Noone is perfect

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

Would you say that the gift of righteousness given by Jesus to the willing suppliant is a filthy rag?

As far as towards our Salvation? Certainly anything other than the blood of Jesus is as filthy rags towards our Salvation. Of course you have heard me say this dozens of times on this forum.

Then I'm assuming when you receive the gift of righteousness from Jesus, since filthy rags are quite distasteful to most discerning individuals, you are quite willing not only to express your displeasure at such a dirty gift, but you are willing to do whatever is necessary to insure those filthy rags are not part of your experience.

"But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God," Romans 3:21-23 NKJV

Blessings!

[Tom Wetmore]

Would you say that the gift of righteousness given by Jesus to the willing suppliant is a filthy rag?

That righteousness given as a gift is of course very different - and makes all the difference in the world. Jesus' perfect righteousness is ours by faith. So our soiled "righteousness" really does not matter in the final analysis since it is his righteousness that saves us, not our own. And it costs us nothing. It is free. Nobody can put a price on it.

Quote:

"“Ho! Everyone who thirsts,Come to the waters; And you who have no money, Come, buy and eat. Yes, come, buy wine and milk Without money and without price." Isaiah 55:2 NKJV

As an aside, sort of, the above text from Isaiah which you quoted is a key to understanding the most frequently misunderstood text, Revelation 13:17, about the mark of the beast that comes with a price tag, so to speak. Too many mistakenly think this phrase "that no man might buy or sell" is to be taken literally in some earthly commercial manifestation that believers won't be able to buy their groceries without the "mark". But that phrase is to be taken as symbolic of something spiritual. What it is talking about is the heresy of a "righteousness" or salvation that is not free, that comes at a price. It is the counterfeit salvation offered by the false lamb that has to be earned by your own labors and paid for by your own blood. But it is all a fraud and gets you nothing. It is not the currency of heaven.

The true righteousness is free. Just as Jesus said when he was here and repeated to the church in Laodicea, "I counsel you to buy from me..."(See Isaiah 55:2).

And by the way, in the message to one of the other seven churches Jesus alludes to the soiled garments "righteousness" spoken of by Isaiah. And he again explains the solution. Look for it. The video was a modern day illustration of the mistake of that church in Revelation.

Tom

[Woody]

Thanks Tom.

[Marie]

If that is what it is teaching then it does not follow truth.

We show God our love by keeping His Commandments.

We need to "be ready" for the Lord's Coming.

We cannot follow Him on our own.

But if we believe God cannot make us a overcomer "with" Christ in our life, then we are laying claims that Satan laid against the Law of God and against God and Christ.

No man is perfect (never sinned)

But that does not mean God does not want, and cannot make us total follows of His Word.

[Guest]

If that is what it is teaching then it does not follow truth.

We show God our love by keeping His Commandments.

We need to "be ready" for the Lord's Coming.

We cannot follow Him on our own.

But if we believe God cannot make us a overcomer "with" Christ in our life, then we are laying claims that Satan laid against the Law of God and against God and Christ.

No man is perfect (never sinned)

But that does not mean God does not want, and cannot make us total follows of His Word.

Amen

[LifeHiscost]

Originally Posted By: Marie

If that is what it is teaching then it does not follow truth.

We show God our love by keeping His Commandments.

We need to "be ready" for the Lord's Coming.

We cannot follow Him on our own.

But if we believe God cannot make us a overcomer "with" Christ in our life, then we are laying claims that Satan laid against the Law of God and against God and Christ.

No man is perfect (never sinned)

But that does not mean God does not want, and cannot make us total follows of His Word.

Amen

Agreed! OTOH what is possible for God to accomplish for us today, according to the Word, is not received in fulness by man in their fallen condition. I'm not faulting God's power to give us all that is necessary for salvation, with righteousness included in the soul. Just that man does not appropriate that purity until Jesus cleanses the soul at His coming.

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us."1 John 1:9-10 KJV

The Word, being true, until we receive our change at the coming of Christ, confession is needed.

"...lo, I tell you a secret; we indeed shall not all sleep, and we all shall be changed;

in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, in the last trumpet, for it shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we -- we shall be changed: "

1 Corinthians 15:51,52 YLT

OTOH, there is another Scripture necessary to be considered when determining just when we are clean enough to enter the kingdom.

"Even so it is that Christ, having been offered to take upon Himself and bear as a burden the sins of many once and once for all, will appear a second time, not to carry any burden of sin nor to deal with sin, but to bring to full salvation those who are [eagerly, constantly, and patiently] waiting for and expecting Him."

Hebrews 9:28 AMP

"so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation."

Hebrews 9:28 NKJV

Blessings!

[LifeHiscost]

Too many mistakenly think this phrase "that no man might buy or sell" is to be taken literally in some earthly commercial manifestation that believers won't be able to buy their groceries without the "mark". But that phrase is to be taken as symbolic of something spiritual.

Tom

Interesting that you would believe that way, considering the political and religious climate of today and the fact that in the last few years we have lost more liberties in the U.S. than in the previous 200 years.

Makes me wonder what you believe about these next quotes.

"And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs coming out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. For they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

“Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.” "Revelation 16:13-15 NKJV

"It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation. All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

If anyone has an ear, let him hear. He who leads into captivity shall go into captivity; he who kills with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.Revelation 13:7-11 NKJV

"Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus."Revelation 14:12 KJV

"

By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation [the United States] will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {Mar 190.1}

Through the two great errors, the immortality of the soul and Sunday sacredness, Satan will bring the people under his deceptions. While the former lays the foundation of spiritualism, the latter creates a bond of sympathy with Rome. The Protestants of the United States will be foremost in stretching their hands across the gulf to grasp the hand of spiritualism; they will reach over the abyss to clasp hands with the Roman power; and under the influence of this threefold union, this country will follow in the steps of Rome in trampling on the rights of conscience. . . . {Mar 190.2}

Papists, Protestants, and worldling will alike accept the form of godliness without the power, and they will see in this union a grand movement for the conversion of the world and the ushering in of the long-expected millennium. {Mar 190.3}

When our nation [the United States] shall so abjure the principles of its government as to enact a Sunday law, Protestantism will in this act join hands with popery; it will be nothing else than giving life to the tyranny which has long been eagerly watching its opportunity to spring again into active despotism. {Mar 190.4}"

underlined mine, brackets theirs LHC

Blessings!

[olger]

Originally Posted By: LifeHiscost

I'm with you' date=' Rudy! Sorry Stan [/quote']

The title of this thread is the point of the video. It illustrates the utter futility of the quest of those last generation perfection-is-our-goal Adventists.

This was what Jesus was up against with the Pharisees who were famously striving for perfect obedience to the law. In particular they were zealously striving for Israel to have that one perfect day - the Sabbath. The belief was that if Israel had one perfectly kept Sabbath, the Messiah would come and restore God's Kingdom here on earth. (Sounds familiar, doesn't it!)

As I have often said, On my very best day, wearing my very best suit, doing my very best work, smiling at everyone I meet, etc. - my righteousness is nothing but filthy rags, or as a more literal translation would put it, "soiled underwear."

The wrong orientation we have, that the Pharisees had, is that not doing anything wrong, ie not breaking any commandment was perfection. But Jesus said that is not enough. You must do good perfectly. That is righteousness as God sees it.

That is the whole basis of the perfection as a shallow goal in my signature line.

Tom

Such a perspective, rooted in the failures of yesteryear, misses the eschatological purpose of the future (last generation).

olger

[Tom Wetmore]

So how is your personal perfection project progressing?

[Woody]

So how is your personal perfection project progressing?

This is a good question. I will look forward to a serious answer. Although I doubt we will get one.

[Tom Wetmore]

Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore

Too many mistakenly think this phrase "that no man might buy or sell" is to be taken literally in some earthly commercial manifestation that believers won't be able to buy their groceries without the "mark". But that phrase is to be taken as symbolic of something spiritual.

Tom

Interesting that you would believe that way, considering the political and religious climate of today and the fact that in the last few years we have lost more liberties in the U.S. than in the previous 200 years.

Makes me wonder what you believe about these next quotes.

In interpreting Revelation one must generally assume a symbolic spiritual meaning unless it is clearly meant as literal. In looking for the symbolic meaning one should first let Scripture be its own interpretor. The search for the meaning of a word or phrase starts by looking at how it was used elsewhere. Think of the search as moving in every wider circles moving away from the one you are look at. This may mean that the meaning may show up a few verses or chapters away in Revelation itself (in this case we find what Jesus said to Laodicea) and then moving on to other Scripture. Most all of the symbols of Revelation are derived from OT imagery. That is how the original recipients of Revelation would have understood it and the spiritual meaning we should get from it.

[olger]

So how is your personal perfection project progressing?

(speaking gently) That's none of your business Thomas. That's God's business and He is able.

victorious regards,

ol

ger

[SivartM]

Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore

So how is your personal perfection project progressing?

(speaking gently) That's none of your business Thomas. That's God's business and He is able.

victorious regards,

ol

ger

Good answer.

I really think that the debates about last generation perfection are rather pointless. I'll just follow where God leads me and not worry about whether or not I have to reach some indefinite goal of "perfection".

[Tom Wetmore]

Ger,

Since personal is painful (which I intended as the basis of the rhetorical question**...) perhaps you would enlighten us as to "the eschatological purpose of the future (last generation)" that my previously expressed perspective apparently missed.

Tom

** A rhetorical question does not require one to answer, but expects one to only think.

[Haldog]

The SDA church holds perfection out there as a golden carrot, teaching us through the schools and church that we will someday obtain it, MUST obtain it, if we are to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. ellen herself taught it.

Yet, God, through Jesus and the bible, never ever ever taught that. In fact, He calls the 10 commandments a "ministry of death".

The law acts as a tutor until I reach some maturity (saved), then with the Holy Spirit in me as a born-again Christian, I am no longer under the law. My spirit is perfect and will remain perfect. My carnal flesh will "break" the law for sure, but when God looks at me He sees Jesus in His perfection. That is how I achieve perfection, because and through what Jesus did and who He is. It has nothing to do with how my flesh "keeps" the law, that is just to point out how badly I need Jesus. Jesus, the sweetest name I know.

[Gerr]

Perhaps we have misunderstood what perfection it's talking about?

Perfection of behavior? Will never happen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Perfection of faith/commitment/trust so that though the heavens fall we shall never be moved?

That's within the reach of every believer which end time believers MUST have when

everything that can be shaken WILL be shaken!!!

[SivartM]

Matthew 5:44-48

"But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? And if you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."

I think the Bible is pretty clear that perfection is loving as God loves.

[Woody]

Excellent Sivart. Our focus needs to be on love rather than works.

[Stan]

Be it love, works or whatever, we just need to do the right thing.

There is a difference between Christian Perfection and Christian Excellence..

[Tom Wetmore]

Christian Excellence! vs. Christ's Perfection!

"And now I will show you the most excellent way." - (preface to the great love chapter, 1 Corinthians 13.)

"And I want you to stress these things, so that those who have trusted in God may be careful to devote themselves to doing what is good. These things are excellent and profitable for everyone." - Titus 3:8

You just have to read this in context. It immediately follows what Paul calls a "trustworthy saying" -

Quote:

But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life.

And Paul follows the statement about the excellent and profitable basis for doing what is good with this:

Quote:

But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless.

[olger]

Be it love, works or whatever, we just need to do the right thing.

I rather like this succinct statement, Stan.

og

[Gail]

Is not that what they call nobility? I think so...

[LifeHiscost]

Matthew 5:44-48

"But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? And if you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."

I think the Bible is pretty clear that perfection is loving as God loves.

And Jesus being the express image of the Father, it is gratifying and pleasurable for the believer to work for Him.

" Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven." Matthew 5:16 KJV

"Jesus answered them, “Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?”"John 10:32 NKJV

"For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.Ephesians 2:10 NKJV

"But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works."James 2:18 NKJV

Blessings!