Is the Adventist Church Really Pro-life?

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

We need to judge laws by their fruits. Your way of thinking has given us 50 million of dead babies. Are you suggesting that those 50 miilion would have lived a life not worth living? Had those 50 million been allowed to live, most of them would be now working and providing for the support of the retiring generation. We reap what we sow. We killed an entire generation, and now our welfare, our social security, our medicare, and our healthcare programs are broke.

Sixty years ago, our country was the largest creditor in the world. Today we are the greatest debtor, and our largest creditor are communists. We reap what we sow!

Millions of people are out of work right now!!!! Where have you been??? Contrary to your belief, we did NOT kill off an entire generation. Abortion was NOT the cause of our welfare system (quite the contrary), nor was it the cause for social security, Medicare and healthcare problems in the United States. Land of mercy, listen to yourself.

[Nic Samojluk]

Job 29:13 The blessing of him that was ready to perish came upon me: and I caused the widow's heart to sing for joy.

[doug yowell]

Originally Posted By: Nic Samojluk

Did I ever say that the school was acredited? They had applied for acreditation' date=' and I signed into the program because at the time it was the only online program I was able to locate. You can read the details of the program and decide whether it matched the programs of other acredited schools.

The request for acreditation failed, and this is precisely the reason the program was discontinued.

it is the misleading thoughts expressed in similar posts that are being addressed.

Originally Posted By: Nic Samojluk

I spent an entire decade investigating this matter and my doctoral dissertation was entitled....

but i do see why it took 10 years.

there was so much to look through and so little to find.

like looking for a needle in a haystack, but come to find out there never was a needle in that particular haystack.[/quote']Teresa, how much of Nic's evidence were you able to debunk thru your extensive research on this subject? You asked for evidence of the views of the SDA pioneers. Why didn't you know that intuitively? Surely, common courtesy would require that you would respect the facts gathered even if you disagreed with their conclusions. Particularly if you have never even read his research.

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

Originally Posted By: Nic Samojluk

Did I ever say that the school was acredited? They had applied for acreditation' date=' and I signed into the program because at the time it was the only online program I was able to locate. You can read the details of the program and decide whether it matched the programs of other acredited schools.

The request for acreditation failed, and this is precisely the reason the program was discontinued.

it is the misleading thoughts expressed in similar posts that are being addressed.

Originally Posted By: Nic Samojluk

I spent an entire decade investigating this matter and my doctoral dissertation was entitled.... [/quote']

but i do see why it took 10 years.

there was so much to look through and so little to find.

like looking for a needle in a haystack, but come to find out there never was a needle in that particular haystack.

[doug yowell]

Of course, this argument over both the legitimacy of the degree itself and/or the legitimacy of the institution which bestowed it is nothing more than a red herring. It's the same tactic employed by evolution proponents in order to discredit their creationist opponents i.e. creationists are not "real" scientists". The facts of history cannot be denied and no doctorate is necessary to validate them. The Adventist church pioneers were outspoken and UNANAMOUS in their condemnation of abortion and unabashedly called it murder.There was no correction from the pen of the prophet and there were NO pro-choice advocates within the church. Each opinion recorded was based on a scriptural foundation. We have observed very clearly that there are some who reject this view on the basis that the Bible is "silent" on the issue,and that those who promote this "prolife" agenda (obviously including all the pioneers)do so because they haven't read the Bible.So,it appears to me that the real issue becomes the premise on which one makes their decision. Has God spoken to us or are we on our own? "Where the vision fails...". "There is a way which seems right to a man..."

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Doug Yowell wrote:

Quote:

...because they haven't read the Bible.

You are claiming that I have not read the Bible? Your claim is unjustified.

oh c'mon. Someone comes along professing to hold a PhD degree in a subject, and people listen up because of that. Refuting credentials is hardly a red herring, my good man.

[Outta Here]

General post--not directed to anyone in particular.

If God's position were so clearly defined for all to read and understand, then why spend precious time, money and effort trying to explain it?

In my opinion, this topic is so very similar to nearly every other discussion on these types of forums: it is opinion based on one's own subjective "axiomative" understanding of the Word.

[BobRyan]

General post--not directed to anyone in particular.

If God's position were so clearly defined for all to read and understand, then why spend precious time, money and effort trying to explain it?

In my opinion, this topic is so very similar to nearly every other discussion on these types of forums: it is opinion based on one's own subjective "axiomative" understanding of the Word.

That is what our Catholic friends say about all of Protestantism - as it turns out.

it is facination how often that idea surfaces here.

[Steve Billiter]

Amen Doug, thanks for your solid Biblical stand against the evil and sin of abortion. Let us continue to call sin by its right name so there is no excuse for confusion. Those who desire to deny the truth will do so regardless of even a "thus saith the LORD."

[Nic Samojluk]

I really would like you to understand that I am NOT for abortions except when a mother's life is at risk, or in the case of rape or incest. But I won't judge anyone's decision to have an abortion.

Pro-lifers need to understand that there would be a vast number of deformed children who would always need to be institutionalized and never live a normal life if not for abortion. Are you willing to take care of *those* children?

Abortion is a difficult decision for a woman to make. Don't make it any harder for her by Bible thumping her. Or forcing her to go to a back alley to obtain an abortion. At least have the compassion to let her go to a place, SDA or not, where a safe procedure can be done.

Rudywoofs,

1. The rape and incest cases: You see nothing wrong with killing the innocent baby, but let the rapist live. Is this the kind of justice you promote?

2. One of the first things Hitler did was to kill the deformed, the handicapped, the veteran amputees, and the unproductive members of society. Isn’t you philosophy encouraging the same? Why would you kill the handicapped that were not born but save those who were born? Are the diagnosis of malformations in the pre-born 100 percent fool proof? Is your aim a society with no handicapped human beings? Where do you differ from Hitler’s views?

3. You seem to have a great compassion for the pregnant woman determined to kill her unborn baby. How about compassion for the baby? Is your justice system equitable?

[BobRyan]

The issue of slavery in the 1800's was essentially the controversy about the "value of human life" the same as we see today with the idea of murdering children prior to their birth. (In many cases JUST prior to it - given that 5 and 6 month old unborn children are known to survive if taken care of)

But (innexplicably) some argue that they are free to murder children as long as those children are not yet breathing fresh air outside the womb.

Ex 21:22-23 here we see the rule in the case of someone who kills a child that is not yet breathing fresh air outside of the womb. The rule stated is "a life for a life". That person was to die.

I have to "imagine" that those same people who "could not see" the problem with killing the unborn children prior to bringing up this inconvenient detail - will continue to "not see" - but I think the unbiased objective reader will find this text "instructive".

Here then is condemnation even of unintentional abortion in scripture.

Does Ellen White agree with the Bible on this point?

If the father would become acquainted with physical law, he might better understand his obligations and responsibilities. He would see that he had been guilty of almost murdering his children, by suffering so many burdens to come upon the mother, compelling her to labor beyond her strength before their birth, in order to obtain means to leave for them. {2SM 429-430}

in Christ,

Bob

[Steve Billiter]

General post--not directed to anyone in particular.

If God's position were so clearly defined for all to read and understand, then why spend precious time, money and effort trying to explain it?

In my opinion, this topic is so very similar to nearly every other discussion on these types of forums: it is opinion based on one's own subjective "axiomative" understanding of the Word.

Aubrey, your word "axiomative" does not exist, at least not yet, but I think your meaning is clear according to the definition of "axiom."

Quick definitions (axiom)

▸ noun: (logic) a proposition that is not susceptible of proof or disproof; its truth is assumed to be self-evident

▸ noun: a saying that widely accepted on its own merits

Gods position on everything, to me,(I'm not saying I know all of His will) is clearly defined. It is up to us to figure out what that means, if we care to.Pride will cause some to exalt their own opinions over the expressed will of God. It also become quite problematic for the unconverted to understand God's word, in fact, it really is impossible to know it to a saving result.

1Co 2:14 But the natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

All of us influence others either for good or for evil; there is no middle ground unless one remains silent on an issue.

Those who love their own opinions will seek to persuade others of that. And those who know Gods word should teach others, and stand for truth.

Because it also comes down to this:

Mat 12:37 For by your words you shall be justified, and by your words you shall be condemned.

Pro 23:7 For as he thinks in his heart, so is he.

Dan 12:3 And they that are wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars forever and ever.

[Nic Samojluk]

Teresa,

You have a great concern for the hungry and destitute. This is commendable. Do you think that because there is great hunger in the world, that this justifies the extermination of 50 million innocent babies in the richest country of the world? This is how we Adventists got involved in the abortion business. The then president of the NAD announced that because there was much hunger in the world, we were leaning towards abortion.

You seem to believe that the life of children who are hungry is not worth living. Do you really understand hunger? Have you experienced it? If you have lived most of your life in America, I would almost bet that you have no idea what it means to be poor and hungry. This is where I can probably help you. I grew up in Paraguay and Argentina.

I do know what being poor means and what being hungry means. I lived in a thatched roof house and on rainy nights I had to stay awake all night because there was hardly a dry spot inside the house. I know what it means to have only one pair of pants and one pair of shoes. I know what it means to walk several kilometers to school barefooted carrying my shoes in my hands and wear them while in school for fear that they would wear thin before we could buy another pair. I know what it means to be forced to stay in bed until the sun would dry the only pair of pants which my mother had washed.

I know what it means to find no bread or food in the kitchen pantry and have to eat green onions for breakfast. I know what it means to have to survive on food provided to the children of the poor and destitute in school. I know what it means not to be able to buy or receive any toys and have to manufacture my own toys. I know what it means to have to make marbles from mud because we had no money to buy glass marbles.

Can you match this? Are you going to tell me that my life was not worth living and that my mother made a terrible mistake in not choosing to abort me? Think twice before you answer!

[Steve Billiter]

The issue of slavery in the 1800's was essentially the controversy about the "value of human life" the same as we see today with the idea of murdering children prior to their birth. (In many cases JUST prior to it - given that 5 and 6 month old unborn children are known to survive if taken care of)

But (innexplicably) some argue that they are free to murder children as long as those children are not yet breathing fresh air outside the womb.

Ex 21:22-23 here we see the rule in the case of someone who kills a child that is not yet breathing fresh air outside of the womb. The rule stated is "a life for a life". That person was to die.

I have to "imagine" that those same people who "could not see" the problem with killing the unborn children prior to bringing up this inconvenient detail - will continue to "not see" - but I think the unbiased objective reader will find this text "instructive".

Here then is condemnation even of unintentional abortion in scripture.

Does Ellen White agree with the Bible on this point?

If the father would become acquainted with physical law, he might better understand his obligations and responsibilities. He would see that he had been guilty of almost murdering his children, by suffering so many burdens to come upon the mother, compelling her to labor beyond her strength before their birth, in order to obtain means to leave for them. {2SM 429-430}

in Christ,

Bob

Exo 21:22 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that there is a miscarriage, and yet no mischief follows: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.

Exo 21:23 And if any mischief follows, then you shall give life for life,

I believe its saying in case of miscarriage the penalty is as the husband or judge determines. "Mischief" that may follow that, appears to be the death of the mother and then it become a matter of the death penalty. This appears to be not an intentional abortion, but irresponsible violent actions.

[Nic Samojluk]

it is the misleading thoughts expressed in similar posts that are being addressed.

Originally Posted By: Nic Samojluk

I spent an entire decade investigating this matter and my doctoral dissertation was entitled....

but i do see why it took 10 years.

there was so much to look through and so little to find.

like looking for a needle in a haystack, but come to find out there never was a needle in that particular haystack.

Can you please identify the misleading statementw which I am guilty of so that I can correct them? I started working on my dissertation the same day I signed up for the doctoral program.

The entire program of studies and investigation and writing of the dissertation consumed ten years of my life, but I did clarify that I was working part time. Did you miss that? Part time, because I had to work part time in my real estate business to support my family. Mine was the only business income we had at the time. I also had to mortgage my home in order to survive.

Please, identify the "needle in the haystack" you are referring to!

[BobRyan]

The attitude Towards Abortion Exhibited by the SDA Pioneers

James White

Quote:

Few are aware of the fearful extent to which this nefarious business, this worse than devilish practice, is carried on in all classes of society! Many a woman determines that she will not become a mother, and subjects herself to the vilest treatment, committing the basest crime to carry out her purpose. And many a man, who has as many children as he can support, instead of restraining his passions, aids in the destruction of the babes he has begotten. The sin lies at the door of both parents in equal measure; for the father, although he may not always aid in the murder, is always accessory to it, in that he induces, and sometimes even forces upon the mother the condition which he knows will lead to the commission of the crime.

James White. Solemn Appeal (Battle Creek, Michigan: Stem Press, 1870), 100.

John Harvey Kellogg

Quote:

The idea held by many that the destruction of fetal life is not a crime until after “quickening” has occurred is a gross and mischievous error. No change occurs in the developing human being at this period. The so-called period of “quickening” is simply the period at which the movements of the little one become sufficiently active and vigorous to attract the attention of the mother. Long before this, slight movements have been taking place, and from the very moment of conception, those processes have been in operation which result in the production of a fully developed human being from a mere jelly drop, a minute cell. As soon as this development begins, a new human being has come into existence--in embryo, it is true, but possessed of its own individuality, with its own future, its possibilities of joy, grief, success, failure, fame, and ignominy.

From this moment, it acquires the right to life, a right so sacred that in every land to violate it is to incur the penalty of death. How many murderers and murderesses have gone unpunished! None but God knows the full extent of this most heinous crime; but the Searcher of all hearts knows and remembers every one who has thus transgressed; and in the day of final reckoning, what will the verdict be? Murder? MURDER [sic], child murder, the slaughter of the innocents more cruel than Herod, more cold-blooded than the midnight assassin, more criminal than the man who slays his enemy--the most unnatural, the most inhuman, the most revolting of all crimes against human life. [3]

J.N. Andrews

Quote:

One of the most shocking, and yet one of the most prevalent sins of this generation, is the murder of unborn infants. Let those who think this a small sin, read Ps. 139:16. They will see that even the unborn child is written in God’s book. And they may be well assured that God will not pass unnoticed the murder of such children. [4]

John Todd

Quote:

As to guilt, I want all to know that, in the sight of God, it is willful murder. “The willful killing of a human being at any stage of its existence, is murder. It is quenching immortal existence, it is destroying what, in a few months or weeks, would bear God’s image: and if anyone thinks she can do it without the guilt of murder, she is greatly mistaken. The very remembrance of this guilt has often upset the reason, and by remorse, turned the doer into madness.” [5]

Uriah Smith

Quote:

You show me a church that fails to take a stand on political issues that involve moral principles, [6] and I’ll show you a church that is spineless, irrelevant, and morally bankrupt. . . . No issue is too controversial for us to address and honestly in pages of our church paper. [7]

Ellen G. White

Quote:

If the father would become acquainted with physical law, he might better understand his obligations and responsibilities. He would see that he had been guilty of almost murdering his children, by suffering so many burdens to come upon the mother, compelling her to labor beyond her strength before their birth, in order to obtain means to leave for them. 2SM 429-430

2. James White. Solemn Appeal (Battle Creek, Michigan: Stem Press, 1870), 100.

3. J.H. Kellogg. Man The Masterpiece (Battle Creek, Michigan: Modern Medicine Publishing Co., 1894), 424-425. For an electronic access to Dr. Kellogg’s opinion on abortion, click on the following Internet link provided by the University of Virginia Library: http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/etcbin/toc...;division=div1. Accessed on 25 Oct. 2006.

4. J.N. Andrews, Editor. “A Few Words Concerning a Great Sin” Advent Review and Sabbath Herald (Nov. 30, 1869): 184.

5. John Todd. “Fashionable Murder” Advent Review and Sabbath Herald (June 25, 1867): 29-30.

6. If no moral principles are excluded, then it follows that abortion is included here, unless one would dare to argue that abortion is not a moral issue.

7. Uriah Smith. Advent Review and Sabbath Herald. Quoted by P.A. Lorenz. Adventist For Life News, Vol. III, Issue 3. ( n.d.,Heritage Edition): 3.

[Nic Samojluk]

No, I'm saying that you don't have a legitimate PhD. Of course, anyone can do research. A college senior could have done the research you did. I can see you did a lot of work. That's good. But you started the whole thing in a prejudicial status. A good PhD research paper begins with a thesis and then develops the paper along that line of inquiry. *You* looked for certain things that you were hoping to find to bolster your position. You didn't provide pro and con arguments. A good researcher will look at all sides of the subject and draw conclusions from that. End of lesson.

Rudywoofs,

Did you read my dissertation? How much of it have you read? Did you read the chapter detailing the conclusions of my investigation? Here’s is the title of said chapter and the link for it in case you missed it: XIII. STATISTICAL ANALYSIS & CONCLUDING REMANKS http://sdaforum.com/page113.html . Please tell me specifically which of my conclusions are in error! Give me a detailed critique instead of a general derogatory statement.

Are you saying that only accredited schools can issue Ph.D. diplomas? Can you explain to me why would a university run the risk of granting me an illegitimate Ph.D. degree? Should you not bring this up with Andrew Jackson University? When I signed up for the doctoral program, I was aware that the school was not accredited.

Of course, I was hoping that their application for accreditation would be granted; nevertheless, when I was writing my dissertation I became aware that the program would not be accredited and that the program would be discontinued. I was encouraged by my advisors at the university to proceed and I was told that I had to finish by a certain date, before the program would cease to exist. I complied with every requirement for graduation, and you are telling me that degree is illegitimate?

You must bear in mind that my Ph.D. program was being monitored by the accreditation committee, and that the committee did allow the school to grant me and others the Ph.D. degree. Everything was kosher and done under the supervision of the accrediting committee. Please point to me where I went wrong! I do have a Ph.D. diploma which bears the stamp of a recognized university. The university has no longer authorized to grant Ph.D. degrees in religion, but the degree was granted while it was being monitored by an accrediting committee. I do not see anything illegitimate about this!

By the way, I am assuming that you do hold a legitimate Ph.D. degree from an accredited university. Can you tell us which one? Is it Harvard perhaps? Since you have asked me so many questions, I feel entitled to ask you one in return! Can you also tell us the topic of your dissertation, and the title of the books you have published? Since you are so hard on me, I would like to know a little bit about your credentials!

And can you identify yourself? What is your real name? Why are you hiding behind a pseudonym?

[BobRyan]

Exo 21:22 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that there is a miscarriage, and yet no mischief follows: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.

Exo 21:23 And if any mischief follows, then you shall give life for life,

I believe its saying in case of miscarriage the penalty is as the husband or judge determines. "Mischief" that may follow that, appears to be the death of the mother and then it become a matter of the death penalty. This appears to be not an intentional abortion, but irresponsible violent actions.

[Steve Billiter]

I really would like you to understand that I am NOT for abortions except when a mother's life is at risk, or in the case of rape or incest. But I won't judge anyone's decision to have an abortion.

Pro-lifers need to understand that there would be a vast number of deformed children who would always need to be institutionalized and never live a normal life if not for abortion. Are you willing to take care of *those* children?

Abortion is a difficult decision for a woman to make. Don't make it any harder for her by Bible thumping her. Or forcing her to go to a back alley to obtain an abortion. At least have the compassion to let her go to a place, SDA or not, where a safe procedure can be done.

A deformed child deserves a chance at life just like everyone else. Only God has the prerogative to say whether one will live or die.

The womans false argument that it is her body, and she can choose to abort a life that is not even her own is not true either.God is the owner of all created works including humans and angels. We do not even own ourselves, we are His through creation and redemption. As I said before, fornication is the major cause of unwanted pregnancies and abortions.

The best way to prevent abortion is the teach the gospel, and God's laws. Strict obedience to the command not to commit adultery, which is all sex outside of marriage, will stop all abortions except accidental ones and those where the mothers life is in mortal danger.

Abortions done because of fornication just perpetuates that sin and the sin of murder, by killing the unborn. Those who take part in abortion are doing the work of the enemy, no matter their "justifications."

1Pe 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walks about, seeking whom he may devour:

Satan is a cruel oppressor, his object is to destroy all human life. Abortion is one way he inspires his human agents to worship him as he certainly is the god of this world. When one obeys Satan, what is he doing?

Exo 20:3 You shall have no other gods before me.

Mat 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other.

That person then who comitts abortion is worshiping Satan by destroying life. That is what Adam and Eve did when they disobeyed God by eating the forbidden fruit; they chose Satan over God, which is what all sin is;the transgression of the law.

It matters not whether one even believes Satan exists as he would much prefer it if people doubt he does exist, because that means they deny the Bible.

Choose life, not death!

[Nic Samojluk]

Nic wrote:

Quote:

Is what I have written contrary to the clear teaching of Scripture?

It is not contrary to scripture; abortion is not mentioned in scripture. God is silent about it.

You are right!There is no specific reference to abortion in the Bible. Likewise, there is no condemnation for the evil practice of slavery, genocide, and polygamy. Why do you keep using the argument from silence, since it proves nothing? Can't you find a better argument?

[BobRyan]

You are right!There is no specific reference to abortion in the Bible. ...

Exodus 21:22-23 is an explicit reference to abortion in the form of inadvertantly caused during a fight between two men. In that case the one causing the abortion is to be killed "a life for a life" if the unborn child is indeed killed.

What is not listed is the act of deliberately TRYING to kill the unborn child.

Since there is no higher penalty than "life for life" I suppose that the more deliberate sin can only get that same penalty.

in Christ,

Bob

[Nic Samojluk]

Millions of people are out of work right now!!!! Where have you been??? Contrary to your belief, we did NOT kill off an entire generation. Abortion was NOT the cause of our welfare system (quite the contrary), nor was it the cause for social security, Medicare and healthcare problems in the United States. Land of mercy, listen to yourself.

Who said that abortion caused the welfare, medicare, and healthcare system? Are you taking the time to read with care what I have written?

What I said was that most of those 50 milliomn we killed would be productive members of society today and would help stabilize the economy and lessen the economic crisis we are experiencing now. We decided to kill 50 million unborn Americans at the worst time, when their work would be needed to support the retiring boom generation. We are reaping what we sowed. There is no free lunch and we must face the consequences of our crime.

[Nic Samojluk]

The issue of slavery in the 1800's was essentially the controversy about the "value of human life" the same as we see today with the idea of murdering children prior to their birth. (In many cases JUST prior to it - given that 5 and 6 month old unborn children are known to survive if taken care of)

But (innexplicably) some argue that they are free to murder children as long as those children are not yet breathing fresh air outside the womb.

Ex 21:22-23 here we see the rule in the case of someone who kills a child that is not yet breathing fresh air outside of the womb. The rule stated is "a life for a life". That person was to die.

I have to "imagine" that those same people who "could not see" the problem with killing the unborn children prior to bringing up this inconvenient detail - will continue to "not see" - but I think the unbiased objective reader will find this text "instructive".

Here then is condemnation even of unintentional abortion in scripture.

Does Ellen White agree with the Bible on this point?

If the father would become acquainted with physical law, he might better understand his obligations and responsibilities. He would see that he had been guilty of almost murdering his children, by suffering so many burdens to come upon the mother, compelling her to labor beyond her strength before their birth, in order to obtain means to leave for them. {2SM 429-430}

in Christ,

Bob

Thanks Bob! May the good Lord richly bless you for sticking to what is right even though the heavens fall!

[Nic Samojluk]

Exo 21:22 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that there is a miscarriage, and yet no mischief follows: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.

Exo 21:23 And if any mischief follows, then you shall give life for life,

I believe its saying in case of miscarriage the penalty is as the husband or judge determines. "Mischief" that may follow that, appears to be the death of the mother and then it become a matter of the death penalty. This appears to be not an intentional abortion, but irresponsible violent actions.

Yes! Isn't it strange that the Bible calls for punishment for an unintentional harm done to the unborn, but modern Adventists are arguing that the INTENTIONAL killing of the pre-born is morally acceptable and morally neutral?

[Nic Samojluk]

Exo 21:22 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that there is a miscarriage, and yet no mischief follows: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.

Exo 21:23 And if any mischief follows, then you shall give life for life,

Originally Posted By: Steve Billiter

I believe its saying in case of miscarriage the penalty is as the husband or judge determines. "Mischief" that may follow that, appears to be the death of the mother and then it become a matter of the death penalty. This appears to be not an intentional abortion, but irresponsible violent actions.

Actually the oppposite is the case. If there is NO injury to the child at all - then the damage is whatever the husband or judge decides.

In your rendering above "if there is injury to the woman" -- it would make it a crime to kill or injur only PREGNANT women -- as if killing and injuring the others is "fine". Certainly that is NOT the point being addressed (when is it ok to kill women - as if the answer is -- "well not when they are pregnant".)

Furthermore - it makes the entire text pointless since there was already a law to deal with "killing people" accidently vs deliberatly that applied fully to women. The new element in Ex 21:22-23 is the case of the "unborn".

The text explicitly references the extent of injury to the woman "so that she gives birth prematurely".

Not "So that she dies and after being dead - gives birth prematurely" - because that would mean it is ok to kill even pregnant women as long as they do not give birth once they are dead or just as they are dying.

Every effort to find a way out of this text referencing the danger to the child that was subject to miscarriage - turns the text into mush as it turns out.

So back to the text - if there IS injury to the child -- then the rule for damages is set by God as follows --

Originally Posted By: Exodus 21

22"If men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she gives birth prematurely, yet there is no injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman's husband may demand of him, and he shall pay as the judges decide.

23"But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life,

24eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,

25burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.

Pretty hard to revise that to "if there is NO injury do whatever seems best to you and if there IS injury do whatever seems best to you".

in Christ,

Bob

Great post and great arguments! Keep this up!

[Nic Samojluk]

Originally Posted By: rudywoofs

I really would like you to understand that I am NOT for abortions except when a mother's life is at risk, or in the case of rape or incest. But I won't judge anyone's decision to have an abortion.

Pro-lifers need to understand that there would be a vast number of deformed children who would always need to be institutionalized and never live a normal life if not for abortion. Are you willing to take care of *those* children?

Abortion is a difficult decision for a woman to make. Don't make it any harder for her by Bible thumping her. Or forcing her to go to a back alley to obtain an abortion. At least have the compassion to let her go to a place, SDA or not, where a safe procedure can be done.

A deformed child deserves a chance at life just like everyone else. Only God has the prerogative to say whether one will live or die.

The womans false argument that it is her body, and she can choose to abort a life that is not even her own is not true either.God is the owner of all created works including humans and angels. We do not even own ourselves, we are His through creation and redemption. As I said before, fornication is the major cause of unwanted pregnancies and abortions.

The best way to prevent abortion is the teach the gospel, and God's laws. Strict obedience to the command not to commit adultery, which is all sex outside of marriage, will stop all abortions except accidental ones and those where the mothers life is in mortal danger.

Abortions done because of fornication just perpetuates that sin and the sin of murder, by killing the unborn. Those who take part in abortion are doing the work of the enemy, no matter their "justifications."

1Pe 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walks about, seeking whom he may devour:

Satan is a cruel oppressor, his object is to destroy all human life. Abortion is one way he inspires his human agents to worship him as he certainly is the god of this world. When one obeys Satan, what is he doing?

Exo 20:3 You shall have no other gods before me.

Mat 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other.

That person then who comitts abortion is worshiping Satan by destroying life. That is what Adam and Eve did when they disobeyed God by eating the forbidden fruit; they chose Satan over God, which is what all sin is;the transgression of the law.

It matters not whether one even believes Satan exists as he would much prefer it if people doubt he does exist, because that means they deny the Bible.

Choose life, not death!

I can't avoid the temptation to shout a big AMEN after reading your post!