A Discussion of the Cause of the Flood

[Guest]

Tis true wayfinder.

[skyblue888]

The disciples of Christ had read these passages of Scriptures just like us today and their understanding had been obcsured by tradition and misterpretation and the result was that they had seen God in a false light. So when they asked Jesus if they could call fire from heaven to fall upon a village of the Samaritans for refusing to lodge them for the night, Jesus rebuked them and told them they did not know by what spirit they were actuacted.

Would not Jesus have to rebuke us today in the same manner for seeing Him as a God that answereth by fire?

sky

[Guest]

No we would not be rebuked for believing the book of Revelation. And that's not what they were guilty of. They thought Jesus had come to set up his kingdom, but it wasn't time for that yet. He didn't make that trip to burn people up. But the Bible and EGW plainly state that on the next trip he most certainly will.

[Guest]

And no the disciples had not read the book of Revelation.

[wayfinder]

In fact, one of the disciples wrote the book of Revelation!

[Guest]

That's a fact.

[pnattmbtc]

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

I agree with most of this. The part I would disagree with is that God will burn alive those who don't do what He says. The idea that God would say, "Please hear what I have to say. I love you and have given My Son to die for you. Please accept Him as your personal Savior. If you don't, I will set you on fire to suffer beyond your wildest imaginations" is not in harmony with either His character or the principles of His government, of which forcing the will is not one. Telling someone to do what you tell them, or else you will burn them alive, is compelling power. It was compelling power when Nicodemus did it, and when it was done in the Middle Ages. The fact that it is God doing it instead of someone else does not change the character of "Do what I tell you, or I will burn you alive."

[/quote']

God will do whatever it takes to get the attention of people, and sometimes that means the use of dire warnings and threats. Compare the following verses with Rev. 14: 9-11.

Isaiah 65: 11-15:

11 “ But you are those who forsake the LORD,

Who forget My holy mountain,

Who prepare a table for Gad,[a]

And who furnish a drink offering for Meni.

12 Therefore I will number you for the sword,

And you shall all bow down to the slaughter;

Because, when I called, you did not answer;

When I spoke, you did not hear,

But did evil before My eyes,

And chose that in which I do not delight.”

13 Therefore thus says the Lord GOD:

“ Behold, My servants shall eat,

But you shall be hungry;

Behold, My servants shall drink,

But you shall be thirsty;

Behold, My servants shall rejoice,

But you shall be ashamed;

14 Behold, My servants shall sing for joy of heart,

But you shall cry for sorrow of heart,

And wail for grief of spirit.

15 You shall leave your name as a curse to My chosen;

For the Lord GOD will slay you,

And call His servants by another name;

Sure, I agree with the idea that God will do what's needed to get someone's attention, but the problem I brought out is not getting one's attention, but forcing the will. Threatening to burn someone if they don't what you tell them to do is coercion. It's contrary to the principles of God.

[pnattmbtc]

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

The Bible never says that people will be burned alive in order to make them suffer for the sins they have committed.

It absolutely does.

Rev 20:9 And they went up over the breadth of the earth, and encircled the camp of the saints, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

These people encircling the the beloved city are not dead.

That verse does not say that people are burned alive in order to make them suffer to pay for their sins. You're reading this idea into that verse.

Many Adventists have not understood that verse this way, including A. T. Jones and E. J. Waggoner, to name two.

[Guest]

Is it really? Have you read the Old Testament?

[pnattmbtc]

Here is another one Richard.

Revelation 11:5

And if anyone wants to harm them, fire flows out of their mouth and devours their enemies; so if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this way.

"he must be killed in this way" this would mean that it is the fire that kills them. They would have to be alive to be killed.

It would mean they must be killed by fire which flows out of the mouth.

[pnattmbtc]

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

... John says that he couldn't do this for his loved ones [i.e., sentence his loved ones to death,edited by John], and offered as the reason why that he didn't hate sin like God does.

I never said that God would have anyone on this earth burn up other people.

Therefore, it is inaccurate to say what you've said here.

What you are referring to occurs during the 1000 years. Study EW 52, 53. Ellen White wrote that Jesus Christ makes the decision, in unison with the saints, as to the "portion which the wicked must suffer," and Jesus announces the sentence of eternal death.

Whether an individual today would want to [or "could"] sentence a loved one to death is not even relevant to the issue of the destruction of the wicked.

The question is theoretical, and it doesn't matter how a person feels about it. The fact is that God has revealed to us through the Bible and the Spirit of Prophecy that the saints will indeed assist Christ in the examination of the books of record and in "meting out to the wicked the portion they must suffer."

God is not asking or requiring humans to do that now. Now is the time to try to help save people for God's kingdom, not sentence them.

In the Investigative Judgment, however, we know that names of people are being blotted out of the Book of Life, meaning that they will come up in the second resurrection and will be judged and destroyed. The Pre-advent Judgment is going on right now in the heavenly sanctuary, and a God of love and of truth is in the process of blotting out sins and blotting out names. That is what the Bible teaches and it's what the SDA church teaches.

[pnattmbtc]

Richard, I asked you this:

Quote:

Also, I'm curious, do you agree with John's statements in regards to the sentencing of loved ones? Specifically, John says that he couldn't do this for his loved ones (i.e., set their sentence for how long they should be burned), and offered as the reason why that he didn't hate sin like God does. Do these responses describe your thoughts on this as well?

I'd appreciate knowing your thoughts on this. Also, from anyone who believes God will burn people alive to make them suffer. Do you agree with John that you couldn't sentence your loved ones to be burned, the reason being that you don't hate sin enough, like God does?

[Guest]

I'll know more about that when the time comes, but like John, I do trust God. When you find out that God does what he says, are you still going to want to go to heaven?

[skyblue888]

come on Richard, you know exactly what I meant"

"Coming to Christ, they reported to Him the words of the people, telling Him that they had even refused to give Him a night's lodging. They thought that a grievous wrong had been done Him, and seeing Mount Carmel in the distance, where Elijah had slain the false prophets, they said, "Wilt Thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?" They were surprised to see that Jesus was pained by their words, and still more surprised as His rebuke fell upon their ears, "Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them." And He went to another village.

It is no part of Christ's mission to compel men to receive Him. It is Satan, and men actuated by his spirit, that seek to compel the conscience. Under a pretense of zeal for righteousness, men who are confederate with evil angels bring suffering upon their fellow men, in order to convert them to their ideas of religion; but Christ is ever showing mercy, ever seeking to win by the revealing of His love. He can admit no rival in the soul, nor accept of partial service; but He desires only voluntary service, the willing surrender of the heart under the constraint of love. There can be no more conclusive evidence that we possess the spirit of Satan than the disposition to hurt and destroy those who do not appreciate our work, or who act contrary to our ideas." D.A.487,488.

Whether before or after the 1000 years our good and gracious Lord never reveals Himself as a God that answereth by fire. You should know that the language of the Bible is consistent and that it is not left to any private interpretation.

Never does fire come direclty from God out of heaven.

"I was shown that God's judgments would not come directly out from the Lord upon them but in this way--they place themselves beyond His protection." E.G. White, MR 14, 3.1.

This is the everlasting truth.

sky

[Guest]

You have taken that quote out of context, and you know it. I have shown this before.

[wayfinder]

Revelation 16:8

The fourth angel poured out his bowl upon the sun, and it was given to it to scorch men with fire.

Revelation 18:8

"For this reason in one day her plagues will come, pestilence and mourning and famine, and she will be burned up with fire; for the Lord God who judges her is strong.

Revelation 20:9

And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them.

Exodus 9:23,24

Moses stretched out his staff toward the sky, and the LORD sent thunder and hail, and fire ran down to the earth. And the LORD rained hail on the land of Egypt. So there was hail, and fire flashing continually in the midst of the hail, very severe, such as had not been in all the land of Egypt since it became a nation.

Leviticus 10:1,2

Now Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took their respective firepans, and after putting fire in them, placed incense on it and offered strange fire before the LORD, which He had not commanded them. And fire came out from the presence of the LORD and consumed them, and they died before the LORD.

[Guest]

Leviticus 10:1,2

Now Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took their respective firepans, and after putting fire in them, placed incense on it and offered strange fire before the LORD, which He had not commanded them. And fire came out from the presence of the LORD and consumed them, and they died before the LORD.

My point excactly wayfinder, and they believe he won't do it again, even though he says he will.

[wayfinder]

I guess it would be wise to take out some fire insurance, don't you think.

[Guest]

yep

[skyblue888]

You have taken that quote out of context, and you know it. I have shown this before.

What context?

Read the chapter in the Desire of Ages where I took this from and you will see what the context is.

[pnattmbtc]

I'll know more about that when the time comes, but like John, I do trust God. When you find out that God does what he says, are you still going to want to go to heaven?

No answer. Well, I don't blame you. It's not a very tenable position.

I believe God will do what He says, which is to treat the lost in the judgment with "kindness, mercy, and love" (GC 542). I don't see how one could construe the ideas you have as agreeing with this statement.

[John317]

I clarified what I was saying here:

Quote:

Here's my understanding of your position. Please correct it if you see any errors.

1.You believe that God will have you determine for how long those who are be being burnt alive should be burnt.

2.You couldn't do this now.

3.The reason you think you couldn't do it now is because you don't hate sin enough.

I'm basing 2 and 3 on the fact that when I asked if you could sentence a loved one to be burnt for so many hours or days, you said no, and, by way of explanation as to why not, pointed out that you do not hate sin as God does. So I concluded that you think that if you hated sin more, you'd be able to do this, which seems like the natural conclusion, given what you said.

This is a dead-end as far as a valid argument against the destruction of the wicked is concerned.

In the first place, truth is not proved by our feelings about things. In fact, if I told you I don't even believe the wicked will die but that all will be saved, it wouldn't help in any way prove or disprove whether the wicked will be destroyed or the manner of their destruction.

God does not need to study anyone's life in order to know anything, because He knows everything about each person who ever existed. The Investigation and examination of people's lives is not for God's sake. He learns nothing. He knew us in detail before we were even born. He also knew whether we would love Him or hate Him.

I will continue this later.

[Guest]

I was shown that the judgments of God would not come directly out from the Lord upon them, but in this way: They place themselves beyond His protection. He warns, corrects, reproves, and points out the only path of safety; then, if those who have been the objects of His special care will follow their own course, independent of the Spirit of God, after repeated warnings, if they choose their own way, then He does not commission His angels to prevent Satan's decided attacks upon them. It is Satan's power that is at work at sea and on land, bringing calamity and distress and sweeping off multitudes to make sure of his prey.--14MR 3 (1883). {LDE 242.2}

She's talking about everyday type judgements here, that happen during ones life. She is not talking about the final judgment. When she talks about the final judgment, it goes like this:

But fire from God out of heaven is rained upon them, and the great men, and mighty men, the noble, the poor and miserable, are all consumed together. I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. {EW 294}

[John317]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

I'll know more about that when the time comes, but like John, I do trust God. When you find out that God does what he says, are you still going to want to go to heaven?

No answer. Well, I don't blame you. It's not a very tenable position.

Please realize that posters cannot always stay online and they may have problems with their computers, such I have had for the last few days. It goes off periodically and I need to get it repaired. So be patient and your questions will all be answered. Don't assume that because you don't get an immediate answer, the person can't answer, etc. People have families and many other things they must do. :-)

[pnattmbtc]

This is a dead-end as far as a valid argument against the destruction of the wicked is concerned.