Is the Adventist Church Really Pro-life?

[Nic Samojluk]

Originally Posted By: Nic Samojluk

You are right!There is no specific reference to abortion in the Bible. ...

Exodus 21:22-23 is an explicit reference to abortion in the form of inadvertantly caused during a fight between two men. In that case the one causing the abortion is to be killed "a life for a life" if the unborn child is indeed killed.

What is not listed is the act of deliberately TRYING to kill the unborn child.

Since there is no higher penalty than "life for life" I suppose that the more deliberate sin can only get that same penalty.

in Christ,

Bob

Yes, in spite of the fact that the "abortion" term is not used!

[Steve Billiter]

Originally Posted By: rudywoofs

I refuse to judge a woman who has an abortion. You are comparing apples and oranges. You are also judging me.

We are not judging you, but rather the sin you are defending. God only can read the inner thoughts of our minds and accurately detect which side of the controversy between good and evil each one of us is.

When Saint Peter acted against what was right, Paul reprimanded him publicly. Peter was the maximum authority of the nascent Christian church, yet a man inferior in position in the church reprimanded him. Was Paul wrong in condemning what Peter was teaching by his example?

Nic is correct, neither him, nor I, nor anyone else to my knowledge is judging in the aspect you (Theresa I believe)mention.

If one was to judge in the manner you speak of, then one would say," If you commit abortion you are going to hell." Or any other like condemnatory words addressed at a person.

The concept of "judging" is little understood by professing Christians.

John 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

Our work is not to pronounce sentence. Judging can also mean taking action for the good and the right.My judgment upon abortion is based on God's word, the Holy Spirit's impressions to me, and common sense. Is my judgment righteous? I believe so. Do I understand this issue perfectly? No, only God does.

Christians are enjoined to call sin by its right name without condemning the person. Those words spoken in truth can work in conjunction with the Holy Spirit to bring conviction of sin and the need for repentance to the soul.Then it becomes a savor of life upon life.

Teaching Bible principles only, is not condemning unless one does something similar in pronouncing sentence on someone when that is not anyones work.

Usually one who engages in calling others "Bible Thumpers" is analogous to just saying 'I will do what I want regardless of what God says." So the one who is upholding God's word becomes a "Bible Thumper" to the one who rejects God's word.

That occurs because personal attacks become the norm for those who reject truth because they cannot defend a position from God's Word, so it becomes a legitimate defense mechanism in their own eyes. The danger for those who reject any of God's truth is they will set themselves up for advanced delusions. This should be avoided at all costs.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Nic wrote:

Quote:

By the way, I am assuming that you do hold a legitimate Ph.D. degree from an accredited university. Can you tell us which one? Is it Harvard perhaps? Since you have asked me so many questions, I feel entitled to ask you one in return! Can you also tell us the topic of your dissertation, and the title of the books you have published? Since you are so hard on me, I would like to know a little bit about your credentials!

And can you identify yourself? What is your real name? Why are you hiding behind a pseudonym?

My credentials for what?

This is an Internet forum. I need not disclose my real name. The administrators know who I am.

[Outta Here]

Aubrey, your word "axiomative" does not exist, at least not yet, but I think your meaning is clear according to the definition of "axiom."

Quick definitions (axiom)

▸ noun: (logic) a proposition that is not susceptible of proof or disproof; its truth is assumed to be self-evident

▸ noun: a saying that widely accepted on its own merits

Steve,

Thank you for taking the time to correct my use of "axiomative". As evident by the quotations marks I put around it, I was aware it was not a word. That's what happens when I post when I'm sick, on several different medications and have had not enough sleep the night before.

I should have used the word axiomatic and not used the quotation marks.

However, because you took the time to point out the flaw in my post, I gladly accept the implied invitation to correct the grammar and other flaws in posts you make. In fact, I look forward to it!

Thank you for being so openly agreeable to correction.

Sincerely,

Aubrey

[Steve Billiter]

I think the point I would make here is that we don't cause millions of people to die so there is enough food and services for the rest of us.What we should do is trust and obey God.

Mat 6:33 But seek you first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

Mat 6:34 Take therefore no thought for tomorrow: for tomorrow shall take thought of the things for itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.

[Steve Billiter]

Why thanks Aubrey. You may correct my grammar or any incorrect words or any incorrect Bible theology you may see however, I may disagree, but if I see you are correct I will say so with my thanks. I really don't care for error of any kind.

I enjoy learning, so when I encountered your word, being unfamiliar with it I checked it with the Online Dictionary to discover the meaning.

To my knowledge, quotation marks around a word is not evidence of it not being a word. Quotation marks are used for emphasis and quotes obviously but an emphasis upon being a non-word seems a bit contradictory.

It appears to me that the best evidence for a word not being a word, is not to use it without an explanation, but it also seems that your word is a good candidate for inclusion in our dictionaries as it seems a valid form of the base word axiom.

I'm sorry to hear you are not feeling well, you are in my prayers. God Bless! Steve

[Outta Here]

Very well, shall we begin? I have made several corrections to your posts above. You will see the corrections in red type. In one section, I changed the word you used "comitt" to commit, as "comitt" is not in the dictionary. I assumed you meant the word: commit.

Aubrey, your word "axiomative" does not exist, at least not yet, but I think your meaning is clear according to the definition of "axiom."

Quick definitions (axiom)

▸ noun: (logic) a proposition that is not susceptible of proof or disproof; its truth is assumed to be self-evident

▸ noun: a saying that widely accepted on its own merits

God's position on everything, to me,[space](I'm not saying I know all of His will) is clearly defined. It is up to us to figure out what that means, if we care to.[space]Pride will cause some to exalt their own opinions over the expressed will of God. It also becomes quite problematic for the unconverted to understand God's word. In fact, it really is impossible to know it to a saving result.

1Co 2:14 But the natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

All of us influence others either for good or for evil; there is no middle ground unless one remains silent on an issue.

Those who love their own opinions will seek to persuade others of that. And those who know God's word should teach others, and stand for truth.

Because it also comes down to this:

Mat 12:37 For by your words you shall be justified, and by your words you shall be condemned.

Pro 23:7 For as he thinks in his heart, so is he.

Dan 12:3 And they that are wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars forever and ever.

Edited by Steve Billiter (Today at 08:23 AM)

Exo 21:22 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that there is a miscarriage, and yet no mischief follows: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.

Exo 21:23 And if any mischief follows, then you shall give life for life,

I believe it's saying in case of miscarriage the penalty is as the husband or judge determines. "Mischief" that may follow that, appears to be the death of the mother and then it becomes a matter of the death penalty. This appears to be not an intentional abortion, but irresponsible violent actions.

_________________________

Steve Billiter

A deformed child deserves a chance at life just like everyone else. Only God has the prerogative to say whether one will live or die.

The woman's false argument that it is her body, and she can choose to abort a life that is not even her own is not true either.[space]God is the owner of all created works including humans and angels. We do not even own ourselves. We are His through creation and redemption. As I said before, fornication is the major cause of unwanted pregnancies and abortions.

The best way to prevent abortion is the teach the gospel, and God's laws. Strict obedience to the command not to commit adultery, which is all sex outside of marriage, will stop all abortions except accidental ones and those where the mothers life is in mortal danger.

Abortions done because of fornication just perpetuates that sin and the sin of murder, by killing the unborn. Those who take part in abortion are doing the work of the enemy, no matter their "justifications."

1Pe 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walks about, seeking whom he may devour:

Satan is a cruel oppressor. His object is to destroy all human life. Abortion is one way he inspires his human agents to worship him as he certainly is the god of this world. When one obeys Satan, what is he doing?

Exo 20:3 You shall have no other gods before me.

Mat 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other.

That person then who commits abortion is worshiping Satan by destroying life. That is what Adam and Eve did when they disobeyed God by eating the forbidden fruit; they chose Satan over God, which is what all sin is. It is the transgression of the law.

It matters not whether one even believes Satan exists as he would much prefer it if people doubt he does exist, because that means they deny the Bible.

Choose life, not death!

Edited by Steve Billiter (Today at 09:19 AM)

_________________________

Steve Billiter

Nic is correct, neither he, nor I, nor anyone else to my knowledge is judging in the aspect you (Theresa, I believe)[space]mention.

If one were to judge in the manner you speak of, then one would say," If you commit abortion you are going to hell," or any other like condemnatory words addressed at a person.

The concept of "judging" is little understood by professing Christians.

John 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

Our work is not to pronounce sentence. Judging can also mean taking action for the good and the right.[space]My judgment upon abortion is based on God's word, the Holy Spirit's impressions to me, and common sense. Is my judgment righteous? I believe so. Do I understand this issue perfectly? No, only God does.

Christians are enjoined to call sin by its right name without condemning the person. Those words spoken in truth can work in conjunction with the Holy Spirit to bring conviction of sin and the need for repentance to the soul.[space]Then it becomes a savor of life upon life.

Teaching Bible principles only, is not condemning unless one does something similar in pronouncing sentence on someone when that is not anyone's work.

Usually one who engages in calling others "Bible Thumpers" is analogous to one who just says 'I will do what I want regardless of what God says." So the one who is upholding God's word becomes a "Bible Thumper" to the one who rejects God's word.

That occurs because personal attacks become the norm for those who reject truth because they cannot defend a position from God's Word. So it becomes a legitimate defense mechanism in their own eyes. The danger for those who reject any of God's truth is they will set themselves up for advanced delusions. This should be avoided at all costs.

Edited by Steve Billiter (Today at 09:59 AM)

_________________________

Steve Billiter

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Originally Posted By: rudywoofs

I really would like you to understand that I am NOT for abortions except when a mother's life is at risk, or in the case of rape or incest. But I won't judge anyone's decision to have an abortion.

Pro-lifers need to understand that there would be a vast number of deformed children who would always need to be institutionalized and never live a normal life if not for abortion. Are you willing to take care of *those* children?

Abortion is a difficult decision for a woman to make. Don't make it any harder for her by Bible thumping her. Or forcing her to go to a back alley to obtain an abortion. At least have the compassion to let her go to a place, SDA or not, where a safe procedure can be done.

Rudywoofs,

1. The rape and incest cases: You see nothing wrong with killing the innocent baby, but let the rapist live. Is this the kind of justice you promote?

2. One of the first things Hitler did was to kill the deformed, the handicapped, the veteran amputees, and the unproductive members of society. Isn’t you philosophy encouraging the same? Why would you kill the handicapped that were not born but save those who were born? Are the diagnosis of malformations in the pre-born 100 percent fool proof? Is your aim a society with no handicapped human beings? Where do you differ from Hitler’s views?

3. You seem to have a great compassion for the pregnant woman determined to kill her unborn baby. How about compassion for the baby? Is your justice system equitable?

If you read carefully you will note I referred to people that would need to be forever institutionalized their entire lives in order to live due to their gross deformities. Are you willing to foot the cost for those individuals?

I see everything wrong with rape cases.

We are not living in Hitler's era.

I DO NOT JUDGE A PREGNANT WOMAN'S CHOICE IN HAVING AN ABORTION, NOR DO I JUDGE IF SHE DECIDES TO KEEP THE PREGNANCY GOING AND HAVE THE BABY.

MY PERSONAL OPINION IS THAT ABORTIONS ARE WRONG, EXCEPT IN THE CASE WHERE THE LIFE OF THE MOTHER IS AT RISK, IN THE CASE OF RAPE OR INCEST.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: Nic Samojluk

When Saint Peter acted against what was right' date=' Paul reprimanded him publicly. Peter was the maximum authority of the nascent Christian church, yet a man inferior in position in the church reprimanded him. Was Paul wrong in condemning what Peter was teaching by his example? [/quote']

Our work is not to pronounce sentence. Judging can also mean taking action for the good and the right.

nic, in one of your posts you gave the impression that you had become a convert to the seventh-day adventist church.

have you?

only the papacy makes the claim about peter that you made above.

[Woody]

Aubrey ... I know you are trying to be kind and not include ALL of his errors. But I am inclined to point out more. He uses the contraction "don't" in his edited writings. I assume that the contraction (') means that there is something there that is not in the word. Perhaps it is just missing? But it clearly does not 'exist'.

Anyways ... this is what the dictionary that he likes to use ... states about "don't":

"It does not occur in edited writing or formal speech."

And as we can see ... at the bottom of his post ... he indicated that it was "edited". This is clearly an error and a misuse of the English language.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Steve B said:

Quote:

That person then who comitts abortion is worshiping Satan by destroying life.

Thank you for your candid opinion.

[BobRyan]

Thanks Bob! May the good Lord richly bless you for sticking to what is right even though the heavens fall!

Nic - thank you for those kind words.

And blessings to all in this Advent season.

What a great time to be AdventISTs.

How blessed ALL mankind is - that Mary did not have an abortion.

in Christ,

Bob

[Steve Billiter]

redwood, what is your point? What has editing or "don't" have to do with anything? You are not clear which is far from surprising.

You said:

Aubrey ... I know you are trying to be kind and not include ALL of his errors. But I am inclined to point out more. He uses the contraction "don't" in his edited writings. I assume that the contraction (') means that there is something there that is not in the word. Perhaps it is just missing? But it clearly does not 'exist'.

Anyways ... this is what the dictionary that he likes to use ... states about "don't":

"It does not occur in edited writing or formal speech."

And as we can see ... at the bottom of his post ... he indicated that it was "edited". This is clearly an error and a misuse of the English language.

[BobRyan]

nic, in one of your posts you gave the impression that you had become a convert to the seventh-day adventist church.

have you?

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

nic, in one of your posts you gave the impression that you had become a convert to the seventh-day adventist church.

have you?

And if so - are you THIS kind of Adventist?...

The kind we find there willing to oppose abortion even as far back as the 1800's?

[Woody]

lend me yur ear ...

He that hath an ear ... let him hear.

[BobRyan]

No extra ears available for lending here - but I am happy to read posts!

[teresaq]

Steve B said:

Quote:

That person then who comitts abortion is worshiping Satan by destroying life.

Thank you for your candid opinion.

i would add that those who are using satans methods and have his thinking are also worshipping satan.

Joh 16:2... yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.

[Steve Billiter]

Originally Posted By: rudywoofs

Steve B said:

Quote:

That person then who comitts abortion is worshiping Satan by destroying life.

Thank you for your candid opinion.

i would add that those who are using satans methods and have his thinking are also worshipping satan.

Joh 16:2... yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.

Agreed, all sin is serving satan

[BobRyan]

bob do you agree with this statement?

Quote:

nic: When Saint Peter acted against what was right, Paul reprimanded him publicly. Peter was the maximum authority of the nascent Christian church, yet a man inferior in position in the church reprimanded him.

was "saint" peter the authority of the church?

[Woody]

Quote:

Joh 16:2... yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.

Wow. If that wasn't prophetic. We have been told by our prophet that in the end times ... this would happen. And we are seeing prophecy being fulfilled before our very eyes.

[BobRyan]

Given that this subject thread is about killing the unborn - and now we have people who claim that all that killing is going to be thought of as a service to God -- it it as if the unborn had some kind of news network and are talking to each other about the day coming when people think it is serving God to kill the unborn.

Kind of odd - that new game being played here.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

bob do you agree with this statement?

Quote:

nic: When Saint Peter acted against what was right, Paul reprimanded him publicly. Peter was the maximum authority of the nascent Christian church, yet a man inferior in position in the church reprimanded him.

was "saint" peter the authority of the church?

Notice that Peter James and John are listed - but James is listed first.

...

do you see the statement in red as papal? would you ignore that if the person has the same agenda as yourself?

[BobRyan]

I like staying with scripture and on topic myself.

But that is just me.

[Steve Billiter]

Very well, shall we begin? I have made several corrections to your posts above. You will see the corrections in red type. In one section, I changed the word you used "comitt" to commit, as "comitt" is not in the dictionary. I assumed you meant the word: commit.

Originally Posted By: Steve Billiter

Aubrey, your word "axiomative" does not exist, at least not yet, but I think your meaning is clear according to the definition of "axiom."

Quick definitions (axiom)

▸ noun: (logic) a proposition that is not susceptible of proof or disproof; its truth is assumed to be self-evident

▸ noun: a saying that widely accepted on its own merits

God's position on everything, to me,[space](I'm not saying I know all of His will) is clearly defined. It is up to us to figure out what that means, if we care to.[space]Pride will cause some to exalt their own opinions over the expressed will of God. It also becomes quite problematic for the unconverted to understand God's word. In fact, it really is impossible to know it to a saving result.

1Co 2:14 But the natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

All of us influence others either for good or for evil; there is no middle ground unless one remains silent on an issue.

Those who love their own opinions will seek to persuade others of that. And those who know God's word should teach others, and stand for truth.

Because it also comes down to this:

Mat 12:37 For by your words you shall be justified, and by your words you shall be condemned.

Pro 23:7 For as he thinks in his heart, so is he.

Dan 12:3 And they that are wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars forever and ever.

Edited by Steve Billiter (Today at 08:23 AM)

Exo 21:22 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that there is a miscarriage, and yet no mischief follows: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.

Exo 21:23 And if any mischief follows, then you shall give life for life,

I believe it's saying in case of miscarriage the penalty is as the husband or judge determines. "Mischief" that may follow that, appears to be the death of the mother and then it becomes a matter of the death penalty. This appears to be not an intentional abortion, but irresponsible violent actions.

_________________________

Steve Billiter

A deformed child deserves a chance at life just like everyone else. Only God has the prerogative to say whether one will live or die.

The woman's false argument that it is her body, and she can choose to abort a life that is not even her own is not true either.[space]God is the owner of all created works including humans and angels. We do not even own ourselves. We are His through creation and redemption. As I said before, fornication is the major cause of unwanted pregnancies and abortions.

The best way to prevent abortion is the teach the gospel, and God's laws. Strict obedience to the command not to commit adultery, which is all sex outside of marriage, will stop all abortions except accidental ones and those where the mothers life is in mortal danger.

Abortions done because of fornication just perpetuates that sin and the sin of murder, by killing the unborn. Those who take part in abortion are doing the work of the enemy, no matter their "justifications."

1Pe 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walks about, seeking whom he may devour:

Satan is a cruel oppressor. His object is to destroy all human life. Abortion is one way he inspires his human agents to worship him as he certainly is the god of this world. When one obeys Satan, what is he doing?

Exo 20:3 You shall have no other gods before me.

Mat 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other.

That person then who commits abortion is worshiping Satan by destroying life. That is what Adam and Eve did when they disobeyed God by eating the forbidden fruit; they chose Satan over God, which is what all sin is. It is the transgression of the law.

It matters not whether one even believes Satan exists as he would much prefer it if people doubt he does exist, because that means they deny the Bible.

Choose life, not death!

Edited by Steve Billiter (Today at 09:19 AM)

_________________________

Steve Billiter

Nic is correct, neither he, nor I, nor anyone else to my knowledge is judging in the aspect you (Theresa, I believe)[space]mention.

If one were to judge in the manner you speak of, then one would say," If you commit abortion you are going to hell," or any other like condemnatory words addressed at a person.

The concept of "judging" is little understood by professing Christians.

John 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

Our work is not to pronounce sentence. Judging can also mean taking action for the good and the right.[space]My judgment upon abortion is based on God's word, the Holy Spirit's impressions to me, and common sense. Is my judgment righteous? I believe so. Do I understand this issue perfectly? No, only God does.

Christians are enjoined to call sin by its right name without condemning the person. Those words spoken in truth can work in conjunction with the Holy Spirit to bring conviction of sin and the need for repentance to the soul.[space]Then it becomes a savor of life upon life.

Teaching Bible principles only, is not condemning unless one does something similar in pronouncing sentence on someone when that is not anyone's work.

Usually one who engages in calling others "Bible Thumpers" is analogous to one who just says 'I will do what I want regardless of what God says." So the one who is upholding God's word becomes a "Bible Thumper" to the one who rejects God's word.

That occurs because personal attacks become the norm for those who reject truth because they cannot defend a position from God's Word. So it becomes a legitimate defense mechanism in their own eyes. The danger for those who reject any of God's truth is they will set themselves up for advanced delusions. This should be avoided at all costs.

Edited by Steve Billiter (Today at 09:59 AM)

_________________________

Steve Billiter

Aubrey, sadly you seem to feel the need to split hairs and attack me because you perceived that I attacked you. I could make the spelling and spacing more perfect if I had the time, but I don't.I thought you might be appreciative of me telling you of your use of a word that doesn't exist.If you have some opinions upon the Bible and abortion we can discuss them, but I will decline to go down your road. God Bless! Steve