Is the Adventist Church Really Pro-life?

[Dr. Shane]

I do believe the civil government has a right to ban abortion. I also think that the issue should be placed on the ballot and not decided by judges. However, if it were on the ballot, I vote for abortion to remain legal and support various restrictions on it.

[doug yowell]

[Steve Billiter]

Shane, I thought you were a Christian, sorry for the mistake. Christians do not vote to legalize killing babies.What if you were aborted?

Exo 20:13 You shall not kill.

Does it say except for unborn children?

The Bible is pro-life, why should the Adventist church not be?

Jer 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Psa 127:3 Lo, children are an heritage of the LORD: and the fruit of the womb is his reward.

Psa 139:13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.

Isa 44:2 Thus saith the LORD that made thee, and formed thee from the womb, which will help thee; Fear not, O Jacob, my servant; and thou, Jesurun, whom I have chosen.

[doug yowell]

Originally Posted By: Nic Samojluk

Shane,

You state that “there is also the data that shows nations and states allow for legal abortion and restrict it actually have fewer abortions than nations that completely ban abortions.”

Can give us the source of this information? Is it from a reliable organization?

I have provided this information before and I believe you have rejected it. I don't think we need to play that game again. I have read it from various sources and don't buy into giant world-wide conspiracies.

Sorry,Shane,I didn't get that information. In fact, I got excommunicated from this discussion for awhile so I missed it. Could you run it by for me one time? Maybe the server can block Nic out since he doesn't need it.

[doug yowell]

Originally Posted By: there buster

Quote:

If we do not have the right to impose morality on others, then what right the government has to punish those who steal and rape? Those are moral actions. The same is true about perjury. Some people are in jail for merely lying. Murdering has more serious consequences than telling a lie. Society does regulate morality, and immoral actions are being dealt with punishment.

But you're missing the point. None of these laws need a moral justification. The actions are punished not because they are immoral, but because they are destructive to an orderly society. We do not outlaw all lying, even though it is clearly immoral. But attempting to punish all lies would require government so intrusive, and would be so often abused, that such a law would itself be destructive to orderly society.

While there may be moral support for many laws, there is no need to 'legislate morality.'

There buster,

You must have a different definition for morality. My dictionary defines morality as “principles or rules of conduct.” Based on this definition, you are the one who is “missing the point.” Perhaps, if you can share with me your definition of morality, then we might try to understand each other. Based on my dictionary definition of morality, the government does legislate morality and for this reason, it should legislate the murder of the unborn.

The role of the government is to have a set of laws which tend to protect the life and property of all the human beings living under its jurisdiction. If you agree with me that the unborn belong to the human race, then it follows that the state must protect the life of unborn babies. This was the case for over two millennia when physicians were required to be bound by the Hippocratic Oath which stated that doctors would “do no harm.” The duty of doctors was to heal—not to kill.

This has been altered by society. If you believe that physicians have the right to kill some and heal others, then you are living under a very confusing moral system. What is legal is not necessarily moral. There is a higher law which will one day stare us in the face. It is true that the government cannot outlaw all lying. It would require a policeman for each human being; nevertheless, outlawing murder is reasonable and necessary for an orderly society.

Actually, I don't think either of you is missing the point. It's those who hide behind the emperor's new clothes,i.e. separation of church/state,you can't legislate morality,ect... that miss the point. Which is (I think); that even IF abortion wasn't immoral it's still destructive enough to society to justify outlawing it.It seems the public now uses the term selectively when they want to eliminate any participation by religious people

.Eliminating the moral wording to the secular mind does not in essence eliminate it's existence it just removes the (ridiculous) argument.

[Dr. Shane]

I am a big supporter of CPC's and I'm stoked to see that are too.But that wasn't my question.My question began with an "if".Do you wanna give it another shot?

Oh, an "if" question. Like, if the moon was made out of cheese would it taste good on crackers? I am not a big fan of "if" questions when I know what the reality is. The moon isn't made out of cheese so we can't eat it on crackers.

[Dr. Shane]

Shane, I thought you were a Christian, sorry for the mistake. Christians do not vote to legalize killing babies.What if you were aborted?

I am a Seventh-day Adventist Christian. My denomination publishes the Liberty Magazine.

[Dr. Rich]

For some people I know, it would have been a blessing to others if they had been aborted! LOL

[doug yowell]

Originally Posted By: doug yowell

I am a big supporter of CPC's and I'm stoked to see that are too.But that wasn't my question.My question began with an "if".Do you wanna give it another shot?

Oh, an "if" question. Like, if the moon was made out of cheese would it taste good on crackers? I am not a big fan of "if" questions when I know what the reality is. The moon isn't made out of cheese so we can't eat it on crackers.

Come on, Shane. Everybody knows the moon is really made out of marshmallow and chocolate and DOES taste good on a graham cracker but not everybody knows what you know about the reduction of abortion rates when abortion is legalized. Some of us idiots actually believe that abortions increase when abortion is legalized. So I'd like to know what your response would be IF (perish the thought!!)YOU were wrong. After all, even I was wrong once!Is that really such an unreasonable request?

[doug yowell]

Originally Posted By: Steve Billiter

Shane, I thought you were a Christian, sorry for the mistake. Christians do not vote to legalize killing babies.What if you were aborted?

I am a Seventh-day Adventist Christian. My denomination publishes the Liberty Magazine.

The Liberty Magazine? I think we may have found the problem.

[John317]

Shane, I thought you were a Christian, sorry for the mistake. Christians do not vote to legalize killing babies.

Yes, Shane is a Seventh-day Adventist Christian.

We might not agree with positions that some other SDAs take on abortion, but our church doesn't require members to believe a certain way on this topic.

Quote:

The official Seventh-day Adventist position on abortion , is that abortions for reasons of birth control, gender selection, or convenience are not condoned. At times, however, women may face exceptional circumstances that present serious moral or medical dilemmas, such as significant threats to the pregnant woman's life, serious jeopardy to her health, severe congenital defects carefully diagnosed in the fetus, and pregnancy resulting from rape or incest. While the general tone toward abortion is negative, the individual Adventist may take any position on the political spectrum. Abortions are performed in Adventist hospitals.

I'm in agreement with the above statement. I wouldn't favor or encourage abortion myself and neither would my wife, but I don't support making all abortions illegal. I think the option needs to be available for those in the circumstances described in the position statement.

[Nic Samojluk]

Originally Posted By: Nic Samojluk

Teresa,

You have made some good suggestions like outlawing adultery, divorce, and fornication. ... If the people were ready for regulating such immoral behavior, I would readily vote for them. The reason? I am being taxed for the consequences of such crazy behavior. [/quote']yes, this is the very mentality of which i reference.

it isnt just about abortion or homosexuality, it goes far deeper. it is about the need to control ones fellowman.

Teresa,

Tell me: Are you against rape, stealing, perjury, and sexual abuse of little children. Do you agree that society need to hold accountable people who harm others with such criminal behavior. If you do, then tell me why are you so set up against holding people accountable for taking human life. Would you agree that dismembering the body of an unborn baby has more serious consequences than rape, stealing and sexual abuse of children? Please, answer this question of mine!

[Nic Samojluk]

Originally Posted By: Nic Samojluk

Shane,

You state that “there is also the data that shows nations and states allow for legal abortion and restrict it actually have fewer abortions than nations that completely ban abortions.”

Can give us the source of this information? Is it from a reliable organization?

I have provided this information before and I believe you have rejected it. I don't think we need to play that game again. I have read it from various sources and don't buy into giant world-wide conspiracies.

Shane,

I am surprised that you ignore a set of data provided by those engaged in the abortion business, but prefer to believe other contradictory data which the same organization is providing in order to promote the killing of the unborn. Both set of data cannot be true. If you believe that they are, then give me a logical explanation for such confusing information coming from the same source!

Tell me why would the defenders of abortion report 744,600 abortions in the U.S. for 1973, one million by 1975, and 1.5 million for 1983, and at the same time argue that the legalization of abortion tends to diminish the number of abortions. Can’t you see the contradiction here? The data contradicts their argument in defense of abortion.

Can’t you see here a repeat of the same inflated figures for illegal abortions which were fed up to the media before 1973 in an attempt to deceive the public and thus reach the goal of legalizing the killing of the unborn? Did you ever read the confession of Dr. Nathanson, who was responsible for said inflated figures? When the number of illegal abortions was estimated at 100,000, he reported said figures to be one million. Are these tactics credible, especially when we know the source of said reports?

Would you rely on statistics coming from the tobacco industry regarding the incidence of lung cancer? How come you rely on statistics provided by the abortion industry? If legalizing abortion tends to reduce the incidence of abortion, then perhaps we should legalize all criminal behavior in order to reduce crime.

[Nic Samojluk]

Originally Posted By: doug yowell

IF you found out that the data showed that banning abortion actually REDUCED the number of abortions, would you be willing to support anti-abortion legislation??

I use to support a ban on abortion. In fact, I have been very active in pro-life causes for many years. I am very much anti-abortion. However I have learned that banning abortion doesn't reduce the number of abortions. I live on the Texas-Mexico border, am bilingual and get the Mexican news in Spanish all the time. Mexico has no less abortions than the US and may actually have more. And the US is not a nation that discourages abortions like I believe it should. If the US were to discourage abortions our abortion numbers would quickly fall below those in Mexico where abortion is illegal.

I financially support Care Net. That is how we should be fighting abortion. Not by using the civil government. We are not Catholics. Support what works - crisis pregnancy centers - and forget what doesn't work - civil government banning abortion.

Can you document these seemingly deceptive statistics you are relying on for the number of abortion in Mexico?

[Nic Samojluk]

I do believe the civil government has a right to ban abortion. I also think that the issue should be placed on the ballot and not decided by judges. However, if it were on the ballot, I vote for abortion to remain legal and support various restrictions on it.

Would you also vote for legalizing the use of drugs, for decriminalizing rape, incest, burglary, and sexual abuse of children? If not, tell me why not!

[Nic Samojluk]

Shane, I thought you were a Christian, sorry for the mistake. Christians do not vote to legalize killing babies.What if you were aborted?

Exo 20:13 You shall not kill.

Does it say except for unborn children?

The Bible is pro-life, why should the Adventist church not be?

Jer 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Psa 127:3 Lo, children are an heritage of the LORD: and the fruit of the womb is his reward.

Psa 139:13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.

Isa 44:2 Thus saith the LORD that made thee, and formed thee from the womb, which will help thee; Fear not, O Jacob, my servant; and thou, Jesurun, whom I have chosen.

Good question and good arguments. There are no better answers than those solidly based on a “Thus said the Lord.”!

[Nic Samojluk]

Originally Posted By: Steve Billiter

Shane, I thought you were a Christian, sorry for the mistake. Christians do not vote to legalize killing babies.What if you were aborted?

I am a Seventh-day Adventist Christian. My denomination publishes the Liberty Magazine.

Yes, our denomination publishes the "Liberty" magazine, and it also adopted the "Guidelines on Abortion" which justify what God did forbid in the Decalogue: murder. We attempted to alter what was clearly written by God's finger, and you are trying to justify said action. Did you ever read the story of how our church did this? Are you aware that this was done for the sake of profit? Can the Lord bless what he did curse? There is a curse in the last book of the Bible for those who dare to alter what God has inspired!

[Nic Samojluk]

For some people I know, it would have been a blessing to others if they had been aborted! LOL

Do you think that either a pregnant woman or her physician are wise enouth to predict which unborn baby would eventually live a life not worth living? If not, then why bring this argument in defense of the indefensible?

[Nic Samojluk]

Come on, Shane. Everybody knows the moon is really made out of marshmallow and chocolate and DOES taste good on a graham cracker but not everybody knows what you know about the reduction of abortion rates when abortion is legalized. Some of us idiots actually believe that abortions increase when abortion is legalized. So I'd like to know what your response would be IF (perish the thought!!)YOU were wrong. After all, even I was wrong once!Is that really such an unreasonable request?

Great answer! I could not resits the temptation to read your response several times!

[doug yowell]

Yes, Shane is a Seventh-day Adventist Christian.

We might not agree with positions that some other SDAs take on abortion, but our church doesn't require members to believe a certain way on this topic.

Quote:

The official Seventh-day Adventist position on abortion , is that abortions for reasons of birth control, gender selection, or convenience are not condoned. At times, however, women may face exceptional circumstances that present serious moral or medical dilemmas, such as significant threats to the pregnant woman's life, serious jeopardy to her health, severe congenital defects carefully diagnosed in the fetus, and pregnancy resulting from rape or incest. While the general tone toward abortion is negative, the individual Adventist may take any position on the political spectrum. Abortions are performed in Adventist hospitals.[/quote']JohnIII:XVII,Your diplomatic approach to this discussion is commendable but I think you're overlooking some important aspects that many of us posting here find unacceptable for a Remnant Church. While the church does not "condone" abortions for gender selection ,convenience, or birth control neither does it condemn them. Given that these reasons constitute 93-95% of all abortions done in the US each year we,who oppose abortion,take this "general tone" as disingenious. The church's "official position"

is neither official nor a position. It is not a policy. It requires, as you have pointed out,no member to believe or act in a certain way. Thus an SDA member can be a member of Operation Rescue or an abortion clinic owner and still be an SDA in good standing!(As long as the OR member kept quiet about their beliefs)A person who favors legalization (the status quo)of abortion supports a position which both the Scriptures and our Adventist founders oppose. Even the exceptions given that you agree with create major moral contradictions when measured against the Biblical standard of the value of human life and the essence of our health message.Unless one believes that killing an unborn human being violates no tenant of Adventist Christianity,how can anyone support the church's present position?

[doug yowell]

For some people I know, it would have been a blessing to others if they had been aborted! LOL

Perhaps so, Dr.Rich, but wouldn't they have been an even greater blessing if they would have been born again??

[Nic Samojluk]

Quote:

The official Seventh-day Adventist position on abortion , is that abortions for reasons of birth control, gender selection, or convenience are not condoned. At times, however, women may face exceptional circumstances that present serious moral or medical dilemmas, such as significant threats to the pregnant woman's life, serious jeopardy to her health, severe congenital defects carefully diagnosed in the fetus, and pregnancy resulting from rape or incest. While the general tone toward abortion is negative, the individual Adventist may take any position on the political spectrum. Abortions are performed in Adventist hospitals.

I'm in agreement with the above statement. I wouldn't favor or encourage abortion myself and neither would my wife, but I don't support making all abortions illegal. I think the option needs to be available for those in the circumstances described in the position statement.

John,

I have a few questions for you:

1. Do you see any consistency between the church’s opposition to the use of abortion as a birth control method and its justification under such a variety of circumstances, including one you missed for some reason from your list: When the woman claims that the unwanted pregnancy is affecting her mental health? Have you ever seen a woman faced with an unwanted pregnancy who is not depressed?

2. What good does it do to say that the church does not condone the use of abortion as a birth control method, if it turns around and makes a list of exceptions covering 90 percent of the abortions taking place in the U.S.? Can you really figure out what kind of abortions the church really condemns? If the church accepts the mental exception as a reason for choosing abortion, then can you tell me when an abortion is morally wrong?

3. Are you aware that a few years ago our “Ministry” magazine reported that five of our hospitals were offering elective abortions to their patients? I hope you are aware that en elective abortion means that there is nothing wrong with the baby. Catholic hospitals refuse to perform abortions. Should not our “Remnant” church stick to a higher standard of morality like the Church of Rome?

4. Would you also support the option for lesser crimes than abortion like rape, burglary, drug dealing, and sexual abuse of little children? If not, why not?

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

is drug abuse a private matter or does it risk others safety and rights?

That depends on who you talk to' date='Teresa. Those who think that drug use is a personal matter and are convinced that it affects no one other than the user will argue that criminalizing drug use is a violation of their Constitutional and moral rights.Those who see a negative effect of free drug use on their society will argue that the overall detrimental result of that drug use outweighs the personal rights claim of those who cause the negative effects. Since both sides cannot be right,who gets to make the final call? [/quote']what is the documentation of drug abuse and how it affects others, even if just the family?

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: there buster

Quote:

If we do not have the right to impose morality on others, then what right the government has to punish those who steal and rape? Those are moral actions. The same is true about perjury. Some people are in jail for merely lying. Murdering has more serious consequences than telling a lie. Society does regulate morality, and immoral actions are being dealt with punishment.

But you're missing the point. None of these laws need a moral justification. The actions are punished not because they are immoral, but because they are destructive to an orderly society. We do not outlaw all lying, even though it is clearly immoral. But attempting to punish all lies would require government so intrusive, and would be so often abused, that such a law would itself be destructive to orderly society.

While there may be moral support for many laws, there is no need to 'legislate morality.'

The role of the government is to have a set of laws which tend to protect the life and property of all the human beings living under its jurisdiction.

all born human beings.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: Shane

I am a Seventh-day Adventist Christian. My denomination publishes the Liberty Magazine. [/quote']

Can the Lord bless what he did curse? There is a curse in the last book of the Bible for those who dare to alter what God has inspired!

the bible does not address abortion.

abortion and infanticide were prevalent in the time of Jesus and the apostles and God inspired none of them to say a word about abortion.

as the church continued apostatizing and taking on the spirit of the world was when the "church fathers" started speaking to the issue of abortion, etc.

we have the papal atrocities of over a thousand years to witness as to what happens when we "legislate morality".

we are free to repeat those atrocities if we so wish.