Is the Adventist Church Really Pro-life?

[teresaq]

But that is just me.

and i resist being manipulated into positions contrary to our church by those who have not accepted sda beliefs and doctrines. but that is just me.

[teresaq]

I thought you might be appreciative of me telling you of your use of a word that doesn't exist.

therein is the error. she posted to share her thought, not to be corrected on something inconsequential. :)

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Steve Billiter

I thought you might be appreciative of me telling you of your use of a word that doesn't exist.

therein is the error. she posted to share her thought, not to be corrected on something inconsequential.

TU

[oldsailor29]

To my knowledge' date=' quotation marks around a word is not evidence of it not being a word. Quotation marks are used for emphasis and quotes obviously but an emphasis upon being a non-word seems a bit contradictory.

/quote']

Quoting a word which is misused or incorrect is one way to point it out, but the accepted way to point out errors in print is to write (sic) after the error.

"Sic" is Latin for "thus". "Editors use it when citing a reference to inform a reader that the spelling or grammatical mistakes in the reference are to be attributed to the original source. Just another way of saying, "Don't blame me." (Robert del Valle, Detroit USA)

But on the subject, the female reproductive organs are the pattern for the temple. The womb is the most holy place, from which creation occurs. There is only one high priest allowed in the most holy place. If another person enters, the most holy place is soiled and must be cleansed. The only holy creation which comes from the most holy place of a woman is that which comes from her husband. If there is any other creation coming from her womb, it should be cleansed.

[Outta Here]

Aubrey, sadly you seem to feel the need to split hairs and attack me because you perceived that I attacked you. I could make the spelling and spacing more perfect if I had the time, but I don't.I thought you might be appreciative of me telling you of your use of a word that doesn't exist.If you have some opinions upon the Bible and abortion we can discuss them, but I will decline to go down your road. God Bless! Steve

Steve,

Wherein have I made a personal attack? You corrected a post I made earlier. You veered off the topic by doing that. You took the liberty of correcting my choice of word in a public forum. I assumed that meant that you would like me to correct you publically for the mistakes you make in your posts. You opened the door for me to do so when, after I told you I'd assumed that was what you wanted, you said you would appreciate being corrected. Then, I offered you the immediate corrections I could see in a quick proof-read of your posts made after the one in which you'd corrected me. If you feel that I am doing anything that you did not tell me you'd be appreciative of having me do, then by all means I will not walk down that road on which you requested I accompany you. If you are ready to resume the discussions in this thread without the public corrections of errors in posts, then I am willing to do so as well.

Godspeed,

Aubrey

[oldsailor29]

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

That's an interesting idea, oldsailor.

[BobRyan]

nic, in one of your posts you gave the impression that you had become a convert to the seventh-day adventist church.

have you?

[BobRyan]

The issue of slavery in the 1800's was essentially the controversy about the "value of human life" the same as we see today with the idea of murdering children prior to their birth. (In many cases JUST prior to it - given that 5 and 6 month old unborn children are known to survive if taken care of)

But (innexplicably) some argue that they are free to murder children as long as those children are not yet breathing fresh air outside the womb.

Ex 21:22-23 here we see the rule in the case of someone who kills a child that is not yet breathing fresh air outside of the womb. The rule stated is "a life for a life". That person was to die.

I have to "imagine" that those same people who "could not see" the problem with killing the unborn children prior to bringing up this inconvenient detail - will continue to "not see" - but I think the unbiased objective reader will find this text "instructive".

Here then is condemnation even of unintentional abortion in scripture.

Does Ellen White agree with the Bible on this point?

If the father would become acquainted with physical law, he might better understand his obligations and responsibilities. He would see that he had been guilty of almost murdering his children, by suffering so many burdens to come upon the mother, compelling her to labor beyond her strength before their birth, in order to obtain means to leave for them. {2SM 429-430}

Those who sided with slavery - instead of the "value of human life" turned out to be on the "Wrong side of history".

Today as we see the exact same moral principle surface in the case of abortion -- the pro-life group take the right side of human history and the pro-death side once again - take the wrong side.

But you would hope that in the case of Adventists - the points listed above would be "instructive".

in Christ,

Bob

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Bob Ryan wrote:

Quote:

Ex 21:22-23 here we see the rule in the case of someone who kills a child that is not yet breathing fresh air outside of the womb. The rule stated is "a life for a life". That person was to die.

Do you advocate the murder of a physician who performs an abortion?

[teresaq]

Quote:

Few are aware of the fearful extent to which this nefarious business, this worse than devilish practice, is carried on in all classes of society! Many a woman determines that she will not become a mother, and subjects herself to the vilest treatment, committing the basest crime to carry out her purpose. And many a man, who has as many children as he can support, instead of restraining his passions, aids in the destruction of the babes he has begotten. The sin lies at the door of both parents in equal measure; for the father, although he may not always aid in the murder, is always accessory to it, in that he induces, and sometimes even forces upon the mother the condition which he knows will lead to the commission of the crime.

James White. Solemn Appeal (Battle Creek, Michigan: Stem Press, 1870), 100.

It would appear obvious to the unbiased objective reader that the link and the quote above are examples of early SDA pioneers taking such clear and obvious positions on this topic that both Adventist and non-Adventist Christians can quickly see and agree with the point made.

in Christ,

Bob

the unbiased objective reader would check out the source to see if it is in context AND if that particular paragraph had been written by james white. you obviously havent.

[Nic Samojluk]

Nic is correct, neither him, nor I, nor anyone else to my knowledge is judging in the aspect you (Theresa I believe)mention.

If one was to judge in the manner you speak of, then one would say," If you commit abortion you are going to hell." Or any other like condemnatory words addressed at a person.

The concept of "judging" is little understood by professing Christians.

John 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

Our work is not to pronounce sentence. Judging can also mean taking action for the good and the right.My judgment upon abortion is based on God's word, the Holy Spirit's impressions to me, and common sense. Is my judgment righteous? I believe so. Do I understand this issue perfectly? No, only God does.

Christians are enjoined to call sin by its right name without condemning the person. Those words spoken in truth can work in conjunction with the Holy Spirit to bring conviction of sin and the need for repentance to the soul.Then it becomes a savor of life upon life.

Teaching Bible principles only, is not condemning unless one does something similar in pronouncing sentence on someone when that is not anyones work.

Usually one who engages in calling others "Bible Thumpers" is analogous to just saying 'I will do what I want regardless of what God says." So the one who is upholding God's word becomes a "Bible Thumper" to the one who rejects God's word.

That occurs because personal attacks become the norm for those who reject truth because they cannot defend a position from God's Word, so it becomes a legitimate defense mechanism in their own eyes. The danger for those who reject any of God's truth is they will set themselves up for advanced delusions. This should be avoided at all costs.

[teresaq]

No doubt! What the Bible condemns is not the act of judging, but rather the act of judging incorrectly. Thanks for reminding us of this Bible text which explains this so clearly:

Quote:

Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

[Nic Samojluk]

My credentials for what?

This is an Internet forum. I need not disclose my real name. The administrators know who I am.

Rudywoofs,

You are correct: “This is an Internet forum,” and you don’t need any credentials nor any higher degrees to be able to post in this forum. NEITHER DO I! So why are you demanding that I verify the legitimacy of my credentials?

If you have the right to register your opinions and arguments on this forum without any verification of credentials, why are you denying the same right to me? Did I at any time suggest that readers should believe my arguments because I hold a Ph. D. degree? Did I not rather appeal to the Bible, to the writings of the early Adventist pioneers, and to our common sense?

Doesn’t this inconsistency of yours bother you? Can you please look in the mirror and admit that you have dealt unfairly with me? Besides, why are you hiding behind a mask? Why can’t you tell us who you are? It is very easy for you to throw stones and run for cover behind a wall. This way none of those who know you will suspect that you are the one doing this!

And since I am at this, let me share with you why I chose to get my Ph.D. degree. I was 65 at the time; I had my own real estate business; and I had no hopes of using my degree for anything else but to do something for the unborn and for my church. I had submitted several articles in defense of the pro-life position on abortion without success. Every time I tried, I got the same response: “The topic is very controversial.” In the mean time our Adventist magazines were publishing pro-abortion articles without any hindrance.

One day, as I was leafing through “Spectrum” and “Adventist Today” I noticed that every published article was preceded by the following formula: John Doe, Ph.D. The thought crossed my mind: Perhaps this is the reason my articles are not accepted. Right there and then I decided to get my Ph.D. with the hope of having a better chance to get published.

I hope this helps!

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: rudywoofs

My credentials for what?

This is an Internet forum. I need not disclose my real name. The administrators know who I am.

Rudywoofs,

If you have the right to register your opinions and arguments on this forum without any verification of credentials, why are you denying the same right to me? Did I at any time suggest that readers should believe my arguments because I hold a Ph. D. degree? Did I not rather appeal to the Bible, to the writings of the early Adventist pioneers, and to our common sense?

Doesn’t this inconsistency of yours bother you? Can you please look in the mirror and admit that you have dealt unfairly with me? Besides, why are you hiding behind a mask? Why can’t you tell us who you are? It is very easy for you to throw stones and run for cover behind a wall. This way none of those who know you will suspect that you are the one doing this!

http://clubadventist.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/307955.html

[Steve Billiter]

Originally Posted By: rudywoofs

My credentials for what?

This is an Internet forum. I need not disclose my real name. The administrators know who I am.

Rudywoofs,

You are correct: “This is an Internet forum,” and you don’t need any credentials nor any higher degrees to be able to post in this forum. NEITHER DO I! So why are you demanding that I verify the legitimacy of my credentials?

If you have the right to register your opinions and arguments on this forum without any verification of credentials, why are you denying the same right to me? Did I at any time suggest that readers should believe my arguments because I hold a Ph. D. degree? Did I not rather appeal to the Bible, to the writings of the early Adventist pioneers, and to our common sense?

Doesn’t this inconsistency of yours bother you? Can you please look in the mirror and admit that you have dealt unfairly with me? Besides, why are you hiding behind a mask? Why can’t you tell us who you are? It is very easy for you to throw stones and run for cover behind a wall. This way none of those who know you will suspect that you are the one doing this!

And since I am at this, let me share with you why I chose to get my Ph.D. degree. I was 65 at the time; I had my own real estate business; and I had no hopes of using my degree for anything else but to do something for the unborn and for my church. I had submitted several articles in defense of the pro-life position on abortion without success. Every time I tried, I got the same response: “The topic is very controversial.” In the mean time our Adventist magazines were publishing pro-abortion articles without any hindrance.

One day, as I was leafing through “Spectrum” and “Adventist Today” I noticed that every published article was preceded by the following formula: John Doe, Ph.D. The thought crossed my mind: Perhaps this is the reason my articles are not accepted. Right there and then I decided to get my Ph.D. with the hope of having a better chance to get published.

I hope this helps!

Hi Nic, I have some thoughts on this. These Adventist publications you speak of have a liberal slant to one degree or another, especially Spectrum and Adventist today. These publications will not be inclined to accept just about anything thats solidly rooted in the Bible;abortion and homosexuality for sure, along with correct soteriology. So one will encounter bias towards certain views no matter the educational status of the writer.

This text comes to mind:

Isa 59:14 And justice is turned back, and righteousness stands afar off: for truth is fallen in the street, and equity cannot enter.

You probably already publish your views on the web, and writing a book could be an option as well as searching for other venues that will accept your papers.

I personally can attest to the fact that I've had many conversations with Adventist theologians and others with degrees that are simply lost in space about critical bible doctrines and appear to be having theological nightmares.

Ellen White agrees that Bible understanding is attained through the Holy Spirit:

Many a portion of Scripture which learned men pronounce a mystery, or pass over as unimportant, is full of comfort and instruction to him who has been taught in the school of Christ. One reason why many theologians have no clearer understanding of God's word is, they close their eyes to truths which they do not wish to practice. As understanding of Bible truth depends not so much on the power of intellect brought to the search as on the singleness of purpose, the earnest longing after righteousness. {GC 599.2}

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

So why are you demanding that I verify the legitimacy of my credentials?

At the outset of your remarks you said you had done your PhD on this subject. That implied greater than normal knowledge on your part.

Did you defend your dissertation in front of a panel of professors? I hope so....that's important to do.

[Nic Samojluk]

If you read carefully you will note I referred to people that would need to be forever institutionalized their entire lives in order to live due to their gross deformities. Are you willing to foot the cost for those individuals?

[Nic Samojluk]

nic, in one of your posts you gave the impression that you had become a convert to the seventh-day adventist church. have you?

only the papacy makes the claim about peter that you made above.

The answer is "No." I am a second generation Adventist. My parents were of the Orthodox faith until they decided to join the Adventist community.

Regarding the Apostle Peter, the Bible depicts him as the leader of the nascent christian church. Saint Paul was not even an apostle in the strictest sense.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Nic wrote:

Quote:

The Bible commands that we judge right, not that we refrain from judging.

Matthew 7:1,2 says "Do not judge, or you too will be judged, and with the same measure you use, it will be measured to you."

[Nic Samojluk]

Nic - thank you for those kind words.

And blessings to all in this Advent season.

What a great time to be AdventISTs.

How blessed ALL mankind is - that Mary did not have an abortion.

in Christ,

Bob

This reminds me of a debate I had with an well known and highly respected Adventist physician. I asked him whether he would have offered an abortion for Mary, the mother of Jesus. I couldn't believe when he answered: "I wouldn't have hesitated a moment."

[Nic Samojluk]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

nic, in one of your posts you gave the impression that you had become a convert to the seventh-day adventist church.

have you?

And if so - are you THIS kind of Adventist?

http://clubadventist.com/forum/ubbthread...html#Post311745

The kind we find there willing to oppose abortion even as far back as the 1800's?

Perhaps a small sampling from that link will help to illustrate the POV of early SDA pioneers.

Quote:

James White

Quote:

Few are aware of the fearful extent to which this nefarious business, this worse than devilish practice, is carried on in all classes of society! Many a woman determines that she will not become a mother, and subjects herself to the vilest treatment, committing the basest crime to carry out her purpose. And many a man, who has as many children as he can support, instead of restraining his passions, aids in the destruction of the babes he has begotten. The sin lies at the door of both parents in equal measure; for the father, although he may not always aid in the murder, is always accessory to it, in that he induces, and sometimes even forces upon the mother the condition which he knows will lead to the commission of the crime.

James White. Solemn Appeal (Battle Creek, Michigan: Stem Press, 1870), 100.

in Christ,

Bob

Yes! So help me God!

[Nic Samojluk]

But on the subject, the female reproductive organs are the pattern for the temple. The womb is the most holy place, from which creation occurs. There is only one high priest allowed in the most holy place. If another person enters, the most holy place is soiled and must be cleansed. The only holy creation which comes from the most holy place of a woman is that which comes from her husband. If there is any other creation coming from her womb, it should be cleansed.

That's a clever way of justifying murder. I haven't heard this before. You seem to bery original in defending the indefensible!

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Nic wrote:

Quote:

The Bible commands that we judge right, not that we refrain from judging.

Matthew 7:1,2 says "Do not judge, or you too will be judged, and with the same measure you use, it will be measured to you."

bump

[Nic Samojluk]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

Quote:

Few are aware of the fearful extent to which this nefarious business, this worse than devilish practice, is carried on in all classes of society! Many a woman determines that she will not become a mother, and subjects herself to the vilest treatment, committing the basest crime to carry out her purpose. And many a man, who has as many children as he can support, instead of restraining his passions, aids in the destruction of the babes he has begotten. The sin lies at the door of both parents in equal measure; for the father, although he may not always aid in the murder, is always accessory to it, in that he induces, and sometimes even forces upon the mother the condition which he knows will lead to the commission of the crime.

James White. Solemn Appeal (Battle Creek, Michigan: Stem Press, 1870), 100.

It would appear obvious to the unbiased objective reader that the link and the quote above are examples of early SDA pioneers taking such clear and obvious positions on this topic that both Adventist and non-Adventist Christians can quickly see and agree with the point made.

in Christ,

Bob

the unbiased objective reader would check out the source to see if it is in context AND if that particular paragraph had been written by james white. you obviously havent.

But I have and I did document the reference!