A Discussion of the Cause of the Flood

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

What's the context here?

The final judgment.

The context is the belief that the righteous will be made happy by the sight of the wicked suffering. For proof of this, see GC 535. Examine carefully paragraph 1.

Therefore it is not the final judgment but the idea that the dead are suffering now and that the righteous will be happy to see them go on suffering without end.

Quote:

JOHN317--What teaching is Ellen White writing about in regard to the above comment?

Quote:

Torturing the wicked by setting them on fire for eternity.

Examine GC 535 carefully:

She is not talking about the fact that the wicked burn up but that they will never cease to suffer. And she is talking about the idea that the righteous would receive pleasure from seeing them suffer endlessly.

Therefore, again, the context of the quote proves that it has nothing to do with the righteous assisting Christ in judging the wicked as the SDA church teaches it. See the explanations of SDA beliefs on the subject in the book, Seventh-day Adventists Believe.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Quote:

J:Finally, I believe you are wrong to conclude that if I say the fire comes down from God out of heaven and consumes the wicked, that I am therefore obligated to believe that the wicked will burn endlessly.

You must have very seriously misread something I wrote. I cannot believe you seriously think this is what I have concluded. Do you? If so, why? What did I write which led you to such a conclusion? To be clear as to what I'm asking, it is that you quote something I wrote which says I have concluded that if you say that fire comes down from God out of heaven and consumes the wicked, that you are therefore obligated to believe that the wicked will burn endlessly.

You must be seriously misunderstanding something. Please quote what I wrote that led you into these ideas, and explain your reasoning.

You said,

Quote:

The text says "forever and ever." If one were to do what you claim to be doing (i.e., reading the text according to "ordinary language") one would be constrained to believe in eternal torment. See post#282876

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

In the Garden of Eden, didn't God tell Adam he would die if He disobeyed God's command not to partake of the fruit of a particular tree?

At the Flood, didn't Noah preach that if people didn't get into the ark, they would be destroyed in the waters of the flood?

At Sodom, didn't God send a message to Lot and his family that if they didn't obey and get out of the city, they would "be consumed in the punishment of the city"?

Isn't that fire that "consumed" the wicked used in the Bible (Jude 7) as an example of the consuming of the wicked after the Great White Throne Judgment?

[/quote']

Please explain your reasoning here.

I'm showing that it is not contrary to God's way to warn sinners of the consequences of sin in order to persuade them to obey Him. This comes up on the context of the Third Angels Messages. We are to preach to people that there are serious and terrible consequences to worshipping the beast and receiving its mark. The consequence is that those who worship the beast and receive his mark will be lost and finally destroyed in the fires that God made for Satan and his fallen angels.

Many people think that God would never use warnings like this to get people to think seriously about the issues of true worship, but He has done so in the past and He will do it again before the end. He does it out of love, but those who refuse to listen will pay the penalty.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Me:Reading this in a straight-forward way appears to me to be implying that I am

1.Trying to explain things in such a way that it appears that God does not do what the Bible says He will do.

2.Trying to make it appear that sin is good and what's good is bad.

Please don't write things like this. Please just stick to the arguments involved, and leave out the comments about "people." I think you can adequately make any points you need to make without these references to "people."

J:I do believe that you are explaining the Scriptures in such a way as to make it appear that God does not do what the Bible says He will do.

This is better worded than the last time. At least your not hiding behind the word "people."

I wasn't "hiding behind the word 'people'."

Posters have a perfect right to use that kind of language, i.e., "people." There is nothing against the rules of the forum in its use.

[Guest]

Amen

[John317]

Quote:

Whenever the study of the Scriptures is entered upon without a prayerful, humble, teachable spirit, the plainest and simplest as well as the most difficult passages will be wrested from their true meaning. The papal leaders select such portions of Scripture as best serve their purpose, interpret to suit themselves, and then present these to the people, while they deny them the privilege of studying the Bible, and understanding its sacred truths for themselves. The whole Bible should be given to the people just as it reads. It would be better for them not to have Bible instruction at all than to have the teaching of the Scriptures thus grossly misrepresented. (GC 521)

I think this applies to you, and you think this applies to me.

I never said or thought that this applies to you. I think you are wrong in your view of the destruction of the wicked but I've never thought or said that the above paragraph applies to you.

[John317]

[Guest]

Psa 62:12 Also unto you, O Lord, belongs mercy: for you render to every man according to his work.

2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that everyone may be recompensed for the things done in his body, according to what he has done, whether it be good or bad.

[John317]

Important and very relevant verses, Richard.

The Bible, including the apostle Paul, is certainly consistent on the topic, from Genesis to the end of Revelation.

[Guest]

That's right.

[skyblue888]

God will do what the Bible says He will do just as He said to David, "I will bring evil out of thine own house." But we know from the inspired commentary that that did not mean that He Himself would prompt these acts of wickedness but that He would not exercise His power to prevent them. (P.P.739)

So it will be after the thousand years. It is written that at that time "fire will come from God out of heaven to devour them." Rev.20:9.

We have read that after the 1000 years Satan and his angels will convince all who have just been raised to life again (hundreds of billions) to surround the City in an effort to overcome those who are within its walls, Christ and all the redeemed. As they approah the City for the onslaught, Jesus will appear on the walls of the City with the redeemed and the multitudes will be arrested. Then they will see in panoramic view the whole plan of salvation and they will be made to understand the part that Satan and his angels played to bring them to eternal ruin and they will see how often the holy angels protected them from the evil angels; they will also see how they have not taken advantage of the opportunities given them to study the Bible that they might have become familiar with its truths. When it is all said and done they will begin to accuse one another but they will all agree to put the blame upon Satan and his angels for their being lost. They will turn upon them with a vengeance, with the fury of demons.

Mrs. White was shown that this battle will be like no other, so much so that all the battles of the past combined will pale in comparison. And let us not forget that she was also shown that time will have been given them to build powerful implements of war in order to take the City but now these weapons will be employed to destroy Satan and his angels.

In the midst of this titanic struggle to stay alive fire will erupt from the midst of them, possibly from their own weapons. Fire will come down from the sky upon them as volcanoes will explode and the earth will open as it will be mightily shaken and fire from the abyss will finally engulf the earth until it is like a sea of fire.

sky

[Guest]

Satan rushes into the midst of his followers and tries to stir up the multitude to action. But fire from God out of heaven is rained upon them, and the great men, and mighty men, the noble, the poor and miserable, are all consumed together. I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained. Said the angel, "The worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon." Satan and his angels suffered long. Satan bore not only the weight and punishment of his own sins, but lso of the sins of the redeemed host, which had been placed upon him; and he must also suffer for the ruin of souls which he had caused. Then I saw that Satan and all the wicked host were consumed, and the justice of God was satisfied; and all the angelic host, and all the redeemed saints, with a loud voice said, "Amen!" {EW 294}

[skyblue888]

yaya Richard i know about this statement, we all do

[Guest]

So you're saying she was wrong then?

[Guest]

Num 16:35 And there came out a fire from the LORD, and consumed the two hundred and fifty men that offered incense.

[Guest]

But if the LORD makes a new thing, and the earth opens its mouth, and swallows them up, with all that belongs unto them, and they go down alive into the pit; then you shall understand that these men have provoked the LORD. And it came to pass, as he had made an end of speaking all these words, that the ground split asunder that was under them: And the earth opened its mouth, and swallowed them up, and their households, and all the men that belonged unto Korah, and all their goods. They, and all that belonged to them, went down alive into the pit, and the earth closed upon them: and they perished from among the congregation. Num 16:30-33

[teresaq]

Remember that both the Bible and Ellen White refer to the second death as a punishment.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: John317

...People have lots of wrong "feelings." I have learned not to go by feelings when they contradict the Bible

My honest, sincere belief here is that we need to conform our ideas to the Bible, and not measure truth by our sinful, natural feelings.

This is very interesting. Here is a comment from the SOP:

Quote:

Will the redeemed in heaven be lost to all emotions of pity and compassion, and even to feelings of common humanity? Are these to be exchanged for the indifference of the stoic or the cruelty of the savage? No, no; such is not the teaching of the Book of God.(GC 535)

You've admitted that you can't do that which you think God will have you to do. You appear to be explaining your lack of ability to do this as "sinful, natural feelings." Yet the SOP speaks of the "feeling of common humanity" in the context of this very discussion! She asks if these should exchanged for the indifference of the stoic or the cruelty of the savage, which is precisely what you would have to do in order to sentence your son or wife or mother to be sentenced to be burned alive for up to many days.

I think you're going about resolving the cognitive dissonance caused by your inability to do that which you think God would have you to do in the wrong way. It's not that your feelings, which prevent you from doing so are "sinful." There is nothing sinful about not being able to sentence your mother to be burned alive for days. These are the "feelings of common humanity." God does not wish you to exchange these "for the indifference of the stoic or the cruelty of the savage." The problem is with the thought process that leads to the idea that God would have you to do things which are so cruel that you can't do them.

i would say we need to take our feelings to the Lord.

trying to change our feelings on our own based on our, perhaps, faulty understanding of the bible, i have to admit, terrifies me. how do i know i am not trying to kill the Holy Spirit speaking to me?

no, much better to take my thoughts and feelings to the Lord in prayer and discuss it with Him and wait, wait, on the Lord.

[John317]

Mrs. White was shown that this battle will be like no other, so much so that all the battles of the past combined will pale in comparison. And let us not forget that she was also shown that time will have been given them to build powerful implements of war in order to take the City but now these weapons will be employed to destroy Satan and his angels.

In the midst of this titanic struggle to stay alive fire will erupt from the midst of them, possibly from their own weapons. Fire will come down from the sky upon them as volcanoes will explode and the earth will open as it will be mightily shaken and fire from the abyss will finally engulf the earth until it is like a sea of fire.

Please show references from Ellen White where she speaks of the greatest battle at this time. Also quote where she says fire will erupt from the midst of them. Are you referring to GC 672?

There is no question that the wicked want to destroy Satan but as far as I can determine, Ellen White gives no indication that Satan dies at the hands of the wicked. If you know where she says this, please give the reference or quote.

Here are Ellen White's clear words, "[God] will destroy them [the wicked] utterly and cause them to be as if they had not been; then His justice will be satisfied."

Here God causes them to die, and He is portrayed in revelation as being the source of the fire which destroys the wicked.

The messenger of the Lord also says, "He formed man out of the dust of the earth, and the disobedient and unholy will be consumed by fire and return to dust again. I saw that the benevolence and compassion of God in this matter should lead all to admire His character and to adore His holy name. After the wicked are destroyed from off the earth, all the heavenly host will say, 'Amen.'" EW 221.

Clearly Ellen White is implying that the God who made us from dust has the right to return us to the dust. I completely agree with that. Romans 9: 21-23 makes the same argument under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

I take those words just as they read, and I do admire His character and adore His holy name, believing that He will do precisely what Ellen White describes here in plain English. If God literally formed man of the dust of earth, then there is no reason that I can see to say that God will not literally "cause [the wicked} to be as if they had not been" by "consuming them with fire" and "destroying them from off the earth."

Why did Ellen White write this if she did not mean it? Certainly she knew how her words would be understood. Having studied her, I know that she was very concerned that her writings be understood clearly. She never returned to them in order to make any changes about the destruction of the wicked, and she never told people they were misunderstanding her meaning on that subject. On the contrary she repeated the same words and the same idea over and over again.

[Guest]

Amen

[John317]

GC 535 to 536---

How repugnant to every emotion of love and mercy, and even to our sense of justice,

is the doctrine that the wicked dead are tormented with fire and brimstone in an eternally burning hell;

that for the sins of a brief earthly life they are to suffer torture as long as God shall live.

Yet this doctrine has been widely taught and is still embodied in many of the creeds of Christendom.

Said a learned doctor of divinity: "The sight of hell torments will exalt the happiness of the saints forever.

When they see others who are of the same nature and born under the same circumstances, plunged in such misery, and they so distinguished, it will make them sensible of how happy they are."

Another used these words: "While the decree of reprobation is eternally executing on the vessels of wrath, the smoke of their torment will be eternally ascending in view of the vessels of mercy, who, instead of taking the part of these miserable objects,will say, Amen, Alleluia! praise ye the Lord!"

Where, in the pages of God's word, is such teaching to be found?

Will the redeemed in heaven be lost to all emotions of pity and compassion, and even to feelings of common humanity?

Are these to be exchanged for the indifference of the stoic or the cruelty of the savage?

No, no; such is not the teaching of the Book of God.

Those who present the views expressed in the quotations given above may be learned and even honest men, but they are deluded by the sophistry of Satan.

He leads them to misconstrue strong expressions of Scripture, giving to the language the coloring of bitterness and malignity which pertains to himself,

but not to our Creator.

"As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die?" Ezekiel 33:11.

What would be gained to God should we admit that He delights in witnessing unceasing tortures;

that He is regaled with the groans and shrieks and imprecations of the suffering creatures whom He holds in the flames of hell?

Can these horrid sounds be music in the ear of Infinite Love?

It is urged that the infliction of endless misery upon the wicked would show God's hatred of sin as an evil which is ruinous to the peace and order of the universe.

Oh, dreadful blasphemy!

...

It is beyond the power of the human mind to estimate the evil which has been wrought by the heresy of eternal torment.

The religion of the Bible,

full of love and goodness, and abounding in compassion,

is darkened by superstition and clothed with terror.

When we consider in what false colors Satan has painted the character of God,

can we wonder that our merciful Creator is feared, dreaded, and even hated?

The appalling views of God which have spread over the world from the teachings of the pulpit have made thousands, yes, millions, of skeptics and infidels. (GC 535, 536)

Yes, indeed, she is referring to eternal torment.

Exactly what is the principle here?

Notice how many times she talks about the objection to the concept of eternal suffering and eternal torment. That is her emphasis. She is not talking about the fact that God destroys the wicked per se or that they are consumed in fire. After all, the entire SDA church believed that. She is plainly objecting to the heresy that (1) the wicked go on suffering endlessly, and (2) God and the righteous are delighted to see the eternal suffering. She even says that "this is the doctrine" that so many have taught and believed. What doctrine? Why, the doctrine of eternal torment.

By "this doctrine," therefore, she does not mean that "fire comes down from God" and consumes the wicked. Ellen White herself taught as plain as day that God would destroy the wicked in fire and that this fire comes from God. Great Controversy, p. 672. Your argument, I'm afraid, would make Ellen White contradict what she said over and over and over again.

[Guest]

You're absolutely right John, that was the point Mrs. White was making, the heresy of the doctrine of eternal torment. Just as plain as the nose on your face.

[John317]

You've admitted that you can't do that which you think God will have you to do.

... I think you're going about resolving the cognitive dissonance caused by your inability to do that which you think God would have you to do in the wrong way.

This is misinterpreting what I said.

I never said that God would have anyone on this earth burn up other people.

Therefore, it is inaccurate to say what you've said here.

For one thing, according to Scripture, it is the fire that comes from God that burns up the wicked. For another, what you are referring to occurs during the 1000 years. Study EW 52, 53. Jesus Christ makes the decision, in unison with the saints, as to the "portion which the wicked must suffer," and Jesus announces the sentence of eternal death.

[John317]

Indeed, and my nose is pretty plain, ain't it? lol

[Guest]