Liberal or Conservative ?

[Guest]

That's true. And I'm glad you pointed that out.

[John317]

Here are two paragraphs that show Ellen White used "conservative" to refer to those who make compromises with "the enemy."

Quote:

There are those who will, through hasty, unadvised moves, betray the cause of God into the enemy's power. There will be people who will seek to be revenged, who will become apostates and betray Christ in the person of His saints. All need to learn discretion; then there is danger on the other hand of being conservative, of giving away to the enemy in concession. Our brethren and sisters should be very cautious in this matter for the honor of God. . . . The two armies will stand distinct and separate, and this distinction will be so marked that many who shall be convinced of truth will come on the side of God's commandment-keeping people.--Manuscript 6, 1889. Christ Triumphant (1999), page 329, paragraph 5

Quote:

The great work of reform must go forward. The Health Institute has been established at Battle Creek to relieve the afflicted, to disseminate light, to awaken the spirit of inquiry, and to advance reform. This institution is conducted upon different principles than any other hygienic institution in the land. Money is not the great object with its friends and conductors. This institution is conducted from a conscientious, religious standpoint, aiming to carry out the principles of Bible hygiene. Most institutions of the kind are established upon different principles, and are conservative, with the object to meet the popular class half way, and shape their course in that manner that they will receive the greatest patronage, and the most money. The Health Reform and the Health Institute (1872), page 8, paragraph 1

[bonnie]

That is from the KJV - See http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Philippians+4&version=KJV

By the way, do a search of EGW to see what positive things she has to say about being conservative.

And maybe compare her views on moderation in all things...

And finally, take into account that she describes the Pharisees as seeing Jesus as being "too liberal."

I'm just saying...

The exact phrasing from my New King James version reads

Let your gentleness be known to all men. The Lord is at hand.

My original King James does read as you say.

If I am to understand it as you say,then all things means include a list of what I believe you should not do,moderately or otherwise.

[John317]

Let your gentleness be known to all men. The Lord is at hand.

The word is literally, "lenience," and may be translated as "your gentle patience," "sweet reasonableness," "forbearance," "your being satisfied with less than your due."

[Dr. Shane]

Originally Posted By: bonnie

...Can you show me where it says a SDA should be a moderate?...

"Let your moderation be known unto all men." - Phillipians 4:5

That's a good one.

[Tom Wetmore]

...Which reinforces the idea of being moderate...

[Tom Wetmore]

...It would be a mistake, then, to assume that her use of the word was the same as ours today. As a matter of fact, Ellen White's use of the word conservative was quite different from the way it is commonly used in our own day.

Actually, no it wasn't all that different.

Yes, I have heard "conservatives" try to justify their attitudes and narrow perspectives(and yes, that IS a key meaning as used by EGW - see below) by claiming the word meaning has changed since the days of EGW. But I checked in Oxford's of the etymology of the word and its meaning has not changed since the 19th Century usage by EGW. (The same for liberal...) The word means the same thing now as it did then. It may be used to talk about different issues and ideas, which should not be confused with what the word means.

What you may be confusing is the issues and ideas to which conservatives cling, which over time will change, and the essential meaning of the word which goes to attitude and personality characteristics of being conservative. That essential meaning has not changed. And conservatives in EGW's day were narrow-minded, stuck in their ways,traditionalists, unwilling to change or consider new ideas, and resistant to any progressive idea - just like conservatives are today whether they be political conservatives or religious conservatives.

And that was the point I was making.

Quote:

Elder M, as president of the ----- Conference, you have shown by your general management that you are unworthy of the trust reposed in you. You have shown that you are conservative, and that your ideas are narrow. You have not done one half what you might have done had you had the true spirit of the work. - 5T370

Quote:

When the twelve were sent forth, they were restricted to the tribes of Israel, lest their missionary efforts should create prejudice among the Jews, whose teaching had been of such a character as to make them narrow in their ideas in regard to the extension of the gospel to other nationalities. The disciples themselves could scarcely comprehend the fact that the blessings of God were for the Gentiles as well as for the Jews, and had to unlearn many lessons that made them conservative in their views concerning the mission and work of the Messiah. - ST, December 10, 1894 par. 1

Tom

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

...It would be a mistake, then, to assume that her use of the word was the same as ours today. As a matter of fact, Ellen White's use of the word conservative was quite different from the way it is commonly used in our own day.

Actually, no it wasn't all that different.

Yes, I have heard "conservatives" try to justify their attitudes and narrow perspectives(and yes, that IS a key meaning as used by EGW - see below) by claiming the word meaning has changed since the days of EGW.....

And conservatives in EGW's day were narrow-minded, stuck in their ways,traditionalists, unwilling to change or consider new ideas, and resistant to any progressive idea - just like conservatives are today whether they be political conservatives or religious conservatives.

And that was the point I was making.

OK. You sure made that point clear enough all right.

But now which are you-- conservative or liberal? That's the point that isn't too clear.

[bonnie]

Quote:

OK. You sure made that point clear enough all right.

But now which are you-- conservative or liberal? That's the point that isn't too clear.

I am curious what is meant by "moderate" in this instance.

[Dr. Shane]

I am a moderate. To me, that means I look at each issue separately regardless if it is politics or religion.

Here are some of the positions I support:

I am a vegetarian but eat fish and limit dairy products.

I am very much against materialism - keeping up with the Jones'. But I have no problem with women using inexpensive jewelry.

I am very much against Hollywood and worldly movies and prime-time TV but support Christian television and movies enthusiastically.

I avoid drinking regular coffee but drink decaf.

I am very enthusiastic about contemporary Christian music.

I do not believe we are saved by works but believe that works are part of our relationship with God.

Politically my positions tend to be moderate too.

I am pro-choice but believe government should adopt policy to discourage abortion.

I support the idea of health-care co-ops but do not support government-run health care insurance.

I favor environmental regulation to curb greenhouse gasses but do not hurt economic growth - like building more nuclear power plants and electric high-speed rail. I do not support cap-and-trade.

I support opening ANWAR and off-shore for oil exploration but believe oil companies should have to pay into an alternative-energy research fund with a portion of all profits coming out of such sources.

I support individual gun-ownership but believe all gun owners should have to pass a gun safety class.

[Woody]

Quote:

I am a moderate. To me, that means I look at each issue separately regardless if it is politics or religion.

Do you honestly think that others don't do the same? It just so happens that one party is usually on the Biblical and true side of matters. To compromise that just because you want to be seen as a moderate ... does not bode well in my mind. Voting for Obama when it was clearly the wrong thing to do ... just to be seen as a moderate? That's not any better than if someone were to vote for conservative issues even though they didn't believe in conservative issues.

[CyberGuy]

You forgot one Redwood

If conservatives are to fat they quite eating to much sugar.

Liberals want to put a heavy tax on sugar.

It is being discussed by the Obama health care people.

[Woody]

Yes. Exactly. At least one person here understands.

[Dr. Shane]

It just so happens that one party is usually on the Biblical and true side of matters.

I can't disagree strong enough. On most issues, politicians agree on the goal. They just disagree on the method to get there.

[Woody]

You forgot one Redwood

If conservatives are to fat they quite eating to much sugar.

Liberals want to put a heavy tax on sugar.

It is being discussed by the Obama health care people.

Yes. They do try to legislate their brand of morality. They write about the Immorality of Sugar eating and then tax it.

[bonnie]

I am a moderate. To me, that means I look at each issue separately regardless if it is politics or religion.

Here are some of the positions I support:

I am a vegetarian but eat fish and limit dairy products.

[Dr. Shane]

Quote:

Then you are not a vegetarian. Being a vegetarian means you do not eat meat.

Google the term "semi-vegetarian"

"Semi-vegetarianism is a term used to describe the practice of excluding some meat (particularly red meat) from the diet while still consuming limited amounts of poultry, fish, and/or seafood...

Types

• Flexitarianism - Mostly avoiding all meat, but eating it under some situations.

• Pollotarianism - Mammalian meat, fish, and seafood is excluded, but chicken or other poultry is not.

• Pescetarianism - Mammalian meat and poultry is excluded, but fish and seafood are not.

Most vegetarians who don't eat any form of meat, fish or poultry do not believe in 'Semi-Vegetarianism'."

It is noteworthy that in the Adventist health study, vegetarians that eat fish was one of the groups they studied and also the group with the longest life span.

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Why do you want the government to adopt a policy to discourage abortion? If it is not a child to be protected who cares how many abortions there are? There is nothing to discourage. It is a inconvenience to the mother to be so get rid of it.

I did not say it wasn't a child. I believe life begins at conception. One is wrong to assume all pro-choice people are in favor of abortion. I actively support crisis pregnancy centers with my $$$. Crisis pregnancy centers help women in crisis choose life instead of abortion. There are many pro-choice people that send $$$ to them.

I am pro-choice because nations that ban abortion like Mexico and Kenya do not have any lower abortion rates than the US does. Nations the allow abortion but use public policy to discourage it, like the Netherlands, have lower abortion rates than the US or Mexico. This tells us that if our goal is to reduce the number of abortions, the way to do that is to allow it to be legal and use public policy to discourage it. It is a moderate position and one that neither conservatives or liberals like.

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Why should oil companies responsible for using their profits for alternative energy research?

Because these resources belong to the public. The oil companies want to drill for the oil and pump it out but the oil itself belongs to the taxpayer - it is not on private property.

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That is not moderate,that is NRA

No, the NRA does not support mandatory safety training except for minors. The NRA would take the position that there should be no prerequisite to a person gaining their right to bear arms.

[bonnie]

Quote:

[color:#000099]"Semi-vegetarianism is a term used to describe the practice of excluding some meat (particularly red meat) from the diet while still consuming limited amounts of poultry, fish, and/or seafood...

You didn't say you were a semi-vegetarian

Quote:

I did not say it wasn't a child. I believe life begins at conception. One is wrong to assume all pro-choice people are in favor of abortion. I actively support crisis pregnancy centers with my $$$. Crisis pregnancy centers help women in crisis choose life instead of abortion. There are many pro-choice people that send $$$ to them.

If it is a child in your opinion it is hard to understand the pro-choice.

Pro-choice to kill a child???

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allow it to be legal and use public policy to discourage it. It is a moderate position and one that neither conservatives or liberals like.

Public policy does not discourage abortions.

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Why should oil companies responsible for using their profits for alternative energy research?

Because these resources belong to the public. The oil companies want to drill for the oil and pump it out but the oil itself belongs to the taxpayer - it is not on private property.

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No, the NRA does not support mandatory safety training except for minors. The NRA would take the position that there should be no prerequisite to a person gaining their right to bear arms.

Last person I knew that belonged to the NRA was fully in favor of gun safety and talked as if that were in keeping with the NRA

[Guest]

Public policy does not discourage abortions.

You're right about that. Anyone who believes that has been duped.

[Dr. Shane]

You didn't say you were a semi-vegetarian