Is the Adventist Church Really Pro-life?

[Steve Billiter]

thanks, John. I also wrote William Fagal at the White Estate for info on the pioneers position on abortion. I have some pioneer writings in my EGW software but I'm unsure what syntax to use for searches. Any suggestions?

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

I wrote for the Review ... it was published ...

What was the title and date of the piece?

It was published earlier this year. But I will not be tricked into exposing my identity on this forum. I've received threats by some members here ... regarding what they would do to me if they found out my name. So, telling you the title and date would expose my name. No can do. I may be headed to Hell ... but I ain't stupid.

[Woody]

Quote:

Why don't you just post your article on here sans your real name, that we we can review it? Why, you never know, we may all learn something beneficial from your pearls of wisdom!

You can get my pearls of wisdom each and every day here. So, far it has not penetrated your cranium. I doubt one additional post would help.

[Steve Billiter]

But Pam, maybe its an article on abortion and we can all be enlightened!

[John317]

It was published earlier this year.

That's great. I'm happy for you.

Quote:

I've received threats by some members here ... regarding what they would do to me if they found out my name.

With moderator's hat on, and speaking generally to anyone who receives threats:

If you have proof of this, you should contact moderators or administrators. I suggest you give such proof to Tom Whitmore, an SDA attorney and one of the moderators. Harassment and threats of physical harm are against the rules and if shown to be true would be taken very seriously.

[Steve Billiter]

Originally Posted By: rudywoofs

Since you didn't even have to defend your dissertation, your PhD degree and dissertation are basically worthless. I'm sorry to tell you that. I know you went to a lot of work doing research to try and bolster your idea. But it was doomed from the start because you began it with prejudice. The school advisor you had should have told you that.

Rudiwoofs,

What you are saying applies to traditional Ph.D. programs where you are required to personally attend to lectures by university professors. Mine was an online program. Are you familiar with the online programs where there are no such requirements? The entire Ph. D. program I signed up for was monitored by the accreditation committee.

Are you suggesting that the accreditation committee overlooked something which according to you renders my work worthless? Why don’t you bring this up with the Andrew Jackson University and the accreditation committee which supervised the entire Ph.D. program? You are wasting your time with me. Of course, if you have nothing else to do then it’s your choice. I will address the balance of your comments in my next posting.

Nic, this unwarranted attack upon your scholastic credentials is certainly beside the point of this whole discussion. Sadly, some feel all the evidence they have are just personal attacks that mean nothing in regards to to the immorality of baby killing. It was certainly your choice to become generally educated with the focus you chose; and how you use that is up to you.

Perhaps Pam is willing to take her cute little OFF TOPIC sign, hold it up, and face the mirror!

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

[John317]

I also wrote William Fagal at the White Estate for info on the pioneers position on abortion. I have some pioneer writings in my EGW software but I'm unsure what syntax to use for searches. Any suggestions?

Let me check on this and get back to you.

[teresaq]

to put it mildly.

see

http://clubadventist.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/312267.html#Post312267

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

The above paragraph was written by E. P. Paul, a physician. The "murder" and "crimes" spoken of refer to the fact that the man would often satisfy his sexual passions at the expense of the wife's health, making her pregnant year in and year out, and consequently babies were not infrequently still-born.

James and Ellen White were not the only ones who contributed to the writings found in the Solemn Appeal. Ellen White's articles in the Appeal are clearly labeled as such.

This information was given to me five minutes ago by the Ellen White Estate in Loma Linda. [/quote'][CD-ROM Editor's Note: This work is included in James White's collection, though he did not author much of it. He served as compiler. Ellen White wrote the five main sections that are also in her "Solemn Appeal." Other authors include E. P. Miller, M.D., and O. S. Fowler.]

[Nic Samojluk]

Originally Posted By: Nic Samojluk

But I have and I did document the reference!

the correct title for the pamphlet is

Quote:

A Solemn Appeal RELATIVE TO SOLITARY VICE, AND THE ABUSES AND EXCESSES OF THE MARRIAGE RELATION.

EDITED BYELDER JAMES WHITE.

james white did not write the pamphlet, he just edited it. but you would lead people to believe he did write it and that it was his sentiments.

from nics "dissertation"

Quote:

It might be proper to start this chapter with a brief description of the SDA pioneer’s attitude towards Abortion. This will take us back to 1870, ... What was the Seventh-day Adventist forefathers’ attitude towards the destruction of human life prior to natural birth? At that time, one of the most prolific spokesmen for the nascent Adventist movement was James White, the founder of the SDA publishing work and also president of the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists. Here is what he declared; ...

The Opinion of James White.

(quoted above)....

Do these statements by James White, the founder of the SDA publishing work and president of the SDA church sound like pro-life statements? [/quote']here you state uncategorically that it was james white who wrote this.

james white did not write the paragraph in question. therefore we do not know his true sentiments.

Teresa,

Thanks! This is first valid critique which addresses my research instead of beating around the bushes like Rudiwoofs has been doing. I really appreciate the time you have taken to discover what, on the surface, seem to be a valid objection. I hope you do not stop with what you seem to have discovered. I need all the help I can get to correct all the hidden errors that might exist in my investigation. I will take the first opportunity I have to verify that what you are alleging is correct. I will probably do this after Christmas.

The main aim of my research was to discover whether the truth about the contradictory assertions made both by Jan Paulson of the General conference and James Walters from Loma Linda University. I concluded that Walters was right in his assertion that the Adventist Church was pro-choice instead of being pro-life. Do you think that your discovery would alter the veracity of my conclusion?

You state that “we do not know his [White’s] true sentiments” regarding abortion. We have the statements about abortion by many other early Adventist condemning the practice of abortion in the strongest possible terms, we know that abortion was illegal at the time, we know that society did consider abortion to be immoral then, and James White published this pamphlet. Are you really wondering about James’ sentiments about abortion?

[Steve Billiter]

Very cute, maybe i should get some signs!

[Woody]

I've seen plenty of signs. And I don't like what they are pointing to.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Originally Posted By: rudywoofs

Very cute, maybe i should get some signs!

[Nic Samojluk]

I am familiar with online PhD programs. Accredited ones will require you to defend your dissertation in some manner. Perhaps this is one reason the accreditation was not granted to that particular institution.

I would have also suggested you take a statistics class. Your "Statistics" section only provided percentages. That's not sound statistical reasoning, IMHO.

Rudiwoofs,

I don’t think so! As I stated before, I learned that the Ph.D. program in religion would be discontinued by the time I started writing the dissertation. Since I had no plans for using the degree for anything else but my ability to get published on the issue of abortion in Adventist media, I did not pay much attention to the issue of accreditation.

I knew that the program was being phased out under the supervision of the accreditation committee, which meant to me that all I needed to do was to comply with all requirements imposed on me. Everything was done online, and I took all my tests under the supervision of, Janice Little, the lady in charge of the Heritage Room located in the LLU library.

Regarding statistics, I want you to know that I took all my statistic classes required for a Ph.D. program from the University of Riverside, California. When I wrote the dissertation, I felt that the data did not require the use of very sophisticated statistic treatment, since the evidence seemed to support my hypothesis pretty well. I am planning to let future researchers to continue the investigation I started.

My work may not be perfect, but the evidence seem to support quite well the belief that the Adventist Church holds the pro-choice position on abortion and that this means the church has departed from the pro-life position of our early pioneers. And this should not surprise anybody, since this is true about most Christian denominations and about society in general.

If you have access to contrary evidence, please let me know. If you cannot produce contrary evidence to this basic conclusion of my investigation, then please stop beating around the bushes! Go to the heart of my research and give me some constructive criticism which would help me correct any errors which might invalidate the conclusions of my research. So far, you have provided none. The evidence is strong in support of my contention that the Adventist Church is not pro-life, but rather pro-choice.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

You said you wanted the degree to be able to become a published author. I have shown that your PhD degree is basically worthless since the program was not accredited, nor did you undergo a dissertation defense.

I consider your dissertation to be an invalid work for the above reasons. Your conclusions may very well be correct, but your trail to get there was wrong. If you are going to do something this time-consuming, do it right, or don't do it at all. Statistical analysis would have been helpful, rather than just using percentages. I felt your Pro and Con Arguments in the Appendix B were generally unprofessionally stated, as was the "Shouting from the Rooftop" and other sections as well. Your writing style needs to be polished; it lacks good grammar and spelling.

Teresaq and John317 found the error in your statement regarding James White. That's a grave error. For someone to be taken seriously in a subject, you must be exact and precise. I think you *tried* to be, but the fact remains, there is error. It rendered your hypothesis invalid.

I'm not going to take your dissertation and give it a thorough investigative treatment. I don't think it's worth my time, nor do I think it a worthwhile thesis as you are a biased individual in this field, as your Abstract highly demonstrates.

[Woody]

Well ... I do have to agree with you Rudywoofs. This is someone who did not recognize your signature "Pam" as being 'female'.

[doug yowell]

Originally Posted By: John317

If we are going to insist on focusing solely on who wrote A Solemn Appeal to the exclusion of all the other recorded sentiments by our SDA pioneers at least lets get the facts straight. A "Solemn Appeal" was compiled,edited,and published by James White in 1870. The particular quote under discussion was taken from a larger article written by E.P.Miller M.D. and was intentionally included by White in his publication. This quote IS speaking directly about abortion NOT continual pregnancies or still borns. Why? They are the first words written under the heading "Abortion" (p.100),and the following 3 paragraphs expand on the same theme in no uncertain words. For the sake of brevity; "Many a child lives to mature years,dwarfed and deformed in body... who might have been a model of beauty and strength... but for the attempts of his parents to destroy his life BEFORE HE WAS BORN" (p.101).If anyone had bothered to actually read the article in question this discussion would be moot.Dr. Miller's much larger article ia immediately preceded and proceded by pieces written by Ellen White. The question of whether James White agreed with Dr. Miller on his strong abhorence of abortion does not need a Ph.D to answer. Common sense and the obvious should suffice.But if those are not an option why not observe what he himself wrote about the importance of Miller's contribution, in the preface of the document?(p.4) "And the extracts from the excellent work of E.P. Miller,M.D.,entitled,'The Cause of Exhausted Vitality,'are of NO LESS VALUE than the articles that precede them." Now,does anyone want to discuss the opinions of Kate Lindsey (pioneer of SDA nursing work),Uriah Smith(First Secretary of the General Conference and on the editorial staff of the "Review" nearly 50 years) J.N. Andrews(GC President,first SDA missionary),J.H. Kellogg(the White family physician,the most prominent physician the SDA church has ever produced)?

[doug yowell]

You said you wanted the degree to be able to become a published author. I have shown that your PhD degree is basically worthless since the program was not accredited, nor did you undergo a dissertation defense.

I consider your dissertation to be an invalid work for the above reasons. Your conclusions may very well be correct, but your trail to get there was wrong. If you are going to do something this time-consuming, do it right, or don't do it at all. Statistical analysis would have been helpful, rather than just using percentages.

Teresaq and John317 found the error in your statement regarding James White. That's a grave error. For someone to be taken seriously in a subject, you must be exact and precise. I think you *tried* to be, but the fact remains, there is error.

I'm not going to take your dissertation and give it a thorough investigative treatment. I don't think it's worth my time, nor do I think it a worthwhile thesis as you are a biased individual in this field.

Pam. What did you get your Ph.D in? How long did it take you to finish? Were you able to get it published?

[doug yowell]

Originally Posted By: rudywoofs

I am familiar with online PhD programs. Accredited ones will require you to defend your dissertation in some manner. Perhaps this is one reason the accreditation was not granted to that particular institution.

I would have also suggested you take a statistics class. Your "Statistics" section only provided percentages. That's not sound statistical reasoning, IMHO.

Rudiwoofs,

I don’t think so! As I stated before, I learned that the Ph.D. program in religion would be discontinued by the time I started writing the dissertation. Since I had no plans for using the degree for anything else but my ability to get published on the issue of abortion in Adventist media, I did not pay much attention to the issue of accreditation.

I knew that the program was being phased out under the supervision of the accreditation committee, which meant to me that all I needed to do was to comply with all requirements imposed on me. Everything was done online, and I took all my tests under the supervision of, Janice Little, the lady in charge of the Heritage Room located in the LLU library.

Regarding statistics, I want you to know that I took all my statistic classes required for a Ph.D. program from the University of Riverside, California. When I wrote the dissertation, I felt that the data did not require the use of very sophisticated statistic treatment, since the evidence seemed to support my hypothesis pretty well. I am planning to let future researchers to continue the investigation I started.

My work may not be perfect, but the evidence seem to support quite well the belief that the Adventist Church holds the pro-choice position on abortion and that this means the church has departed from the pro-life position of our early pioneers. And this should not surprise anybody, since this is true about most Christian denominations and about society in general.

If you have access to contrary evidence, please let me know. If you cannot produce contrary evidence to this basic conclusion of my investigation, then please stop beating around the bushes! Go to the heart of my research and give me some constructive criticism which would help me correct any errors which might invalidate the conclusions of my research. So far, you have provided none. The evidence is strong in support of my contention that the Adventist Church is not pro-life, but rather pro-choice.

RW,I think that even you would have to agree with that last sentence,right?

[Nic Samojluk]

A "hunch" is not prejudice. Your whole dissertation was based on prejudice.

Rudiwoofs,

It seems that you are afraid to deal with the real issue. In order to prevail you need to provide evidence that that the facts of the case do not match the conclusion I reached with my investigation. My research started with a dilemma: Was the Adventist Church pro-life or pro-choice. It couldn’t be both. My initial guess was that our church had adopted the pro-choice position on abortion. After wading through all that had been published on the topic in our main publications between 1970 and 2006, I felt that the facts did support my hypothesis.

So let me ask you again what I have asked you several times but you refuse to answer: Do the facts support my findings or not? This is what you need to deal with instead of beating around the bushes. Are you scared to face the facts? How come you are evading the heart of the matter? I know why you are doing this: Because you know very well that if you do, you will be embarrassed. You have chosen to distract readers from the main issue in this dispute: Whether I had arrived at the wrong conclusion.

So I will repeat what I have been asking you: Do you really believe that my initial guess was wrong? Do you believe that my conclusion is in error? Do you deny that the Adventist Church is pro-choice? Answer me at least once! If you do this, you may regain my respect and the respect of the participants in this blog!

[Steve Billiter]

Nic, I've already posted the official position of the SDA church. We are not pro-choice. What individual church members say and do may be different. I advise everyone to study the wheat and the tares parable in Matt. 13 and COL. PP. 70-76.

I see time and time again where some stumble over what a few or many say and do in the church and then they try to carry that across the board and apply it to the whole church.

Maybe its not so much what others are doing and saying but what are we doing? We should remain faithful in all things as the world collapses around us, because it is coming.

Ordeal of the Sifting Time.--Satan will work his miracles to deceive; he will set up his power as supreme. The church may appear as about to fall, but it does not fall. It remains, while the sinners in Zion will be sifted out--the chaff separated from the precious wheat. This is a terrible ordeal, but nevertheless it must take place. None but those who have been overcoming by the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony will be found with the loyal and true, without spot or stain of sin, without guile in their mouths. . . . The remnant that purify their souls by obeying the truth gather strength from the trying process, exhibiting the beauty of holiness amid the surrounding apostasy (Letter 55, 1886). {7BC 911.6}

The Conflict of the Ages Readathon starts Jan. 1, on Facebook. We start with PP and read one chapter a day for 10 months and all 5 books are read, and one can log in to the site and blog. It is led by Sandra Entermann, the Australian SDA recording artist. http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=185208356614&ref=share

http://midnightcrymedia.com/

(Powerful ministry relating prophecy to current events)

www.sharpeningthesword.net.

(New link to put EGW modules in E-sword)

[Nic Samojluk]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

The above paragraph was written by E. P. Paul, a physician. The "murder" and "crimes" spoken of refer to the fact that the man would often satisfy his sexual passions at the expense of the wife's health, making her pregnant year in and year out, and consequently babies were not infrequently still-born.

James and Ellen White were not the only ones who contributed to the writings found in the Solemn Appeal. Ellen White's articles in the Appeal are clearly labeled as such.

This information was given to me five minutes ago by the Ellen White Estate in Loma Linda. [/quote']

John,

I have decided that I will not rely on the interpretation of the White Estate. I will personally go to the Heritage Room and verify this in person ASAP.

You seem to have fallen for this Adventist pro-choice reading of this quotation. Tell me: Since when a woman’s submission to sexual abuse is equivalent to “the basest crime”? Notice that the main blame is placed on the woman,” She is referred to as determined “that she will not become a mother,” and “committing the basest crime” in order to “carry her purpose.” She is described as determined not become a mother and commits “the basest crime” in order to carry out “her purpose.”

The husband “aids in the destruction of the babes he has begotten,” he “may not always aid in the murder,” he is “always accessory to it,” and he “sometimes even forces upon the mother the condition which he knows will lead to the commission of the crime.”

Do you really believe that this passage is not referring to abortion? Please, read it again and again and tell me the truth! I do not see how anyone can reasonably conclude that the author of this writing had “still-born” in mind. Still born does not fit the phrase “commission of the crime;” still born does not match “the basest crime;” still born does not go with “may not always aid in the murder.”

[Nic Samojluk]

Originally Posted By: John317

I will verify this in person ASAP. This is the kind of factual errors I feel are helpful in our effort to search for the truth. I hope other factual mistakes are discovered by others.

[Nic Samojluk]

Originally Posted By: Nic Samojluk

Rudiwoofs,

What you are saying applies to traditional Ph.D. programs where you are required to personally attend to lectures by university professors. Mine was an online program. Are you familiar with the online programs where there are no such requirements? The entire Ph. D. program I signed up for was monitored by the accreditation committee.

Are you suggesting that the accreditation committee overlooked something which according to you renders my work worthless? Why don’t you bring this up with the Andrew Jackson University and the accreditation committee which supervised the entire Ph.D. program? You are wasting your time with me. Of course, if you have nothing else to do then it’s your choice. I will address the balance of your comments in my next posting.

[/quote']

Nic, this unwarranted attack upon your scholastic credentials is certainly beside the point of this whole discussion. Sadly, some feel all the evidence they have are just personal attacks that mean nothing in regards to to the immorality of baby killing. It was certainly your choice to become generally educated with the focus you chose; and how you use that is up to you.

Perhaps Pam is willing to take her cute little OFF TOPIC sign, hold it up, and face the mirror!

Thanks! I really appreciate your comments!