A Discussion of the Cause of the Flood

[Guest]

Good question John

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Indeed. And God made them so. He made the laws of physics what they are. Those physical laws wouldn't exist apart from His design. The same with the moral law and the law of sin and death.

I think it's important to keep in mind that the laws you're referring to all have to do with the first death. The second death is eternal, and is punishment. The first death is a temporary, unconscious sleep and is not punishment. God raises people up out of death in order to understand the issues of the Great Controversy and to prove that they are still the same as they were when they went into the grave. They prove that God is righteous and just in destroying sinners. In God's universe, the wicked must suffer the full penalty of the law for the sinful deeds done in the body. The demands of justice must be met. GC 673. Compare EW 52-54.

[pnattmbtc]

Me:What do you think this language means? Does it mean the wicked will be set on fire? To burn like a torch? Or something else?

J:The Bible teaches that the fire from God out of heaven will burn up the wicked. See Mal. 4: 1, 3 and Is. 1: 28 and 66: 24. "The fire will burn them up." It will consume them. It will turn them to ashes beneath the feet of the righteous.

[pnattmbtc]

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This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.

At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe. (DA 764)

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"I indeed baptize you in water unto repentance," said John; "but He that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: He shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire." Matt. 3:11, R. V., margin. ...In all who submit to His power the Spirit of God will consume sin. But if men cling to sin, they become identified with it. Then the glory of God, which destroys sin, must destroy them. Jacob, after his night of wrestling with the Angel, exclaimed, "I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved." Gen. 32: 30.

...At the second advent of Christ the wicked shall be consumed "with the Spirit of His mouth," and destroyed "with the brightness of His coming." 2 Thess. 2:8. The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked.

In the time of John the Baptist, Christ was about to appear as the revealer of the character of God. His very presence would make manifest to men their sin. Only as they were willing to be purged from sin could they enter into fellowship with Him. Only the pure in heart could abide in His presence. (DA 107, 108)

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The principles of kindness, mercy, and love, taught and exemplified by our Saviour, are a transcript of the will and character of God. Christ declared that He taught nothing except that which He had received from His Father. The principles of the divine government are in perfect harmony with the Saviour's precept, "Love your enemies." God

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executes justice upon the wicked, for the good of the universe, and even for the good of those upon whom His judgments are visited. He would make them happy if He could do so in accordance with the laws of His government and the justice of His character. He surrounds them with the tokens of His love, He grants them a knowledge of His law, and follows them with the offers of His mercy; but they despise His love, make void His law, and reject His mercy. While constantly receiving His gifts, they dishonor the Giver; they hate God because they know that He abhors their sins. The Lord bears long with their perversity; but the decisive hour will come at last, when their destiny is to be decided. Will He then chain these rebels to His side? Will He force them to do His will?

Those who have chosen Satan as their leader and have been controlled by his power are not prepared to enter the presence of God. Pride, deception, licentiousness, cruelty, have become fixed in their characters. Can they enter heaven to dwell forever with those whom they despised and hated on earth? Truth will never be agreeable to a liar; meekness will not satisfy self-esteem and pride; purity is not acceptable to the corrupt; disinterested love does not appear attractive to the selfish. What source of enjoyment could heaven offer to those who are wholly absorbed in earthly and selfish interests?

Could those whose lives have been spent in rebellion against God be suddenly transported to heaven and witness the high, the holy state of perfection that ever exists there,-- every soul filled with love, every countenance beaming with joy, enrapturing music in melodious strains rising in honor of God and the Lamb, and ceaseless streams of light flowing upon the redeemed from the face of Him who sitteth upon the throne,--could those whose hearts are filled with hatred of God, of truth and holiness, mingle with the heavenly throng and join their songs of praise? Could they endure the glory of God and the Lamb? No, no; years of probation

were granted them, that they might form characters for heaven; but they have never trained the mind to love purity; they have never learned the language of heaven, and now it is too late. A life of rebellion against God has unfitted them for heaven. Its purity, holiness, and peace would be torture to them; the glory of God would be a consuming fire. They would long to flee from that holy place. They would welcome destruction, that they might be hidden from the face of Him who died to redeem them. The destiny of the wicked is fixed by their own choice. Their exclusion from heaven is voluntary with themselves, and just and merciful on the part of God. (GC 541-543)

[skyblue888]

The fire will be real but it will not be fire coming directly out from the Lord.

sky

[teresaq]

It's God's will that sin not continue forever. God is in control. There is no law in the universe that God did not make. God precedes all law.

in what way could God have preceeded the 10 commandments? was there ever a time that the law was not "a transcript of Gods character"?

was there ever a time when God did not require, "love God supremely and your fellowman as yourself"?

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

john317:The full penalty of the law must be visited on sin and rebellion. See GC 673. me: the penalty of drinking hemlock is death.

the penalty of jumping off the empire state building is death.

the penalty of smoking is health problems, some of which lead to death.

Indeed. And God made them so. He made the laws of physics what they are. Those physical laws wouldn't exist apart from His design. The same with the moral law and the law of sin and death.

I think it's important to keep in mind that the laws you're referring to all have to do with the first death. The second death is eternal, and is punishment. The first death is a temporary, unconscious sleep and is not punishment. God raises people up out of death in order to understand the issues of the Great Controversy and to prove that they are still the same as they were when they went into the grave. They prove that God is righteous and just in destroying sinners. In God's universe, the wicked must suffer the full penalty of the law for the sinful deeds done in the body. The demands of justice must be met. GC 673. Compare EW 52-54.

the full penalty of the law, my brother, is death, pure and simple. eternal death. always has been, always will be. God stepped in and gave us a second chance, that is the only difference.

so you dont really see sin as all that destructive? that if God did not constantly intervene and circumvent, then sin would not eventually annihilate us? that sin is really not so bad, just God doesnt like it and will "punish" us for doing it?

[teresaq]

I think that it's self-evident that God could have made sinners so that they would live eternally. Gen. 3: 22-24 shows this. He also could have-- if He'd chosen to-- created a planet to be eternally inhabited by immortal sinners. He has the power to keep sinners alive indefinitely if He wanted to. But then why would He?

if God had made it so that sinners could live eternally how would that have proved satan and his principles wrong in this "great controversy"?

how would anyone have known what sin does then?

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John 317

Me:What do you think this language means? Does it mean the wicked will be set on fire? To burn like a torch? Or something else?

J:The Bible teaches that the fire from God out of heaven will burn up the wicked. See Mal. 4: 1, 3 and Is. 1: 28 and 66: 24. "The fire will burn them up." It will consume them. It will turn them to ashes beneath the feet of the righteous.

What do you think this means? Will the wicked be burning like a torch?

It means just what it says. The wicked will burn up. That is what both the Bible and Ellen White say. See the above texts. "Some will be destroyed as in a moment while others will suffer many days." Satan will be the last to perish. GC 673.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Indeed. And God made them so. He made the laws of physics what they are. Those physical laws wouldn't exist apart from His design. The same with the moral law and the law of sin and death.

I think it's important to keep in mind that the laws you're referring to all have to do with the first death. The second death is eternal, and is punishment. The first death is a temporary, unconscious sleep and is not punishment. God raises people up out of death in order to understand the issues of the Great Controversy and to prove that they are still the same as they were when they went into the grave. They prove that God is righteous and just in destroying sinners. In God's universe, the wicked must suffer the full penalty of the law for the sinful deeds done in the body. The demands of justice must be met. GC 673. Compare EW 52-54.

the full penalty of the law, my brother, is death, pure and simple. eternal death. always has been, always will be.[/quote']

The full penalty of the law is that the wicked not only die but that the wicked are punished according to their deeds. See GC 673: 1.

This is evidently a concept that some people haven't yet grasped or been able to come to terms with. Justice obviously is not done if the mass murderer is sentenced by the court to the same punishment as the man who went over the speed limit.

According to the Bible and EW 52-54, the principle works the same in God's government. The wicked will be punished according to the deeds done in the body. Jesus Himself said this in Rev. 22: 12, etc. After a careful examination of the lives of the wicked, the saints and Jesus decide during the 1000 years "what portion the wicked must suffer, according to their deeds."

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God stepped in and gave us a second chance, that is the only difference.

Yes, that's true.

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so you dont really see sin as all that destructive? that if God did not constantly intervene and circumvent, then sin would not eventually annihilate us? that sin is really not so bad, just God doesnt like it and will "punish" us for doing it?

Not at all. Of course sin is very destructive. As the Bible says, the wages of sin is death. God made the universe in such a way that sin is destructive. It's not something that happens apart from God's will.

[Guest]

Jesus Himself said this in Rev. 22: 12, etc. After a careful examination of the lives of the wicked, the saints and Jesus decide during the 1000 years "what portion the wicked must suffer, according to their deeds."

You left out a couple John. There's more if you need em.

Pro 24:12 If you say, Behold, we knew it not; does not he that weighs the heart consider it? and he that keeps your soul, does not he know it? and shall not he render to every man according to his works?

Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

Rev 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he who searches the minds and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your work

Isa 3:10 Say you to the righteous, that it shall be well with him: for they shall eat the fruit of their deeds.

Psa 28:4 Give them according to their deeds, and according to the wickedness of their endeavors: give them after the work of their hands; render to them what they deserve.

Mat 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

It's God's will that sin not continue forever. God is in control. There is no law in the universe that God did not make. God precedes all law.

in what way could God have preceeded the 10 commandments?

God created the moral law, which is summarized in the 10 Commandments. The Ten Commandments were written to meet the needs of man in his present fallen condition. God created all things, including the law.

The law in its particular prohibitions or commands is what it is because God made it that way. God says something is wrong, and therefore it is wrong. God did not say it's wrong because it was wrong apart from God's will and prior to His decision. Right and wrong are determined solely by God's will.

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was there ever a time that the law was not "a transcript of Gods character"?

The principles of the moral law are as eternal as God is, because the principles are derived from God's character.

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was there ever a time when God did not require, "love God supremely and your fellowman as yourself"?

No.

[John317]

You're right. The evidence for this is unmistakable.

[John317]

[pnattmbtc]

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

What do you think this means? Will the wicked be burning like a torch?[/quote']

It means just what it says. The wicked will burn up. That is what both the Bible and Ellen White say. See the above texts. "Some will be destroyed as in a moment while others will suffer many days." Satan will be the last to perish. GC 673.

When you say, "It means just what it says." what do you think this means?

We all know how fire normally burns, we've all seen this, but you evidently have some other idea in mind, since you think, as far as I can tell, that the wicked will burn continuously like a torch without being consumed for many days. But this isn't how fire works. So on the one hand, you maintain it's a literal fire, and it consumes, but on the other hand, it doesn't consume people, but apparently just serves to cause them excruciating pain. Why would God do something like this?

I'm not understand what you think is happening here.

[John317]

We all know how fire normally burns, we've all seen this, but you evidently have some other idea in mind, since you think, as far as I can tell, that the wicked will burn continuously like a torch without being consumed for many days. But this isn't how fire works. So on the one hand, you maintain it's a literal fire, and it consumes, but on the other hand, it doesn't consume people, but apparently just serves to cause them excruciating pain. Why would God do something like this?

I'm not understand what you think is happening here.

Because God does not will them to die quickly but to "suffer according to the deeds done in the body." That is why some are destroyed as in a moment while others suffer much longer. See GC 673.

The full penalty of the law must be visited; the demands of justice must be met. Remember that both the Bible and Ellen White refer to the second death as a punishment. The Bible says, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay, saith the Lord." GC says, "The wicked receive their recompense in the earth."

Why doesn't God simply let Satan go to sleep peacefully? Why does Ellen White say that Satan will continue to live on and suffer many days after all others are no longer in existence?

The only reason possible is that God does not will that it be otherwise. Justice would not be fulfilled if all the wicked suffered to the same degree any more than man's justice is satisfied if all transgressors are sentenced to the same punishment.

I'm fine with God's will. I want God's will to be done on earth as it is in heaven. I want an end to sin and sinners. I want heaven-- where righteousness dwells-- to completely fill this earth. Before that can happen, Satan and all the wicked who follow Him must be destroyed, and then the earth can be recreated.

[pnattmbtc]

T:This doesn't address my question. If the fire is literal fire, or, to word it differently, actual fire (which means the same thing), which is to say, fire which is physical, and hot, and burns, it would kill a person very quickly. Why don't they die very quickly?

J:Because God does not will them to die quickly but to "suffer according to the deeds done in the body." That is why some are destroyed as in a moment while others suffer much longer.

[Guest]

Hey pnatt, John didn't say it, he just quoted it. God said it. You're quarrel is with God.

[skyblue888]

God said it yes and now let Him explain what He means because He says, "My thoughts are not your thoughts and My ways are not your ways."

sky

[John317]

It sounds like your argument may be with the Bible and with God, because all I am doing is quoting the Bible.

People can try to explain it in such a way that it appears that God does not do what the Bible says He will do, but I think that's merely an attempt to please man's thinking and make God in man's image. People do that a lot when they try to make it appear that sin is good and what's good is bad.

When I study this topic with people, I leave the Bible texts as they read. I don't paraphrase them in a way that contradicts the plain language of Scripture. Ellen White says that we should take the Bible "just as it reads." So I make sure people understand God's love and mercy, and that they know God does not get pleasure out of the death of the wicked, but people need to face the truth of what the Bible teaches in plain language.

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I asked you earlier if you could do this to your loved ones, and you said no. You explained that you don't hate sin like God does. Why do you think hating sin more would make you capable of what if it were done here on earth could only be construed as torturing someone? [/quote']

First of all, I'm sure you agree that we don't hate sin as God does. I think that's self-evident.

By "hating sin" I mean having an accurate knowledge of the damage that sin has caused and having the same determination that God has to exterminate it forever. That will be uppermost in our minds, which it plainly is not at this time.

However, we aren't being asked by God to burn people. God wants us to do everything we can at this time to help people be saved. That is our assigned job.

Names are being blotted out of the Book of Life. These names could be those of our loved ones. I wouldn't want to do that, either. But God is doing it, and He is not doing it without intelligent beings "assisting" Him in that decision. See Daniel 7: 10. Are these beings who are assisting God in the Investigative Judgment unfeeling and uncaring? No. Yet they make decisions having to do with eternal salvation and eternal loss.

Please see EW 52, 54 where it is plain that the saints make similar deliberations with Jesus and come to similar judgments about the wicked.

[John317]

[pnattmbtc]

T:I do not understand the idea that God must set people on fire in order to make them suffer. Also I don't understand why you would even think God is capable of doing this.

J:It sounds like your argument may be with the Bible and with God, because all I am doing is quoting the Bible.

[John317]

God said it yes and now let Him explain what He means because He says, "My thoughts are not your thoughts and My ways are not your ways."

sky

I completely agree with you but the fact is that we are going by the words of Scripture, written by God's prophets and apostles. We can't say that Scripture is our thoughts and our ways.

It would be different if we were conjecturing & supposing how the wicked are destroyed, but we are quoting God's Word and the Spirit of Prophecy. I know that I am right to say that "fire comes down from God out of heaven and consumes" the wicked; but if I were to say that "the fire will come from the weapons of mankind," I cannot possibly be sure I'm right. I would have to admit that these are my thoughts, and not the teaching found in the Bible.

You might be right about the destruction of the wicked, sky, but if you are, it seems to me very clear that the prophets got it wrong. I'll go with the prophets every time.

[Guest]

Amen

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

T:I do not understand the idea that God must set people on fire in order to make them suffer. Also I don't understand why you would even think God is capable of doing this.

J:It sounds like your argument may be with the Bible and with God, because all I am doing is quoting the Bible.

There's certainly nowhere in Scripture that teaches that God must set people on fire in order to make them suffer to pay for their sins.

You didn't address my point. What makes you think God is even capable of doing such a thing?

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J:People can try to explain it in such a way that it appears that God does not do what the Bible says He will do, but I think that's merely an attempt to please man's thinking and make God in man's image.

Scripture does not teach that God must set people on fire in order to make them suffer to pay for their sins.

Please show me any verse in the Bible that plainly and clearly contradicts Rev. 20: 9; Mal. 4: 1, 3; Is. 1: 28; 66: 24. Quote the Bible verse which says that the wicked do not die the way these and other verses say. Where is the verse which teaches fire does not come down from God out of heaven and consume the wicked?