing mans opinion of SOP interpret the bible and being led by anothers opinion.

Let us not be so foolish as to think that "our wisdom" is "Gods wisdom" and they are one and the same thing, but let us be humble enough to consider ourselves capable of being decieved...

Mark

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

Indeed, let us not put our own wisdom above the wisdom of God Sky.

Which is why we should let the bible interpret itself and be led by the Spirit.

Which is much different to allowing mans opinion of SOP interpret the bible and being led by anothers opinion.

Let us not be so foolish as to think that "our wisdom" is "Gods wisdom" and they are one and the same thing, but let us be humble enough to consider ourselves capable of being decieved...

Mark

So then, if someone teaches that "God bears the sins of the whole world," that someone is teaching the opinions of men?

If someone teaches that the time is coming when Christ shall no longer bear sin (when probation shall close) and that then we will see what happens when sin is allowed to take its natural course, that someone is teaching the opinions of men?

If someone quotes the Testimonies saying that "God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression" that someone is quoting the opinions of a woman?

If someone quotes the Testimonies saying, "I was shown that the judgments of God would not come directly out from the Lord upon them but in this way--they place themselves beyond His protection," that someone is quoting the mere opinion of a woman?

If someone quotes the Bible saying, "Evil shall slay the wicked," that someone is quoting the wisdom of man?

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

God act of destroying sin, is good.

A destructive act can be a good thing, if it stops pain and hurt.

Mark [/quote']

Doesn't a destructive act cause more pain and hurt? If I remember correctly. Jesus said something about not repaying evil with evil? Jesus was a revelation of who God is. So why would He go back on that and say "It is now ok to evil for evil.

Not sure about you, but I am sure millions of martyrs will agree with me. Burning someone alive is a pretty sick and twisted thing to do.

Would you consider it ok for a doctor to destroy a virus Lutz?

Mark

[skyblue888]

The Bible is clear, God will destroy the virus of sin but in His way, not man's way. Not by force but by the revelation of His character. As the heavenly illumination is resisted, it is said that the people are destroyed by the breath of His mouth and the brightness of His coming.

"We are not to regard God as waiting to punish the sinner for his sin. The sinner brings the punishment upon himself. His own actions start a train of circumstances that bring the sure result. Every act of transgression reacts upon the sinner, works in him a change of character, and makes it more easy for him to transgress again. By choosing to sin, men separate themselves from God, cut themselves off from the channel of blessing, and the sure result is ruin and death." 1 S.M.235.

sky

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

So then, if someone teaches that "God bears the sins of the whole world," that someone is teaching the opinions of men?

If someone teaches that the time is coming when Christ shall no longer bear sin (when probation shall close) and that then we will see what happens when sin is allowed to take its natural course, that someone is teaching the opinions of men?

If someone quotes the Testimonies saying that "God does ot stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression" that someone is quoting the opinions of a woman?

If someone quotes the Testimonies saying, "I was shown that the judgments of God would not come directly out from the Lord upon them but in this way--they place themselves beyond His protection," that someone is quoting the mere opinion of a woman?

If someone quotes the Bible saying, "Evil shall slay the wicked," that someone is quoting the wisdom of man?

If that person takes all those quotes and uses them out of context, then they are not to be received as one having light.

Mark

[skyblue888]

Say what you wish Mark but remember that we will have to answer for every idle word.

sky

[Guest]

What about all the misguided words.

[Guest]

Rom 12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, says the Lord.

[Twilight]

Say what you wish Mark but remember that we will have to answer for every idle word.

sky

Indeed.

But each of us have to take care of our own, before we start worrying about our Brothers words.

And we also have to be careful when judging what others are saying as "idle words".

Mar :-)

[Guest]

Your words are not Idle Mark. You have been willing from the start, to look at all the quotes and texts, and weigh ALL the evidence. Which the other side refuses to do. They gloss right over the most strongly worded quotes and texts as if they were not even there. They don't even look at them, because in their mind they have explained them away, using another set of quotes.

That is not the way to reach a correct understanding.

[Guest]

And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 2Th 1:7-9

[Twilight]

Your words are not Idle Mark. You have been willing from the start, to look at all the quotes and texts, and weigh ALL the evidence. Which the other side refuses to do. They gloss right over the most strongly worded quotes and texts as if they were not even there. They don't even look at them, because in their mind they have explained them away, using another set of quotes.

That is not the way to reach a correct understanding.

I have noticed this pattern Richard:

Point: God does not destroy (here is a proof text).

Objection: This text says He does.

Response: You are ignoring light (here is a proof text).

Objection: But what about this text?

Point: God does not destroy (here is a proof text).

Objection: But you have not considered this text, just ignored it.

Response: You are ignoring light (here is a proof text).

These are the two positions represented over and over.

1. God does not destroy (here is a proof text).

2. You are rejecting light (here is a proof text).

There is not an open discussion of the issues or principles but a stating of a position, then a condemnation (by some), when that position is challenged.

Truth can be weighed and examined.

Only error needs a fanatical blindness to defend it...

Mark :-(

[Guest]

Or this: No that text dosn't mean that anymore, you have to look at it in the light of this quote over here. Everything is to be interpreted by that now.

[Twilight]

Or this: No that text dosn't mean that anymore, you have to look at it in the light of this quote over here. Everything is to be interpreted by that now.

Which we know is the fastest route to spiritualistic error.

Spiritualising plain truths away, by giving undue weight to one text or statement.

I appeal to anyone who is caught up in this belief that God does not destroy, watch this presentation on the subject of spiritualism creeping into the church:

http://www.maranathamedia.com/Video/InroadsOfSpiritualism.wmv

Richard pointed me to this and it is very interesting.

It clearly shows that the principles being applied to this subject, are the principles of spiritualism.

Mark :-)

[pnattmbtc]

Consider the principle that force is not a principle of God's government, that His principles are not of this order, and that rebellion is not overcome by force. How can it be argued that these statements don't apply to the act of destroying rebellion by force?

[pnattmbtc]

Mark has argued that force and violence are a part of God's character. I'm curious if everyone who takes the position that God will burn people alive who disobey Him agree with this idea, that force and violence are a part of God's character.

[Guest]

It is very enlightening. It is the fourth sermon on the list, and it's called: "The Inroads of Spiritualisn" by Adrian Ebens

http://www.maranathamedia.com/Video/InroadsOfSpiritualism.wmv

[skyblue888]

"The only remedy is belief in the truth, acceptance of the light." T.M.91.