Is the Adventist Church Really Pro-life?

[Outta Here]

Andrew Jackson University.

I do not know which journal it was published in. I'll keep looking.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

ah...an online university.

It doesn't appear that they offer a PhD degree. Andrew Jackson University

[phkrause]

Originally Posted By: rudywoofs

I'd like to see some scripture on abortion too.

No you wouldn't.

Originally Posted By: rudywoofs

Steve, I'm not interested in scripture that doesn't address abortion in this thread. I'm probably one of very few on the board who believes that a woman has the right to choose abortion under certain circumstances, such as rape or incest. I also believe that spontaneous abortions are not caused by the devil, but are the body's own way of ridding itself of problematic fetuses or embryos. (Have you ever seen a full term baby born with no head? I have. It's not a pretty sight.) And for the record, I do not believe that the mating of a sperm and egg equals a baby...it's a zygote.

I believe that it is a woman's right to choose whether to have an abortion or not. I wouldn't do it, but I also refuse to judge a woman who has.

What kind of a zygote is it RW?" Animal, vegetable, or mineral? When will it become something else? Is a six week old zygote still a zygote? A 12week old? A 40 week old? How many abortionists will remove a six week old zygote? You state that you're "not interested in scripture that doesn't address abortion in this thread",yet you offer your belief that it's a "women's right to choose" to abort without having to be judged. It is not coincidental that you offer no scripture to support YOUR position yet you are quick to defend it and criticize those who do use the Bible to postulate theirs. Why the double standard? If your "right to choose" is Scriptural and not the "opinion of men" then let the Scripture speak.If God doesn't want us to tell others that abortion is a sin then let Him speak.

Doug I don't see anywhere that rudywoofs is saying that a women that is having an abortion should not be judged by God. I read that she is saying that she will not judge that women. I agree with that, the reason that someone has an abortion is between that person and God. Not us and them, we don't have any idea why they resorted to abort that pregnancy. We can maybe guess. God will judge that women when the time comes.

pk

[Nic Samojluk]

i just love this, and it is so true!!

Quote:

Wrong. In reality there is merely overwhelming evidence that most people don't take time to read their own Bibles. People will listen to their pastors and to Christian radio broadcasters. They will skim through easy-to-read pamphlets and perhaps look up the one or two verses printed therein, but they don't actually read their Bibles and make up their own minds on issues such as abortion. They merely listen to others who quote a verse to support a view they heard from someone else. By definition, most Christians, rather than reading for themselves, follow the beliefs of a Culture of Christianity -- and many of the Culture's beliefs are based on one or two verses of the Bible, often taken out of context.

and then there are those who study the writings of our church leaders or such, but they still do not search the scriptures.

but back to the topic. this is an interesting thought.

Quote:

In Ezekiel 37:8-10 we watch as God re-animates dead bones into living soldiers, but the passage makes the interesting note that they were not alive as persons until their first breath. Likewise, in Genesis 2:7, Adam had a human form and a vibrant new body but he only becomes a fully-alive human person after God makes him breathe.

Quote:

And in the same book, in Genesis 38:24, we read about a pregnant woman condemned to death by burning. Though the leaders of Israel knew the woman was carrying a fetus, this was not taken into consideration. If indeed the Jews, and the God who instructed them, believed the fetus to be an equal human person to the mother, then why would they let the fetus die for the mother's crimes? The truth is simple. A fetus is not a human person, and its destruction is not a murder. Period.

i think i might use different terminology but i respect the thought.

Teresa,

Yes, and there are also those who read the Scriptures through the eyes of those who are determined to support humanity’s propensity to sin. When Satan attempted to entice Jesus to sin he quoted Scripture, but the son of God was not deceived. By the way, did you discover these Bible texts you quoted yourself or by reading the arguments of those who defend the killing of the unborn. I am asking this, because I am 77 and I have seen pro-abortion people use them again and again. You are not presenting anything new, and I bet you did not discover them yourself.

By quoting Ezekiel 37:8-10 and Genesis 2:7 you are ignoring all the other texts which describe the unborn as real babies. I’ll give you one example, and you can find the rest: When Mary, the mother of Jesus, got pregnant by the Holy Spirit, the Bible states that she was with child, and when she went to visit her cousin, Elizabeth, it says that the child leaped in her womb. Are you trying to make me believe that unborn babies are dead until they take their first breath? Throughout the Bible, unborn are referred to as babies. Did you notice this? You need more than that?

The life of Adam and Eve and that of those who will be resurrected starts in a unique way different from those who are generated through conception, development and birth. Human life is dependent on the provision of oxygen. Before birth the oxygen is supplied by the pregnant woman; at birth by breathing. The life of babies does not start at birth, but at conception. This is a biological fact that you should have learned in school.

Killing an unborn baby is not murder? What are you killing, dead meat? Have you seen pictures of pre-born babies? They move around, they suck their thumb, they react to sound and music, and you are saying that they are not alive? Who are you kidding? All you are doing is deceiving yourself!

[Nic Samojluk]

Originally Posted By: rudywoofs

I'd like to see some scripture on abortion too.

No you wouldn't.

Originally Posted By: rudywoofs

Steve, I'm not interested in scripture that doesn't address abortion in this thread. I'm probably one of very few on the board who believes that a woman has the right to choose abortion under certain circumstances, such as rape or incest. I also believe that spontaneous abortions are not caused by the devil, but are the body's own way of ridding itself of problematic fetuses or embryos. (Have you ever seen a full term baby born with no head? I have. It's not a pretty sight.) And for the record, I do not believe that the mating of a sperm and egg equals a baby...it's a zygote.

I believe that it is a woman's right to choose whether to have an abortion or not. I wouldn't do it, but I also refuse to judge a woman who has.

What kind of a zygote is it RW?" Animal, vegetable, or mineral? When will it become something else? Is a six week old zygote still a zygote? A 12week old? A 40 week old? How many abortionists will remove a six week old zygote? You state that you're "not interested in scripture that doesn't address abortion in this thread",yet you offer your belief that it's a "women's right to choose" to abort without having to be judged. It is not coincidental that you offer no scripture to support YOUR position yet you are quick to defend it and criticize those who do use the Bible to postulate theirs. Why the double standard? If your "right to choose" is Scriptural and not the "opinion of men" then let the Scripture speak.If God doesn't want us to tell others that abortion is a sin then let Him speak.

Excellent reply! I would like a proof text condemning polygamy, because I am ready to take a second wife, and also a few slaves. Unless someone provides me with such proof texts, I am ready to do the unthinkable.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

i just love this, and it is so true!!

Quote:

Wrong. In reality there is merely overwhelming evidence that most people don't take time to read their own Bibles. People will listen to their pastors and to Christian radio broadcasters. They will skim through easy-to-read pamphlets and perhaps look up the one or two verses printed therein, but they don't actually read their Bibles and make up their own minds on issues such as abortion. They merely listen to others who quote a verse to support a view they heard from someone else. By definition, most Christians, rather than reading for themselves, follow the beliefs of a Culture of Christianity -- and many of the Culture's beliefs are based on one or two verses of the Bible, often taken out of context.

and then there are those who study the writings of our church leaders or such, but they still do not search the scriptures.

but back to the topic. this is an interesting thought.

Quote:

In Ezekiel 37:8-10 we watch as God re-animates dead bones into living soldiers, but the passage makes the interesting note that they were not alive as persons until their first breath. Likewise, in Genesis 2:7, Adam had a human form and a vibrant new body but he only becomes a fully-alive human person after God makes him breathe.

Quote:

And in the same book, in Genesis 38:24, we read about a pregnant woman condemned to death by burning. Though the leaders of Israel knew the woman was carrying a fetus, this was not taken into consideration. If indeed the Jews, and the God who instructed them, believed the fetus to be an equal human person to the mother, then why would they let the fetus die for the mother's crimes? The truth is simple. A fetus is not a human person, and its destruction is not a murder. Period.

i think i might use different terminology but i respect the thought.

Teresa,

Yes, and there are also those who read the Scriptures through the eyes of those who are determined to support humanity’s propensity to sin.

it has already been established that the agenda is to manipulate, and coerce even, to make the sda church, and its members, other than what it, and they, is and are.

but thank you for sharing your perspective. :)

[teresaq]

I would like a proof text condemning polygamy, because I am ready to take a second wife, and also a few slaves. Unless someone provides me with such proof texts, I am ready to do the unthinkable.

well, if that is your wish, so be it. :)

[teresaq]

Doug I don't see anywhere that rudywoofs is saying that a women that is having an abortion should not be judged by God. I read that she is saying that she will not judge that women. I agree with that, the reason that someone has an abortion is between that person and God. Not us and them, we don't have any idea why they resorted to abort that pregnancy. We can maybe guess. God will judge that women when the time comes.

pk

yes, and i agree also.

i dont believe any of us have the right to manipulate in anothers life since they, not we, are the ones who has to live the rest of their life with those consequences.

and nic, state of the dead, remember? sdas believe in an unconscious state of the dead, so the unborn is not living with any "consequences". it is in a peaceful state of rest awaiting resurrection morn.

[teresaq]

ah...an online university.

It doesn't appear that they offer a PhD degree. Andrew Jackson University

bump

[Nic Samojluk]

I will not judge what someone else does regarding abortion.

The baby I was talking about had no head - only the brainstem. The organs of that baby were harvested and used for transplantation, as per the parents request. Organs are harvested on persons who are on life support...not breathing on their own.

One of the problems here that I see is that many people consider a baby as being from the very time of conception. I don't. That's a zygote. When does a glob of cells become a baby? That's the question.

But I don't believe in abortions other than for incest, rape, or when a mother's life is in danger.

Again, I state, I will not judge what a woman decides to do. That is her choice and is between her and God, not her and me. If she decides to have an abortion I would rather it be done in a hospital where proper care can be given, than in a back alley where she might die in the process. If SDA hospitals do this, it is not my job, nor yours, to judge them either.

Rudywoofs,

Did you know that those anencephalic babies are placed on life support not because they are about to die the next minute. Some of them are able to live for weeks and months. They are placed on life support precisely because this way they can argue that removing the life support is morally equivalent to letting nature takes its course. The truth is that the baby is killed, and the baby is placed on life support for the purpose of killing the baby when is most convenient.

Did you also know that some patients who are in a semi-comatose state are placed on life support, not because they are about to die, but for the convenience of nurses who do not have the time to spoon-feed their patients. This is the reason Terri Schiavo was connected to a feeding tube, and the tube was removed when they decided that she must die, but she continued to breathe for two weeks without food and water.

You say that what our Adventist hospitals do is no concern of yours. If you were to see your neighbor pulling a child’s arms from their sockets, and then the legs, and finally crush the child’s head, would you say: “This is their choice. I will not judge them”? Would you not call 911 and report the crime? If the neighbor were a priest or a pastor, would you be concerned? What our hospitals are doing, they are doing in the name of the church, the “Remnant Church,” the one claiming to be keeping God’s Commandments.

[Nic Samojluk]

God is silent on the issue of abortion.

Yes, God is silent on the issue of abortion, and he is silent on the issue of slavery, popygamy, and genocide. Does this mean that being a polygamist or enslaving other human beings is morally acceptable to you?

[Nic Samojluk]

Quote:

God is silent on the issue of abortion.

God is also silent on those who inject drugs into their veins, does that make it OK, or is the principle still there?

Man has legislated the use of alcohol, mostly promoting it, as well as gambling, prostitution here in Nevada, and a host of other evils. The principles and laws against abortion are all throughout Scripture,so we all must be persuaded in our own minds.

Common sense, a love for human life, the Bible, The SOP, and the Holy Spirit all reveal to me that abortion is a great evil that God will avenge.

Those who look for hooks to hang preconceived doubts upon will always find them.

Amen, Amen, and another big AMEN!

[SivartM]

God is never silent on moral issues... the problem is that people don't want to ask Him how He feels about destroying the life He created...

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: rudywoofs

God is silent on the issue of abortion.

Yes, God is silent on the issue of abortion, and he is silent on the issue of slavery, popygamy, and genocide.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

ah...an online university.

It doesn't appear that they offer a PhD degree. Andrew Jackson University

bump

[Nic Samojluk]

I refuse to judge a woman who has an abortion. You are comparing apples and oranges. You are also judging me.

We are not judging you, but rather the sin you are defending. God only can read the inner thoughts of our minds and accurately detect which side of the controversy between good and evil each one of us is.

When Saint Peter acted against what was right, Paul reprimanded him publicly. Peter was the maximum authority of the nascent Christian church, yet a man inferior in position in the church reprimanded him. Was Paul wrong in condemning what Peter was teaching by his example?

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

In which journal was your doctoral dissertation published?

[Nic Samojluk]

In the case of a mothers life being endangered is one thing, but most abortions are the result of fornication, a sin. Then it becomes "convenient" for a woman's so called "right to choose" to murder another human life for which she has no right to do thus compounding the sins.

It is simply a case of humans putting their actions and beliefs above that of God when committing adultery, (fornication)then killing the baby and continuing on like its "business as usual."

The male who causes the woman to be pregnant also has responsibility. If he aids and promotes the abortion, then he is also guilty.

what is God's answer to fornication besides not to do it; then after the fact?

Exo 22:16 And if a man entice a maid that is not betrothed, and lie with her, he shall surely endow her to be his wife.

Exo 22:17 If her father utterly refuse to give her unto him, he shall pay money according to the dowry of virgins.

This obviously provides for the care of a baby born out of wedlock, and solves the fornication problem. God does not say to abort the baby and continue to sin.

Great post. We need more posters like you who are determined to stick to what the Bible teaches in its sacred pages.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Originally Posted By: rudywoofs

ah...an online university.

It doesn't appear that they offer a PhD degree. Andrew Jackson University

bump

[teresaq]

Common sense, a love for human life, the Bible, The SOP, and the Holy Spirit all reveal to me that abortion is a great evil that God will avenge.

[Nic Samojluk]

Steve Billiter wrote:

Quote:

most abortions are the result of fornication

prove it

Here is a link where you can verify this: http://www.abortiontv.com/Misc/AbortionStatistics.htm#United%20States

The majority of abortions are done on behalf of females younger than 25, and the majority of Americans are getting married past said age. From this, you draw your conclusion. And here is more:

All abortion numbers are derived from pro-abortion sources courtesy of The Alan Guttmacher Institute and Planned Parenthood's Family Planning Perspectives.

Click here for the Guttmacher Institute's latest fact sheet on abortion.

93% of all abortions occur for social reasons (i.e. the child is unwanted or inconvenient). Most of the couples who marry, they do so in order to start a family.

http://www.abortionno.org/Resources/fastfacts.html

[Nic Samojluk]

Nic, from what school did you earn your PhD, and in which journal was your dissertation published?

The answer to your questions is here:

http://sdaforum.com/page13.html .

I did it the hard way, by sacrificing half of my real estate business time and by cutting part of my sleep time. I did it part time, by distant learning, and it took me a decade to complete the program.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

okay...but I'm still not going to sit in judgement of the women who had the abortions.

ah...an online university.

It doesn't appear that they offer a PhD degree. Andrew Jackson University

bump

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

IN WHICH JOURNAL WAS YOUR DISSERTATION PUBLISHED???

[Nic Samojluk]

Originally Posted By: Nic Samojluk

This is incredible! Are you equating forced sex with murder? [/quote']my response was regarding whether james white(?) was referring to a man forcing his wife to have sex or to have an abortion.

your response is related to an imaginary post and is manipulative bordering on the coercive.

You can't ignore the reference to "murder" in James White quote. Whether James was demanding more sex from his wife has nothing to do with the murder he is talking about.